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Backyard Breeder vs Reputable Breeder

Discussion in 'Doberman Breeders' started by FredC, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. kaloric

    kaloric Notable member

    If they fail to meet the breed standard or can't do what they were bred to do as the result of a disease or other fault, I would indeed. If they are up to standard and capable, then it would seem that you may be artificially constraining the gene pool when they could be leveraged through your own breeding program to combat these diseases. Just a thought.

    Progress is progress, and I respect your forthrightness. That's at least some form of accountability. I still am wondering at what point it's not enough to just not breed affected animals, but not breed any positive ones at all. No crystal balls, I know, but past a point, it does seem there should be an absolute goal beyond which no more compromises will be made.

    Her parents are purportedly clear, as I recall. As others have unfortunately learned, it's still important to verify to make sure you didn't get a bill of goods. Not that it would particularly even matter if she's a carrier, it's hardly going to derail my plans to not breed her.

    There is negligible chance of such a catastrophe if folks are making extremely calculated decisions to drop the affected dogs from programs, avoid breeding more by pairing carriers, and then ceasing to breed carriers. That last step is the most important, while it is easy to reduce the incidence of affected animals, having many carriers in circulation will guarantee it will continue to cost everyone who is conscientious about the health of their Dobermans a bit of money and that there will continue to be an unnecessary component in the minefield of diseases.

    Inferior? Perhaps, when compared to a comparable animal that doesn't carry a genetic defect. Failure? I'd kind of assume she's up-to-standard, otherwise you wouldn't care so much to keep her in your program. If she has proven to be extremely healthy otherwise and her parents/grandparents weren't overly predisposed to serious health issues, especially in the area of cardio health, then yes, I would tend to agree that vWD carrier status is probably not worth worrying about. But it's one of those situations where, if you start with a known defect and then toss in the potential for an unknown predisposition or two, you'd be firmly in "not bettering the breed" territory. Again, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but there are usually better choices than starting out with the odds slightly against you and the betterment of the breed's health.
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  2. MicheleM

    MicheleM Active Member


    It's funny when things are so close to you It becomes part of your life. Deafness in Dobermans is another genetic disease. Echo our black girl was born deaf and her breeder was looking for a good home for her. We flew echo here as a young puppy and I've learned more from her than any Doberman I've ever had in my life.
    Yes this is another genetic disease of Dobermans and because of Echos litter mate and her breeder they have discovered the gene marker for deafness. Echos litter mate was also born deaf and was euthanized because of several health problems and she was given to the university of Calgary that was doing a study on deafness with dobes. There will soon be a genetic test for this which is a wonderful breakthrough.! From what I have heard and may not be correct, one dog in many pedigrees is responsible for deafness in this breed.
    Echo is two and a half and is a smart, humorous little soul who makes us laugh and we always have to remind our selves that she can't hear. Deafness, another health problem I consider so much more important than VW. Oh by the way, Echos parents are both clear!

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  3. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Thankfully you are not my judge.

    But you specifically said carriers were defective and a failure but it OK either way with your dog???

    Again based on what you are saying is the only right way to proceed you can't now excuse your dog or Rayna regardless of other unknown outsides. In fact after making such a big deal about it you have not even tested your dog??? You said Pet puppies were inferior, Vwd carriers and affecteds are inferior and should not have been bred if the breeder was responsible.

    Now you say if they are up to standard - Again pet puppies are in most cases very up to standard but since we don't have a perfect dog anywhere some are better than others but far far from inferior. If you don't have a show or working home many show prospects have gone as pets to loving homes who appreciate the quality of the breeding program. To the untrained and unknowledgable they would not be able to tell the difference in the pet puppies and the show puppies.
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  4. Sosthenes

    Sosthenes Distinguished Member Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Echo is a beautiful girl and looks the picture of health. Thanks for telling us about her.
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  5. Sosthenes

    Sosthenes Distinguished Member Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I'm still looking for the answer to my question.....Did vWD in the Doberman come as a cross over from humans. If this was found in humans in 1924 the breed would only have been 34 or so years old. Also, it would seem that there are other health concerns that should be cause for worry more so than vWD, but that is just my opinion.
  6. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    I did answer the question see page 3
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  7. kaloric

    kaloric Notable member

    D4E's answer is spot-on-- most of these genetic diseases are just things that happen to mammals, or to living things in general. HyPP has been known in humans for some time, too. While animals look really different on the outside, our physiology is extremely similar and the ways in which things fail is all about the same. In other words, vWD and HyPP in humans are homologous to the corresponding diseases in animals (the first is due to faulty clotting proteins in blood, the latter is due to defective muscle cell membranes), though their root causes may be different.

    This is why genetic modification not only works, but it's troubling if the modified crops or animals are not also damaged so as to be sterile. You have Monsanto's patented GMO crops that are supposed to be sterile, but have somehow been breeding with conventional crops, not only risking the genome of the natural crops, but also have Monsanto trying to sue some of the farmers whose crops their GMOs have polluted for patent infringement. A lot of what they have done in those GMOs is that they've taken bits and pieces of other plants' genome and spliced them into corn. It could go really bad if any of their modifications are discovered to have extremely detrimental effects on humans or animals, say the pest resistance genes code for a protein that gets linked with birth defects. If such a thing were to happen, it wouldn't be a simple matter of just wiping-out the GMO crops if those crops have cross-polinated and polluted the natural corn genome, it could leave humanity in a pretty bad place.

    Similar techniques work with animals, there have been several animal genomes modified recently that cause lactating females to produce exotic pharmaceutical or plant compounds in their milk, which is easier than synthesizing them in a lab. It's only a matter of knowing how to splice in genes that will use existing cellular machinery to make it do what you want to.
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  8. Sosthenes

    Sosthenes Distinguished Member Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Sorry Susan, I didn't see it. Thanks.
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  9. Sosthenes

    Sosthenes Distinguished Member Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    We have an out of control government allowing out of control chemical companies experiment with our future. I am aware of Monsanto and the damage they have caused the people of the world.
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  10. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    No problem just did not want you to think I did not respond at least or that you were ignored.

    Proof positive the while genetics can work in a test tube it does not always apply to real life. I always remember the quote in Jurassic Park - LIFE WILL FIND A WAY. That is why you can't try to shove breeding do's and don't's into a test tube and make all else wrong. Way too many unanswered and unproven unknowns.
    • Like Like x 3
  11. Sosthenes

    Sosthenes Distinguished Member Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Now I see it. Thanks.
  12. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    In light of all the new puppies we have I felt perhaps we needed to revive this post as people still have a problem deciphering a good breeder from a not so good breeder.

    If you paid a cheaper price but then couldn't get AKC reg papers - did you win???

    If you paid a cheaper price and then spend $2,000 on vet bills and cropping - did you win???

    If you went to a BYB and then had a problem but they quit responding to you because they did not care - did you win???

    If you paid the same price as what you could have gotten from a good breeder - did you win???

    Guys the internet affords a wealth of info at our fingertips - when I read some of the threads I know there was precious little research done.

    When I read that a "breeder" using the term loosely let someone have a puppy that had very small children I have to wonder.

    There is so much that goes behind a good pedigree and AKC registration along with a breeder who brees to better the breed not just proudce puppies.

    How do we get the word out?? Why is it not working??? Whose responsiblity is it to educate themselves first???
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  13. BradysMom

    BradysMom Hot Topics Subscriber

    I always wonder what BYB meant! lol
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  14. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Very good points ^
    Just to reiterate, I have the perfect examples living under my roof. Greta who came from a first time breeder, a person that had no idea about pedigrees or how to put them together. She thought it would be fun to let her children watch puppies being born and make a little money. She had no idea that she should screen potential owners and let the pups go to the first people that came up with the money. Well, the people that came up with the money for Greta were a horrible choice but that is another story. My Greta just turned 7 years old this month. I have had her since she was 9 months old. I have probably invested a college education in this girl. She has just about everything you could have including Addison's, which has proven quite costly.
    Once I fell in love with the doberman, I fell into the hands of a very reputable breeder by chance. That was God smiling down on me because I had no experience with breeders having always own rescues. From that breeder, our own D4E, by the way came Drake. A beautiful healthy boy that is full of the hoodlum gene that D4E is so famous for. His vet bills for this year? That would be a big fat zero, Greta is sitting at almost $7000. So what will I do when it is time for a puppy?? I think I already answered that, don't you?
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  15. MicheleM

    MicheleM Active Member

    Very well said D4! I'm hoping that somebody is reading this thread and learning and may think twice about the cheap Doberman puppies that they found in the paper.
    Young children and Dobermans concerns me. There was a video posted this week on this forum with a toddler pulling a Dobermans ears and I found it very unsettling. If a Doberman is in a family with small children those children need to respect that dog and be taught rules and Boundaries.
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  16. Ataro

    Ataro Notable member

    1) People who are not into showing or working have no use for a piece of paper. In fact, some breeders in Australia who are not selling show prospects to buyers that they intend to mentor with their first litter only provide pet owners with a photocopy of the parents' pedigrees to prevent people abusing the system and using bloodlines to market puppies if they decide to breed without papers because their dogs are on limited registration.

    2) How much you spend on your dog's health is individual. Some will spend upwards of ten thousand to prolong their dog's life, I personally would not. If it was not something curable, I would not spend endless amounts of money on palliative care. Maybe that makes me sound harsh, but it's the truth. I would do the same were it my own health at stake.

    3) I can say that I have never needed or asked for breeder support.

    4)... there's a limit to the amount that I am willing to pay, I don't care how reputable that breeder is. It's safe to say though, that I do calculate value very carefully, and then make the decision on whether or not what I am paying for is worth it.

    The one time I did buy a BYB puppy, I paid a very low price, and while I admit it was a mistake, her health issue was a rare non-breed specific disease that could not have been predicted by current health testing. I can honestly say that a Mexican "reputable breeder" would not have reimbursed me or the likes or acted any different to the BYB, so not really applicable. I will say that I did not end up spending thousands on her.
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  17. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Do not be concerned, MicheleM. If you knew anything about me, my dog or my family, you would know it was put up to show how tolerant my boy can be. And, like I said in my post AND in the video, playing with my dogs ears are not tolerated. My children AND grandchildren are taught to respect all animals. If you think from viewing that video that a child is hanging off my dogs ears all day, you got it wrong. It was just a cute video showing a well rounded dog that loves small children and simply was putting up with childs play that lasted for seconds.
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  18. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Actually i decided to move my latest post in this thread to the registration and registries thread for a couple reasons.. I understand why you bumped this thread and dont want to crap all over that and i suppose my reply and comments are simply better suited for that thread. That and my post will still show in the quoted post below mine. ;) See ya there.
  19. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Von you and I both know that too many don't care what they get as long as it resembles a Doberman BUT, why does it resemble a Doberman??? Because someone kept records and bred for a specific look and purpose. Doberman did not just fall out of the sky.

    While I agree that to way too many the pedigree and papers mean nothing, but to those of us who strive to breed quality, train, show and trail our dogs it means a lot. It means a lot in finding right dogs to cross with, finding the right home for the right dog, finding the dog that can do the work I want it to do, etc. I call it stacking the deck in my favor.

    I had a lady call me a couple years go asking about a puppy. Said I would out of her budget and I told her I understood and gave her some things to look for - 4 months later I get another call - she bought that "affordable" puppy and it died within two weeks. Vet said it was just too infested in worms and the worming killed it. Now she has one of my puppies but had to over twice as much as needed since she bought one and lost it and then had to buy another. I went to visit them and they live in a big beautiful home and did not want to pay for quality???? Someday I just shake my head.

    Then I get calls all the time for people wanting help - I ask them what their breeder said and guess what they didn't know so they got no help. BUT they expect me to help them for FREE. I do but it does not set right with me that they expect someone else to cleam up after them.

    At a bare minimum AKC registration gives you a better chance at getting a someone what better breeder to work with. I feel it also plays a big role in protecting the dog. If people paid for quality then they are not as likely to justtrow it away when it does not fit their little lifetyle. They usually won't advertise it on Craigs list but bring the dog back to the breeder to clean up and solve their problem from them. And unregisterd dog ahs no value to the people who bought it.
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  20. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Agreed i have one any kid in the world could ride like a horse, she is so mellow drama free and laid back it isnt funny.. I also have one that was raised in the same home with the same love that isnt even allowed in the same room as children even when crated of any age let alone young ones..
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