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Backyard Breeder vs Reputable Breeder

Discussion in 'Doberman Breeders' started by FredC, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Backyard Breeder

    1. Motive for breeding: "fun", "good for kids", "to make money". Does not screen buyers and seldom refuses to sell, even if buyer is unsuitable.

    2. Breeds the family pet to any convenient pet of the same breed just to have purebred pups. Has no understanding or concern with genetics, pedigree bloodlines, or breed improvement.

    3. Though the pets (sire/dam of pups) may be well loved, they were not tested for hip dysplasia or for other genetic problems such as cardiomyopathy and hypothyroidism.

    4. Offers no health guarantee beyond proof of shots, if that. Unqualified to give help if problems develop.

    5. Seller has little knowledge of breed history, the national breed club or of the AKC breed standard. May claim this does not matter for "just pets".

    6. Pups raised in makeshift accommodations, sometimes unsanitary, indicating lack of long-term investment in breeding and lack of true care for the puppies well-being.

    7. Even when selling "just pets", may produce AKC papers or "championship pedigrees" as proof of quality. Yet seller does not increase his own knowledge through participation in national, regional, or local breed clubs. Is not involved in showing their dogs to "prove" quality.

    8. May be unwilling to show a buyer the entire litter or to introduce the dam of the litter. Cannot or will not compare/critique pups or pup’s ancestors.

    9. Prices are at the low end of local range, since must move pups quickly. Advertises in the local newspaper classifieds.

    10. No concern for the future of individual pups or the breed as a whole. Does not use AKC’s limited registration option or ask for spay/neuter contract to guard against the breeding of sub-standard pups. If you cannot keep pup, tells you to take it to a dog pound or to sell it.


    Reputable Breeder

    1. Dedication to producing quality dogs is serious avocation. Has so much invested in dogs that he struggles to break even, not make a profit. Will sell pups only to approved buyers.

    2. Can explain how planned breedings are used to emphasize or minimize specific qualities through linebreeding, outcrossing, or more rarely, inbreeding.

    3. Does not breed dogs younger than age 2. Has breeding stock x-rayed to check for hip dysplasia, echo/doppler run for SAS, holtered within the last year for boxer cardiomyopathy (also known as ARVC) and thyroid screened. Can produce certification to prove claims.

    4. Written contractural commitment to replace a dog with genetic faults or to help owner deal with problem.

    5. Loves the breed and can talk at length about its background, uses, and ideal type.

    6. Has an investment in dog equipment and the puppies environment is sanitary and loving.

    7. Belongs to national, regional, and/or local dog clubs, indicating a love for the sport of purebred dogs. Shows their dogs as an objective test of how his stock measures up.

    8. Shows litter and dam in a sanitary environment. Helps buyer evaluate and choose a pup. Explains criteria for "show prospects" versus "pet picks".

    9. Prices will be at the high end of local range. Price will not reflect all that is invested in the pups. A reputable breeder never profits from the sale of puppies. Does not advertise in the newspaper. Has an established waiting list for the pups.

    10. After purchase, will help you with grooming or training problems. Will take back a pup you cannot keep rather than see it disposed of inappropriately. Sells pets with spay/neuter agreement and on AKC limited registration.
    • Like Like x 11
  2. omel13omel

    omel13omel Notable member

    Very educational thought and idea there.Thanks for sharing it.....
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    I agree with omel 13,very educational.

    I have a comment though and please understand while I don't fully agree with the backyard breeders on a whole,if done for the right reasons and the proper tests etc are done first I see no big problem with it. At some point even the most reputable breeder was a small time backyard operation. No one just starts out king of the hill.

    The health 'guarantee'...............
    A quick experience of a friend of mine.

    They live in Colorado,and when their dogs(Rotties) passed after a long fulfilling life(one a state certified therapy dog for the elderly) they hunted high and low for a new dog.Their search led them to a Very Reputable Rottie breeder out of state. They drove well over 1000 miles one way to get their new pup. She was a doll,and very smart.Came well papered and the health "guarantee". Fast forward a year and a half,she had issues,both front elbos needed surgery. They had tracked her growth very well and she was right where she should have been weight wise throughout her first year. It all happened very quickly,and before you could blink were re-habing their dog and a $ 5,500 vet bill. They called the breeder to ask what may have gone wrong,and what about the health gaurantee? They were told,"send her back and we will replace her" My friend about came unglued. Basicly told the guy it was good for him he lived as far away as he did,or there woulda been some violence based on just that smug attitude alone.They kept her,and she has been fine since her rebuild. They have since had children and their Rottie loves the twins to no end and would protect to her last breath,I have no doubt.

    So the thing or question is......How does one simply "replace" a loved family member who's been a part of your life for over a year? The way the breeder came off she was like a used car,"just send her back and we'll replace her".
    The next question would be,say they had sent her back,what would have become of her? At that point she is of no value to the breeder,do they simply put the dog down? I know for damn sure they wouldn't want her around for future clients to see.
    If you had a dog for a year or two and health issues came up,would you send away your dog you have invested so much time and love into and built a strong relationship with ? Think about what emotions that poor dog would go through,as well as yourself.

    Just because there is a health guarantee doesn't always guarantee you get a perfect dog.

    Anyone who wants to can flame away on me here,but it is what it is.
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. swiftK9s

    swiftK9s Hot Topics Subscriber

    GC.. this is how I look at it...
    I wouldn't look for a health guarantee, that wouldn't be a selling point for me. There is no way I would return a much loved pet.
    One of the most important things this forum has taught me...before I choose a puppy, to do my homework, research the breeders and their dogs, talk with them, see what measures they take to ensure healthy dam/sire and healthy pups, educate myself on what tests should be done, research the lines yourself. If you don't feel good about it, move on.

    There are no guarantees in life. Once I take that puppy home, I feel like his health and wellness is my responsibility, no one elses and if something did come up down the road, I would inform the breeder (for his/her records) and just deal with it, because I feel like it is my responsibility as the owner.
    • Like Like x 5
  5. Marinegeekswife

    Marinegeekswife Hot Topics Subscriber

    I think you misunderstand the meaning of the term backyard breeder. It isn't so much about the size of the operation as the quality of it. If they are doing their research, the proper health tests, working their dogs, etc. then they don't qualify as a BYB, at least not in my book. A BYB is someone who just throws two dogs together with no regards to pedigree, personality, health, etc. and often just for the sake of making money. They usually don't care what happens to the puppies once they are gone. The health guarantee is usually just a sign that they will stand behind their puppies. If your puppy passes away in the first year or two due to a genetic issue wouldn't you be glad for that replacement? That sounds a little harsh but I think you know what I mean.
    • Like Like x 6
  6. Suri&Simon

    Suri&Simon Member

    Suri and Coffee were bred by a BYB :C and yes, they both had health problems. Coffee was a 4 months old pup who didn't get a single vaccine for anything but had the ear cropping, as expected he got sick of parvovirus since he got the virus on the VET, and a week later he got gangrene on the ear, it all ended with a 5 months old pup with almost no ears. By that time Suri's mom was already pregnant and they both lived in the same yard so all the liter got sick as soon as they were born. Suri got this mortal virus and she needed to be checked for bone malformations... good thing it all went good. My friend gave them to me and told me that Suri was the miracle baby since she almost died... SOOOOOOOOOO IM AM TOTALLY AGAINST BYB!!
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    The very point is NO BYB does it for the right reason nor do they do the health testing. As Jess said if they do, then that raises them above the BYB.

    You can see how misunderstanding all this is to JQP.
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Sosthenes

    Sosthenes Distinguished Member Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I think to some folks the idea of spending thousands of dollars for a pet reaches the point of being ridicules. Especially the so called middle class. Some of the best financial gurus would tell them that to spend a few thousand bucks on a dog or cat is very unwise. I'm not going to agree or disagree, but I will say that a breeder who places a premium on a pet so high that the middle class will not purchase will soon find himself out of business. This is true for all businesses, not just the breeding industry. While warranties & guaranties work well for the auto industry they may not work so well for breeders & buyers because we are talking about a living, breathing and loving family member and not a Chevrolet. I do understand that for some a replacement will work, but it could never work for my family. If a pup died or had some terrible disorder that might cost me thousands and we had this animal for a year or longer, there is no replacement possibility. This is a very emotional issue as well as a financial one and both sides have valuable positions. Cato didn't cost thousands(yet), but I can assure you he is un replaceable.
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  9. Marinegeekswife

    Marinegeekswife Hot Topics Subscriber

    You are missing a vital point. It isn't about the money. A good breeder will sell a pup at a reasonable price, not too much not too little. Just enough to offset the expense of health testing the parents, training the parents, and creating and raising the litter. None of that is cheap, that is why the pups from a good breeder are over $1000. You forget that it isn't really a business as it isn't about making money. It is about bettering the breed.
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Rits

    Rits Admin Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Paying more upfront, to insure you have a better chance at a healthier dog because your breeder spends the time and money to health test and pay attention to the dogs they breed, is far better than taking a chance with a dog that may be a bit cheaper. BYB's don't spend much attention to what they are producing; whether it be proving their dogs are worthy of being bred by making sure their stock has the minimum health tests or competing with them, preferably both. Yes, this is one of the more expensive breeds. I do know there are breeds that may be much more suitable if one would prefer not to put that much money down or rescue may be your route as the dogs there have just as good as health as dogs through BYB's and they are usually cheaper too. So many in rescue I'm sure at least one of them would be the perfect match for what a person may be looking for, for their family.

    Like with any dog, you have to decide if you are going to be capable to provide for this dog, to the best of your ability, for it's life. Upfront costs are usually the least of concerns with this breed.
    • Like Like x 4
  11. fehnder

    fehnder Hot Topics Subscriber

    Just wanted to add, having looked at what $1000 is in £ (£622) I don't consider that to be at all much for any dog let alone a Doberman. With the exception of jack Russell's, mixed breeds advertised as that and staffies in the UK you would be hard pressed to find pups cheaper than that (or at least around that price). I most definitely paid more than that for Indi.

    I also agree that in my opinion, once you purchase a pet, it's health and well being become your responsibility as the owner. The breeder cannot be held accountable as such if they have done everything right. It all ties into doing your homework before committing to a dog or breeder.
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    a $1000?
    I haven't looked in a while,but last time I did prices were more like $2200-4K.
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  13. Ataro

    Ataro Notable member

    I think in some cases they can be overpriced, such as in Australia... where about $2500 is the lower end of the norm for a pet quality puppy. And I can assure you this has nothing to do with the the costs of raising a pup/titling the parents. It is, like everything else, directly related to the purchasing power of the general population.
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    In other words,make it so the general population can't afford one.:cool:
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Marinegeekswife

    Marinegeekswife Hot Topics Subscriber

    For a quality pup I haven't seen many below $1200 - 1900 for limited registration.
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Ataro

    Ataro Notable member

    No, in other words make it more expensive just because the general population can afford one. Honestly, if your costs are covered and there has been no unforeseen difficulties during the whelping, I find it very hard to justify charging more than $2000 for a pet quality puppy. Of course, not all kennels can command the same price due to several factors, but this is just as ridiculous as charging $17 for a small packet of cigarettes (due to new taxes, this has now become a reality in Australia... not that I smoke, but I still find this kind of behaviour ridiculously greedy).
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Sosthenes

    Sosthenes Distinguished Member Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Jess, You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that a thousand or two thousand is an off the mark cost, but some breeders charge far more than just an amount to off set the costs of business. With these people it is about the money. I am a free market guy and believe in value. Value is nothing more nor less than what someone is willing to pay for a product.I don't even begrudge these folks, all I'm saying is that the middle class will not make purchase when the cost exceeds their ability or willingness to pay. The middle class is the backbone of our economy and they deserve quality pets like everyone else. Another way of looking at the middle class is to compare them with the non-commissioned officers in the military who are the backbone of the military. Do not these soldiers deserve the best our tax payers can provide? When I purchased Cato it wasn't about money it was about logistics. Mason Ohio is closer than eastern Ohio and other breeders in the Cincinnati area were damn snobbish, so it was more about who could facilitate our needs and at the same time give us good value. I agree, it isn't about the money, but money does play into the transaction along with other things.
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  18. Dragonborn

    Dragonborn Hot Topics Subscriber

    Wonderful post Vondoom... I wish i would of found this site before i purchased my bella. Unfortunately i suspect her breeder was a BYB... its a blow to my pride but im willing to accept it. I do know now the second time around how to find a reputable breeder and will never make the mistake of purchasing a pup from a BYB. I traced my bellas ancestors two generations and they have no titles or anything to their names except for a couple DNA tests. :(
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Sosthenes

    Sosthenes Distinguished Member Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I agree with you, but I have to ask this question....Does paying more for a car give you a better car? I still say this thing must be based on value and vbalue is what a person is willing to pay. That may be 1000 or 10,000. Value is value.
  20. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Absolutely and I am a Cadillac girl all the way. They are just so much more car so much more comfortable and lots of bells and whistles - When workng I always drove an Cadillac Eldorado - surround sound moon roof leather interior YUM. I still miss them. I think I had a love affair with everyone I drove. Same with my Dobermans. That's why we have pedigree dogs - We don't want just any old mutt. It goes against the very prinicple of what a purebred dog is all about - it is for the discriminateing.

    Dobermans are the Cadillac of dogs so they are not cheap and they are not for the chinzy.
    • Like Like x 6

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