If I was a breeder...looking for working lines

[BGpa]

Before, the only meaning of AI was artificial insemination but sadly they had to introduce "artificial intelligence" into everyday conversation in the last few years.

I'm waiting for someone to use AI to fuse all the variois doberman pedigree databases into one, easily used by the lay public.

Then incentivize accurate reporting on COD, etc.

That could actually help the public help the breed by informed customer choice.

And reward the breeders doing the best work on the magic that goes beyond "wire diagrams" and dna markers.

 

[Ravenbird]

Before, the only meaning of AI was artificial insemination but sadly they had to introduce "artificial intelligence" into everyday conversation in the last few years.

When AI started being seen in conversations everywhere, it took me a while to adjust my brain from instantly reading "artificial insemination". Like, a LONG while. My brain just instantly translated it to making foals or puppies.

 

[Ravenbird]

Then incentivize accurate reporting on COD, etc.

That could actually help the public help the breed by informed customer choice.

And reward the breeders doing the best work on the magic that goes beyond "wire diagrams" and dna markers.

From what I observe, very few breeders really care. They are breeding either for purpose and prove it through working abilities or breeding for looks and prove it through show, or breed to make money by breeding something "special" - color, size, cuteness, popularity, doodles, etc. etc.
So I don't know how you'd incentivize reporting COD if it helped steer customers away from their lines? It's mostly those breeders that are not reporting because it's bad for their business.
And what kind of reward (and by what means?) would be given to breeders doing the best work of over & beyond the call? They already have breeder of the year or some such for most breeds and their various oversight clubs, but almost always it's for performance and winning with offspring, not health.

Whether breeding for a working dog or a show dog or a companion dog, Doberman breeders have to start looking at longevity in the pedigree and they won't until the buyers demand it.

Since the internet made pedigree information so easy for me to research, just like you, I found as many different sources to look at and thought IF ONLY there was more information on these dogs! If it was required! If breeders would just take the time to put in COD, or hell, just the year of death in many cases... But after thinking of this for a bit, so many really don't care, by the looks of Dobequest pedigree - many breeding dogs with incomplete health reports listed!) and some puppy mills actually make efforts to hide information.Many buyers don't have any idea that they even need to be asking questions, much less insisting on information.

So anyway, good ideas, but I have no clue how to get more people involved.

 

[Ravenbird]

True. Now I have to find a bitch I really like and convince a breeder to do an AI breeding if I foot the bill.

It may very well be about the only way to get a puppy from these old lines! Do let us know if you bring this into reality!

I don't have time to work on it right now, but it would be fun to follow the pedigrees of his sons to see if any progeny are around and at stud. He produced Swift Run dogs and Swift Run is where Masaya got started with her kennel line. Not sure if Swift Run still produces but Masaya does.

 

[BGpa]

From what I observe, very few breeders really care. They are breeding either for purpose and prove it through working abilities or breeding for looks and prove it through show, or breed to make money by breeding something "special" - color, size, cuteness, popularity, doodles, etc. etc.
So I don't know how you'd incentivize reporting COD if it helped steer customers away from their lines? It's mostly those breeders that are not reporting because it's bad for their business.
And what kind of reward (and by what means?) would be given to breeders doing the best work of over & beyond the call? They already have breeder of the year or some such for most breeds and their various oversight clubs, but almost always it's for performance and winning with offspring, not health.

Whether breeding for a working dog or a show dog or a companion dog, Doberman breeders have to start looking at longevity in the pedigree and they won't until the buyers demand it.

Since the internet made pedigree information so easy for me to research, just like you, I found as many different sources to look at and thought IF ONLY there was more information on these dogs! If it was required! If breeders would just take the time to put in COD, or hell, just the year of death in many cases... But after thinking of this for a bit, so many really don't care, by the looks of Dobequest pedigree - many breeding dogs with incomplete health reports listed!) and some puppy mills actually make efforts to hide information.Many buyers don't have any idea that they even need to be asking questions, much less insisting on information.

So anyway, good ideas, but I have no clue how to get more people involved.

Agreed. I'm just kicking this idea around, and keep going back to free market consumer choice.

"The market will always fill an unmet need, and where one does not exist, a product/service provider should create the need, and fill it".

So for example, what is the unmet need, and how to create it?

I keep thinking consumer education on how to buy, and best tools to make it easy.

Its clear the dichotomy between show and working lines exists in many once "total functional dog" breeds, and your concerns are echoed in other forums I've read, and periodically over the years in the doberman breed...and some of same in Europe.

But I may be misreading what buyers want.
And to your point: things are the way they are for a reason...the evolution of needs/wants that are different from that which you prefer.

 

[Ravenbird]

But I may be misreading what buyers want.
And to your point: things are the way they are for a reason...the evolution of needs/wants that are different from that which you prefer.

My assumptions have been way off, until I looked at the big-big picture, which took me a long time. Years.

I thought most everybody would be in favor of breeding first for healthy dogs and 2nd for whatever they personally wanted. But after years of observation, most people just want what they want, and whatever comes with it is just a little baggage that they can deal with, cross that bridge if it's in their path so to speak. Since I know so very few personally but so very many in observation I could be wrong about some, but actions speak louder than words. I observe that some will breed what their market wants, or that in their opinion will boost their chances of success in whatever field they are in. I get it. That's business. Where I failed in my assumptions is that they would choose this type of breeding (success and sales) over searching for a breeding match that would produce a healthier litter with less chances (via pedigree lack of disease/longevity) but may not have as much concentration of show/work traits, so a crapshoot on your litter becoming instant stars. And again, I get it, I can't blame them. They are invested. But what I also didn't get is that very few of us on the buyers end know much of anything and just buy whatever is out there.

So there is no buyer demand except "I want to show, so I want a dog bred from CH's." or "I want an IGP/sport dog, so I want to buy from a sport dog breeder with those kinds of titles". So that's where they go and what they buy. Beginners with big dreams or pros that have been around the block. Then there are two more types of breeders, most just say BYB, but I separate them into Mills and BYB. Mills produce litter after litter after litter and make money hand over fist. They produce and sell more puppies than anyone, and almost all of them are to John Q Public who has no idea about health problems in the breed. They have 5 - 20 bitches and half a dozen breeding dogs. They live and whelp in kennels. Then what I call BYB are pet owners who breed a litter or two a year at the most, usually don't know much, don't have a clue about testing but they have a nice dog and their neighbor has a nice dog so they have a litter and get on Good Dog website and get $500 per puppy and they are tickled to death at how easy that was. On this forum we bunch the mills with the BYB word, but honestly they are two different deals and Mills are the most dangerous of all to the Dobermans health. So if the buyer "demand" is looked at, it might amount to 10% show, 5% working, 5% active companion sports, and the rest are just looking for a companion Doberman. I'm GUESSING at these numbers, literally making them up, but I think most dogs go to pet homes. Why would they even imagine they need to ask the breeder as many questions as the breeder asks them? I simply think puppy buyers are not of the mindset to read, study and work hard to find the perfect puppy.

I'm with you on all the things I wish would happen, that we could review pedigrees, that breeders would post all the info on their breeding dogs, and stay up to date with their progeny, be available and open to talk to about things that have not gone to their liking in their own dogs. Honesty & transparency. LOL, I'm asking too much, I know. I use to think that we buyers could change the way breeders looked at their own programs, but now I think those of us with a high expectation of breeders will be sorting through them for quite some time. Basically they are just like us: They want what they want and at this point they don't have to change their ways to suit buyer demands.