Matt Vandart
Hot Topics Subscriber
Maybe the doberman should have it's own temperament test sport, why not, it deserves it 
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- Thread starter Dobs4ever
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Ataro
Notable member
There are tests such as the ZTP and the Körung (which requires a SchH 1 title) which were designed to test for correct temperament and conformation in Dobermanns used for breeding. I can't say that any dog breed was designed to be a sport dog, but some sports are more appropriate/relevant for certain breeds than others.
Matt Vandart
Hot Topics Subscriber
Indeed but they are a bit of a joke though are they not?
There are vids of Dobes passing the Korung that are very poor shows indeed.
Not sure about the ZTP
There are vids of Dobes passing the Korung that are very poor shows indeed.
Not sure about the ZTP
Matt Vandart
Hot Topics Subscriber
Even assuming that they are suitable tests, a one time only test is not the best really IMO.
A series of titles and more importantly experiences will give better impression of the dogs character.
A series of titles and more importantly experiences will give better impression of the dogs character.
Ataro
Notable member
The ZTP can be trained for, but technically the part where the helper comes in with a frontal attack should not be a joke. And I would not say the Körung is a joke. It is designed to be taken twice (the first test is valid for two years, the second test is valid for life)... so together with the normal ZTP, after the dog has been angekört for life, it will have been tested three times.
The problem is that there are helpers who help the dog instead of challenging them and judges who will pass these dogs... it's called corruption. And it's quite common practice, I've found, for show breeders to send a dog off to Serbia or wherever and have them trained and trialed for Schutzhund titles that they probably don't deserve. You can always tell those dogs apart from the ones with real working ability by checking the records to see if they ever trial at international working championships like the Meisterschaft
.
The problem is that there are helpers who help the dog instead of challenging them and judges who will pass these dogs... it's called corruption. And it's quite common practice, I've found, for show breeders to send a dog off to Serbia or wherever and have them trained and trialed for Schutzhund titles that they probably don't deserve. You can always tell those dogs apart from the ones with real working ability by checking the records to see if they ever trial at international working championships like the Meisterschaft
.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
First the breed clubs hold the standard and AKC accepts them as the breed club standard. Why do you assume that a breeder would not understand or make appropriate decisions based on years of breeding their lines with generations to back them up???
To automatically label breeders as not using their best to move forward tells me someone might know all the wrong breeders.
Here is how I see it good breeders who work hard to trail test and preserve a breed get slammed on a regular basis by people who decide it better to go buy from a person who does little to no research, precious little testing and never tested their dog beyond the dog in heat copulation. You will never convince me that is a better plan. It goes against everything that the purebred dog world is about.
What people seem to fail to understand back when purebred dogs first started forming, breeders did not know about recessive genes that might crop up in some future generations so they bred back to what they liked and was the closest to what they were trying to establish. They did not have DNA and all the complications of unknows it brought with it. Now the hunt is on to unravel the DNA mystery so we can breed perfect dogs. But until that happens there is no clear one path solves all as some seem to think..
As far as the standard goes Herr Dobermann, while given the credit of starting the breed, died before it was finished. Others then picked up were he left off to bring the breed to the forefront and establish it, establish a breed club and standard to protect what was their vision. Had we left the Doberman as Herr Doberman did and done nothing to improve on his beginnings the breed would have died out.
To sit back and observe wiht a very limited tunnel scope is not going to do any better thatn what we have done with what we have been given and what we are still anxiously waiting for the unsolved mysteries that will answer all questions. We don't live in a polyanna world, It's more like Pandora's box.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Registrations from Australia from 1986 through 2011:
3466 - 2539 --3113 -2725 - 2920- 2472 - 2040 - 2116 - 2185 - 1876 - 1800 - 1398 - 1200 - 1320- 1173 - 1248 - 1082 - 957 -715 - 619 - 686 - 558- 689 - 644 - 757
According to my breeder friend in Austrailia 12 breeders she knows of dropped out when the Tails docking ban went into affect and she expects reg to be lower for 2012. I don't think those numbers which are from the reg show a continued interest in our breed. TPeople don't want dogs that look like coon hounds it does not draw the interest. as the maginificance c/d look of Eagles. There is not other look tht suits the doberman.
According to her the requirements have not been successfuly in weeding out any flakey breeders. Anyone can study and pass a test.
Matt I am not trying to be rude but I am going to ask how if you know so much about temperament you bought two dogs you say are far from the temperament they should have? Did the breeder you bought from do any showing or trialing her own dogs??? I just ask for education purposes to try to help other new people who are looking for things to look for in a good breeder.
I have seen many tmeperament ruined by new people who did not know what they were doing too.
You can Pm me if you prefer.
Ataro
Notable member
The numbers are right there - interest went down and is going up again - you can't expect a jump of 1500 new registrations per year overnight, that's just not how it works. You will find the same pattern (rise and fall of interest) in almost any breed except maybe German Shepherds and Labradors. You might also think about the fact that Dobermanns are prohibitively expensive to buy in Australia (around $2500 for a pet quality puppy), and so this number does not include the dogs that have been bred/bought without papers.
And I'm tired of hearing your opinions on what look best suits the Dobermann, this is not a thread about C&D. C&D has nothing to do with registration, so let's stick to the topic and not turn this into another shitty bash fest.
It is starting to seem like you don't want people to even have to try to get into breeding. Yeah, sure anyone can study and pass a test (you can say that about education in general) - but someone who is not interested enough in making the effort is not going to study to pass the test. It's just the same as the owners who can't be bothered to fill out a questionnaire if they are interested in a puppy from a breeder. It doesn't stop idiots from owning a Dobermann, but it does help. With your logic you might as well say, hey let's stop all health testing such as echo/holters, thyroid etc., because the dog could just drop dead in 6 months anyway! Why bother making an effort? We can just breed and register the litter anyway!
The point is: there is no perfect solution or answer, but making it easier for people is not helping anything at all.
And I'm tired of hearing your opinions on what look best suits the Dobermann, this is not a thread about C&D. C&D has nothing to do with registration, so let's stick to the topic and not turn this into another shitty bash fest.
It is starting to seem like you don't want people to even have to try to get into breeding. Yeah, sure anyone can study and pass a test (you can say that about education in general) - but someone who is not interested enough in making the effort is not going to study to pass the test. It's just the same as the owners who can't be bothered to fill out a questionnaire if they are interested in a puppy from a breeder. It doesn't stop idiots from owning a Dobermann, but it does help. With your logic you might as well say, hey let's stop all health testing such as echo/holters, thyroid etc., because the dog could just drop dead in 6 months anyway! Why bother making an effort? We can just breed and register the litter anyway!
The point is: there is no perfect solution or answer, but making it easier for people is not helping anything at all.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Ataro somedays I have problems with some of your negativity also but you are free to your opinions. I agree the thread is suppose to be about registration and it seems you always turn it into breeder bashing or temperament bashing. I did not post the number until I had them correct from the registry. When the tail docking ban went into effect the breeders in Australia that I had the opportuntity to hear from expressed their opinon that it would hurt the breed even further. That would be directly related to c/d whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
Your comment was that People are not loosing interest in the breed there and if you look at the numbers the drop is right at 50% 1986 to 1996 3466 down to 1800 1996 to 2006 1800 down to 686 a slight increase up to 747 does not yet show a come back.
I guess I just missed the ebb and flow and upward spiral. If that is interest in the breed then as I have been saying the gene pool is in trouble. That would mean we need more good breeders.
I 100% support good breeding practices and would encourage anyone who cares to do it right to hang in there or for new people to come into the breed. I myself have started several people on showing, trialing and breeding because we need good breeders. It seems to me you don't think anyone is good at breeding. As I told you before I think you have become jaded since you seem to have the luck of finding the wrong examples all the time. I do find it hard as long as I have been in Dobes to imagine anyone who only finds the bad and continually puts everything about the purebred dog world down.
I have stated it does have it problems as does any industry. but the vast majority are good and the dogs are good. I have spoken to AKC judges who judge both here and in Europe and they have not seen the things you speak of in the show dogs in Germany. I have had the opportunity to speak directly with Judges from Germany and they did not see the poor temperaments you speak of as the norm. I have not spoken on it much because I have not been there myself to see but I do trust their observations.
Ataro
Notable member
I don't bash breeders in general, I just refuse to excuse people for their lack of effort in their practices. You, on the other hand, seem to try to make excuses and cover up the tracks of every bad breeder out there that gets called out, and then turn around and say that you're for the betterment of the breed. See how confusing that is, when you're trying to advise people on what red flags to look out for?
The tail docking ban came into effect in 2003, and as you clearly can see the numbers of registrations had been falling long before that. The ear cropping ban came in long before 1986 as well, so you can't use that argument to account for falling numbers. However, the number of registrations haven't been falling recently - they are steady and in fact showed an slight increase in the last year. It's plain for all to see, I don't understand why you keep trying to argue about what the numbers are showing (which is pretty obvious).
So, you're going to start insinuating that I am lying about the temperaments I have witnessed in Germany? What would be my reasons for saying bad things about Dobermanns in Germany if they weren't true? Why would I choose Germany, as opposed to any other country including my "favourite" Mexico? Do you really think people coming from here are going to tell you "yeah, we have temperament problems with our show dogs here". Nobody wants their dogs to look bad. It's just the same attitude as the people here who say that all American Dobes are bad and aren't real Dobermanns. I suggest you ask the German judges about those dogs they disqualified at shows because of poor temperament. Or do you really think they just had huge white patches on their chest or something?
You seem to have a lot of opinions on what is going on in other countries, which is interesting, as you say yourself that you've never been there.
GennyB
Hot Topics Subscriber
You are probably right. But why would she? Just do a quick search and you can find thousands of breeders that don't have a clue what they are doing. IMO the love of the breed is not enough to call yourself a breeder. The gene pool is not big enough for that many mistakes. It takes years of studying pedigrees and the standard as well as putting into practice what you have studied before you earn the title of reputable breeder. D4E has done that. I have one of her dogs and and his temperament is so stable I couldn't ruin it if I tried. And trust me, I inadvertently did try. In mt attempt to learn how to work with this dog, more than one person tried to take us down the wrong road. But we are on the right path now and he is excelling everyday because I found someone that could teach me. And you guessed it, that person was D4E.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
I will apologize to everyone for my Sh--- attitude I really need to clean it up and stop worrying about registraion, good/bad breeders and poor advise on training issues, temperament etc.. I did after all get all my knowledge out of a cracker jack box as some of you know.
I admit I failed to realize that new poeple to the breed who have never bred, trained or shown a dog know far more than breeders who have tried to dedicate their lives to the Doberman.
I did not realize that I could not understand a graph that goes from 3400 down to 700 shows an clear indication that the interest in the breed has remained strong.
I need to find something better than cracker jacks to educate myself I guess. Maybe I should try the funny papers next.
I admit I failed to realize that new poeple to the breed who have never bred, trained or shown a dog know far more than breeders who have tried to dedicate their lives to the Doberman.
I did not realize that I could not understand a graph that goes from 3400 down to 700 shows an clear indication that the interest in the breed has remained strong.
I need to find something better than cracker jacks to educate myself I guess. Maybe I should try the funny papers next.
Ataro
Notable member
Do you believe that these thousands of breeders all have a passion for the breed? My point is that anyone with a passion for the breed will be determined enough to do something as simple as study for an exam. If they learn something in the mean time about how to better care for their puppies and brood bitch, or what to look for when screening potential buyers, don't you think this is worth the small effort?
As you said, not everyone starts out under a great mentor breeder etc. this small step will give them at least some knowledge to possibly save their bitch's life if she needs an emergency C-section and they, being inexperienced, can't recognize the signs.
GennyB
Hot Topics Subscriber
Do you believe that these thousands of breeders all have a passion for the breed?
Absolutely not! A large group of them say their passion is the breed, but the reality is their true passion is money. You probably can make money if you don't do health testing and showing or working your dogs.
My point is that anyone with a passion for the breed will be determined enough to do something as simple as study for an exam.
Not necessarily, have you looked at websites ? There are all too many where their claimed champion is not even stacked. Why? Because they don't know how. That is not passion.
Don't you dare! Do you really think there is something wrong with your attitude? Just look at your dogs...are you kidding me? Let's see there is Drake and River, Zeke, Redman and we can't forget Bella or Raci, the list goes on and on. Do you drive each of us as owners of those dogs crazy at one point or another? Absolutely! But it is your attitude that has made me want to continue. Where would Drake and I be without your attitude? Would he be am Intl Ch? That would be a big NO! Would we be a member of your club and working with Waine? Again, a big NO! So if you got your info from cracker jacks.............I'm off to stock up on some!
MicheleM
Active Member
Your education with this breed isn't out of a book but through blood sweat and tears and hands on learning.
You have passion for this breed and years of experience and I always enjoy what you have to say. Love, experience and passion is what I see in your posts, not a sh attitude.
These are the last 7 numbers.I don't see an increase.I see a teeter-totter effect going on.I wonder how many weren't registered these years vs unreg'ed in the years past.Are the #s of the breed going away? Or are the numbers just being shifted around?I guess the(unanswerable) question better stated would be I wonder how many Dobe's were bread total per year,reg and non reg.
F
FredC
Again no real way of knowing for positive but ill one up ya here and say i bet the higher numbers also represent periods when the doberman lived longer and was considered a healthier breed.
kaloric
Well-Known Member
By your statement, am I to assume that all your breeding stock earned at least a full, basic IPO/SchH level 1 title and also passed an objective conformation/breeding suitability test as was required to protect the working foundations of the breed, prior to you first breeding them? Remember, these were considered basic tests for the suitability of breeding stock, judged by objective eyes. I'm thinking something must've gotten conveniently dropped when AKC started regulating the studbook, because self-certification and money paid to the AKC are the only requirements for breeding stock to be entered.
So you tell me, what are the odds that someone whose stock is not titled or objectively judged to be fit is going to self-certify that the animals are not only of proper conformation and also have working temperament and fundamental ability? I think people usually see what they want to see, and they believe what they want to believe, especially when money and dreams are at stake.
The long and short of it is, when I see Dobermans for sale from parents with trivial titles (such as the most basic companion dog or traffic-sure dog tests that mean they're suitable for being taken out in public) or no titles at all, they're all the same to me, pet-grade all the way. People breeding for pet-grade Dobermans are just breeding Dobermans, there is no objective way to claim it's furthering the breed when even the basic work to quantify it hasn't been done.
Since most dogs are pets, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Let's just not have any pretenses here, bettering the breed involves much, much more diligence and effort than keeping it going and avoiding the most identifiable health problems.
The world has known about and accepted the theory of recessive genes and Mendelian inheritance for about a century now. Linebreeding is a necessary bottleneck at times in animal husbandry. We know the evils that can come along with it rather well at this point, and that's still not stopping people from linebreeding, even when they don't know what the actual purpose of it really is; linebreeding an animal with some distinguishing achievements is just inbreeding, because "being distinguished" is not a meaningful trait that can be selected for. It can be a start, but until the progeny earns titles for itself, nothing has been achieved. Without quantifying progeny success, it's impossible to even say that the fact that a sire or dam had some titles means anything until that is done, because many an animal with great achievements throws nothing but mediocre offspring. Success as breeding stock is one more thing that needs to be quantitatively analyzed, it's why Register of Merit is one of the only statements on a pedigree that means something, but for some reason, it doesn't seem to be a common title in canines.
It's not mysterious, it's not magic, it's a combination of lots of effort across many animals to demonstrate their fitness as representatives of the breed, their fitness as breeding stock, and math.
What is magic is the thinking involved with the notion that breeding animals whose pedigrees may have some ancestors with achievements a few generations back is appropriate justification for their status as breeding stock. More often than not, that's what dog breeders are working with. Again, that's too much emphasis on papers and achievements of ancestors, too little emphasis on the worthiness of the individual itself.
