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What is Registration and What Registery is best?

Discussion in 'Doberman Talk and Discussions' started by Dobs4ever, Dec 16, 2012.

  1. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Around the world of the purebred dog that is much talk and discussion on registration. It is part of the foundation that makes our Doberman possible.

    While AKC registration and pedigree does not guarantee the quality of the dog, certainly a lack of one indicates negligence on the part of the breeder as they did not care enough to even try to get quality to start with.

    Starting here in American we have AKC - American Kennel Club that is the only official registry that means anything in America -

    1. It is the oldest registry dating back to 1884. It was established as a way for breeders to verify and track the dogs they bred and to assure their bloodlines and show off their breeding stock. Breeders had kept meticulous records up to this point of what they bred but communication was not what it is today so many of those records died with the breeder.

    2. Without a registry it would be impossible to know parentage, or linage and track and follow what it produces. AKC developed, maintains and set the gold standard for purebred dogs in America.

    3. AKC sets Show schedules, history, breed, and holds all breed standards.

    4. AKC set the rules and guidelines for a breed to become eligible for registration with AKC

    5. AKC has member clubs across the states to promote and hold dog shows and events under the AKC umbrella.

    The purebred dog fancy is all about pride of accomplishment and AKC registraton - Breeding always to better the breed that is our passion.

    FCI - established in 1911 maintains Show schedules, history, breed in Europe and had 86 members countries who reg dogs under the FCI guidelines.

    CKC - Canadian Kennel Club - is the approved club in Canada for registering and showing dog.

    Kennel Club of G B - is the approved club in England

    Australian Kennel Club - approved in Australia

    These clubs share a common bond and have a reciprical reg agreement. In other words a dog that is AKC reg automatically qualifies to be reg in any of the above registries and vice versa.
    This is crucial when considering importing.

    What I call sub registries:

    UKC - United kennel Club - again a long standing club that was primarily designed for the sporting dogs to hold field trials. They do have their own registry and if you dogs line is registred with them - the like AKC puppies can be UKC registered. It does not mean that they will qualify for AKC registration however. But UKC has a strong reputation for setting standards and guidelines. AKC dogs can qualify for UKC registration but UKC reg dogs do not qualify for reg in AKC.

    UDC - United Doberman Club - founded in 1990 when AKC and the DPCA did away with the working dog sports - some DPCA breeders broke away and formed the UDC. They require any dog that participates in their venues to be either AKC, FCI or one of the above approved reg.

    IABCA - International All Breed Kennel Club - is not actually a club as it does not have member clubs. It was started here over 25 years ago and until just a couple years ago held shows under the guidance and rules of Union Cynologie International which conducts shows with Euro style of judging. This is a German Based organization with ties to dog organizations around the world. A dog must be reg through one of the approved registries to qualify to show in this venue.

    In the past few years there are some very unscrupulous clubs that have popped up as a way for people who made a big mistake and got an unregistered dog to reg their dog. Their biggest failing is they do not require valid registration from any of the above clubs to become reg in their registry. Send money and a picture and if your dog somewhat resembles the breed you are trying to reg - it is reg. It is a meaningless registration because they are not recognized by any of the official registries.

    Reputable breeders who breed to improve the breed would never have one of their dogs reg with one of these registries. If you care about a breed, want to breed the best, and work to improve the breed then you certainly want to start with a registry that is approved and recognized around the world because of its long standing history and integrity.

    How could anyone be reputable if they breed dogs that meet no standard, are not recognized by the parent club such as DPCA and are usually of very poor quality and conformation? If anything goes then why not get a mutt??? If quality does not matter to anyone why even try to claim a dog is a certain breed when it lacks approved registration?

    All dogs carrying these registries are from BYB.

    Some of those fly by night cubs are CKC - very clever scam artist to come up with a name that mimics the CKC - Canadian Kennel Club which is a reputable club.

    NKC - National Kennel Club
    APR - American Pet Registry
    APRI- American Pet Registry Inc
    WWKC- World Wide Kennel Club
    Dog Registry of America

    I am sure there are others but I hope you get the idea. If you want to claim a slim hope of having quality then I am sure you would want to start with the Registration of the dog. Any breeder breeding less than the best is surely in it for the money and I can't tell you how often I have had someone call me and the first thing they want to know is are the dogs AKC reg. This tell me some one got scammed along the way by buying a dog from and unscrupulous registry and then finding out they could not do anything with it.
    • Like Like x 8
  2. Ataro

    Ataro Notable member

    I just wanted to point out that the FCI is not itself an independent registry, it is an organization which governs member countries around the globe e.g. the Mexican Kennel Club (FCM), the Australian Kennel Club (ANKC), the German Kennel Club (VDH), the Russian Kennel Club (RKF), the Philippine Canine Club (PCC) etc. All of these clubs use the FCI's seal on their pedigrees, along with the seal and logo etc. of the national club.

    The main clubs to be aware of that are not FCI members, but are recognized by the FCI and vice versa are: the AKC (American Kennel Club), the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) & the Kennel Club of the UK.
    • Like Like x 7
  3. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Thanks for posting this. It is good info and I still believe education, although slow, is still a big part of the answer to the problem. I hope everyone agrees that government regulation will just force more byb's underground and make the problem worse. Breeders, trainers and owners should be involved in the education as a "self regulation" to protect the dogs.
    I have rescued more dogs than I can count and always thought I was doing a good thing. After falling in love with the doberman, I struggled, still do, with the idea of purchasing a well bred dog from a breeder. It feels so strange to me, especially when you take a look at rescues that are full of dogs looking for a good home. But the reality is I was not helping a thing. Every time I took a dog home from a rescue, I left dozens behind. So would it not be a much better idea to look at the real problem and not be so quick to "enable" the bad breeder by taking these dogs? I know it sounds cruel and you will just have to trust me when I say I don't have a cruel bone in my body. I am just looking for an answer that will work. I think creating a demand for a well bred dog and getting involved in dog clubs will help. And would it not be beneficial to our children to become involved in something besides video games? I have thousands of "a boy and his dog" stories and now wish I would have gotten my boys more involved in dog sports.
    • Like Like x 6
  4. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Unless I can't understand what I wrote I think that is what I said. 86 countries are members and while they have their own registry they are approved through FCI - then I listed some - I should have done better at connecting the dots.

    Here is another thread that I think is good for new people to read. It is apparently so easy for people to get mislead.

    It is titled - When you dedicde to breed or buy outside the box

    I really find it interesting that people want to shout about how terrible breeders are and then go out and support some BYB who does not even have valid registration for their dogs. GAG!!!
    • Like Like x 3
  5. Ataro

    Ataro Notable member

    What you wrote could have been misinterpreted, so I posted just to clarify. There are some fake pedigrees going around with BYBs claiming that they are "FCI issued pedigrees", but there is no such thing as an "FCI pedigree", they have to be issued by the national kennel club.
    • Like Like x 3
  6. JanS

    JanS DCF Owner Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Excellent info Suzan! Boris was AKC registered, but for some reason she tossed in the APRI papers too. I'm not sure what her intention was with that unless she was trying to make it look better saying they're "double registered".

    Another thing that makes me insane is when I see so many advertised in the paper that say (for example) "$500 with AKC papers or $250 without". Why on earth would any reputable breeder breed a littler of AKC pups, then give them incentive not to register them? :confused: I can perhaps see the breeding factor but then it would be as simple as specifying in a contract that they are not to be bred, or to have a spay neuter clause unless they're breeding quality.
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  7. MicheleM

    MicheleM Active Member

    All puppies should have AKC registration in the USA if a reg AKC breeder is selling them. If you don't want that puppy bred or studded out there should be a contract to spay and Neuter or a co-owner contract.
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Thanks Jan there are days I just want to sit down and cry - I also want to cry when people call looking for a puppy but don't care if it is reg or not. WHAT???? I swear I think we need guidelines for pet owners. Surely they are not that uneducated to know what and why we have the Doberman Pinscher at all. PUREBRED dog - AKC registered - that is a very minimum of what the entire dog fancy is about. If you don't support it please save us and get a very nice mutt from the pound if reg id not imporatant.

    It is because of of the guidelines of the registry that determines when a breed has reached certain guidelines to qualify for official registration. It gives you a history to research on the pedigree of the dog which can give you health info, working ability, show abilty etc. It is what the purebred dog fancy is all about - Creating and maintaining a standard of excellence. At the very very least it should start with AKC registration or any other approved (primarily FCI, CKC being (Canadian Kennel Club) which should never be mistaken by the Continental Kennel Club that has no standards at all and no credibility. No decent breeder would breed dogs that were not AKC registered.
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  9. MicheleM

    MicheleM Active Member

    I didn't even know there was a CKC other than the Canadian Kennel Club until a few days ago. I find it hard to believe this other CKC club in the USA would register z factored Dobermans. If this is indeed what is happening it should be stopped.
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  10. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Michele - unfortunately even AKC reg Z factors but they have assigned all dogs from that original albino breed a Z # in their reg so that good breeders will not accidently bred to one. There are NO Z factored AKC Ch. Usually after one or two shows they get the msg loud and clear they are not welcome even if they had a nice dog.

    These reg popped up because people unwittingly bought dogs that did not qualify for AKC reg then woke up and realized they want a reg dog - they did not understand even the very basic concept of What showing, training, working and registering was about until too late and low and behold there were people who found a way to exploit their ignorance and open up and paper reg so they could claim they had reg dogs. FAKE ID"S - falseifying papers and pedigrees. WORTHLESS>

    We must protect the very foundation that the purebred dog was was founded upon and that is breed standards and legitimate reg to protect these dog breeds.

    The worst AKC reg breeder (with the exclusion of the albino/z factored) are head and shoulders above any dogs from these other reg that do not require AKC or FCI reg . They are black market dogs and breeders who want to skirt the issue of quality and standard. They want to write their own standard. Then I say let them create their own breeds and get out of the real dog fancy, certainly get out of Dobermans.
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Panama

    Panama Hot Topics Subscriber

    The AKC registers Z factored Dobes!
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    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. MicheleM

    MicheleM Active Member

    Yes they do, and the Canadian Kennel club does too. The DPCC in Canada sends out a email every year listing z factored dogs. Had a blonde moment!
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Yes that is what has caused all the problems. DPCA tried to get AKC to not only ban them from the conformation ring but to not reg them at all. That would have eliminated a lot of our problems had AKC taken that stand. It would evenhelp if AKC would only reg them with limited registration but that is not the case. It is like dumb and dumber!!! But they did set up a special Z registration to help good breeders protect the general population from the infusion of this very detrimental gene.

    Michele then how do you safely track this??? Do you have to know about the list and then find it and check it?? What happens if a black or red dog 3 generations down is being bred??? It is easy with the Z registraton to verify very quickly without a lot of work that the dog decends from Albinos. What says Canadian dogs are Z free with this method. Just wondering.
    • Like Like x 2
  14. MicheleM

    MicheleM Active Member

    image.jpg this page shows a couple of links that try to keep track of z factored Dobermans in Canada
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    How utterly scarey - I knew some had been exported but I think it is very very few - we can only pray and if so the Wz could still be tracked back to the AKC registry which is the papers they would be sent with.
    • Like Like x 2
  16. fehnder

    fehnder Hot Topics Subscriber

    What irritates.me the.most, from a buyer's point.of view.in the UK is that you get a lot.of.adverts for kc registered dogs having a litter that are not registered. Meaning the dogs are being bred against the breeders wishes and against a contract.

    I think in the UK that breeders.(especially for dobes which are just not popular as pets here) are difficult to come by without serious research. By chance, indi's breeder was closest to me, and that was a two hour journey.

    Sent from my LT15i using Tapatalk 2
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  17. JanS

    JanS DCF Owner Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Seeing the APRI brought up made me remember that it even came with Boris' stuff. I remember them not asking for much and this is all they ask for to become a registered breeder. :confused:

    The page is pretty broken up, but you can still see how little they go on.
    Online Breeder Registration
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    I agree Jan it does seem odd that someone who has AKC reg dogs would even bother with the APRI. They don't really have much insshows or benefits to a breeder that I am aware of.

    fehner are you saying that all dogs come with full reg and only a contract between the breeder and client to not breed the dogs? Does the UK not have a limited reg program in place like we have???
    • Like Like x 1
  19. fehnder

    fehnder Hot Topics Subscriber

    Im not entirely sure about limited registrations. I think you're right, there must be limited reg in the UK, im sure on indi's reg it says her progeny cannot be reg. But also her contract states she cannot be bred from.

    It irritates me that people breed from and sell pups from reg dogs, advertise that the parents are reg but puppies are not because that clearly means the dogs shouldn't have been bred from in the first place.

    Sent from my LT15i using Tapatalk 2
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  20. Ataro

    Ataro Notable member

    In many countries there is no limited registration. For example, in Germany the only thing that would warrant a limited registration is a fault present on the puppy at the age of 7 weeks, e.g. a white patch on its chest.
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