What is Registration and What Registery is best?

[FredC]

Fact of the matter is, the KC system has been around a long time in a virtually unchanged format and genetic issues persist, in many breeds. If something isn't working you need change.

CEO's are making more bank then ever before. I suspect this is also true with the AKC so i doubt anything of any significance will change anytime soon except for the size of the checks the directors cash.

 

[Matt Vandart]

Dobes4ever

I am lost to what you mean. Why have you quoted half of my post when the second half answers your question? Have I logged into "another board" by mistake here?

Consideration could be taken into a judges score sheet from a show, so even if the dog isn't the best there, an acceptable level of conformation (scored) could entitle the dog for breeding (along with a working title/s) this would help deal with popular sire syndrome.
Line breeding is fine, if it is for a purpose that betters the breed without compromising the health of the line.
For example to 'fix' an appropriate temperament (as in set it, not repair it) but if those dogs are both carriers or affected of a genetic problem then, well you know what happens then.

 

[FredC]

Have I logged into "another board" by mistake here?

Gets harder and harder to tell the difference every day lately.

 

[Matt Vandart]

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, especially a breeder that does actually do all the correct things but say the breed standard got changed, to something you didn't like?Something that wasn't in your dogs?
What would you do then? Would you still think the KC was the best thing since sliced bread?
Why was the standard in temperament changed?
What was the motivation?
Did it make a better dog?
No it most certainly didn't, it made the possibility of a dog that many people are having great trouble with, a dog reactive dog, one of the biggest pains in the ass a dog can be AND a very bad trait in a protection or service dog.
The standard may be the best we have but it is flawed in some ways, it is certainly not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Where was the standard in temperament changed??? Many breeders have not been breeding for it but I was not aware of the standard changing nor the class as a working dog.

Matt I wish everyone would just go to some shows and see some real Dobermans - You will see a big difference in well bred dogs compared to those bred with no thought of standard at all.

Sadly I agree with you that most working breeds seem to get split in half show vs working. If we solve that problem then we fix a lot of the others.

Please don't misunderstand - I know its problems intimately from the inside and the reason for a change would really have to go a long way in improving things for me to support it. What we have is great but people (breeders) have to follow it. JQP should educate themselves and not support dogs that are BYB for lack of a better word. But everytime someone buys a dog from someone who does not show or work their dogs you will find the dogs do not stand up to the standard more often than they do. That compounds the problem - as long as breeders are supported who do not do anything but breed the problem will persist.

 

[Matt Vandart]

Where was the standard in temperament changed???

To incorporate 'An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness.' can't remember the date it was changed, but it was, think it was the 70's.
A dog that would rather fight other dogs is no use whatsoever to the dobermans original intended purpose.

 

[Dobs4ever]

<quote>1948 Doberman Standard in America
Conformation and General Appearance: Elegant in appearance, of proud carriage, reflecting great nobility and temperament. Energetic, watchful,determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient.

Disqualifying Faults: Shyness, viciousness.
Shyness: A dog shall be judge fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination, it shrinks away from the judge; if it fears an approach from the rear; it shy from sudden and unusual noises to a marked degree. Viciousness: A dog that attacks or attempts to attack, the judge or its handler is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness.</quote>

Since the Doberman was bred to work specifically with man dog aggression has never been a fault but it has been sadly misunderstood so had to be included so judges did not dismiss a dog for it that otherwise qualified.

Registries were never meant to be genetic police. That is why they are registries and it has and always should be up to the breeder to screen their stock for any issues that may crop up.

 

[Matt Vandart]

There you go then it was changed in the 40's.
I will try and say it again in a different order.
If your dog is dog aggressive, it cannot do the job it was intended for effectively and efficiently.

 

[Matt Vandart]

Also the breed standard has been changed a number of times. The doberman is not the historic doberman by any stretch of the imagination.
along with the dog reactive change was the change in the 20's regarding size. A male doberman used to be smaller than a female is now, 21" I think it was.
There are other changes I am sure, can't remember them at the mo, maybe someone else will.
Basically what I am saying is the standard now is not the original standard and the doberman now is not the original dog.

 

[Ataro]

Also the breed standard has been changed a number of times. The doberman is not the historic doberman by any stretch of the imagination.
along with the dog reactive change was the change in the 20's regarding size. A male doberman used to be smaller than a female is now, 21" I think it was.
There are other changes I am sure, can't remember them at the mo, maybe someone else will.
Basically what I am saying is the standard now is not the original standard and the doberman now is not the original dog.

I need to go dig up my old threads where I posted all that information. Here's the source for the stuff in English, though:
Evolution of Breed Standards | ADPEF
This is specifically about size (and head type): Progress in Head Type and Size in Doberman Pinscher between 1899-1970 | ADPEF

 

[Matt Vandart]

Don't get me started on heads, please......

 

[Ataro]

There you go then it was changed in the 40's.
I will try and say it again in a different order.
If your dog is dog aggressive, it cannot do the job it was intended for effectively and efficiently.

I'd better go tell my Schutzhund club that their most titled dogs are wrong (several of the SchH3 dogs there are same-sex aggressive).

 

[Matt Vandart]

Indeed lolz.
There is a difference between a schutzhund field and walking around with a bag full of tax money, if mr doberman had been jumped by some ner'dowells with a jack russel or bull terrier then he didn't want his dog going for that instead of the assailants.
Same holds true today.
Also a doberman wasn't created for schutzhund neither was schutzhund created for the doberman, this I believe is why it is so hard for dobermans to title in it.
The test was designed for a predominantly herding breed, a more biddable at a distance (?) animal.
The doberman was bred for close quarter PP within the sphere of influence of the handler/owner.
Everyone must have experienced the dobermans hearing disability once it is say 10ft away from you and can't be arsed to listen anymore.
It didn't need to retrieve, it didn't need to even take down at a distance, did it even need to take down at all? I know these are all obedience things but herders will have retrieved and taken down at a distance for generations let alone work independently.

 

[Ataro]

Same sex aggressive dogs aren't necessarily out of control. When you have Dobermann males showing together at dog shows, or dogs working near each other on Schutzhund club grounds, you aren't going to get fighting. It's when they're let loose around each other that the problems come up. I know what you're getting at when it comes to say, dogs bred for dog aggression and fighting, but that kind of dog aggression is not the common kind you see in Dobes. I'm sure there are Dobes like that, but that is not what I have seen at shows, training etc. so far.

In regards to Schutzhund, I haven't seen any working line Dobes with troubles getting titles in Schutzhund. Getting angekört is whole different level, though, of course (for which Dobermanns requires a SchH-1 title along with having passed the endurance test to participate).

Can't say I have had problems with my Dobe's recall or obeying at a distance myself... ?

 

[kaloric]

Registries were never meant to be genetic police. That is why they are registries and it has and always should be up to the breeder to screen their stock for any issues that may crop up.

What I'm kind of hearing here is that, "Papers are important and identify reputable breeders, except when they don't, because breeders screen their own stock, should be left to make any breeding decisions at their own discretion, and the registry shouldn't be second-guessing or policing them at all." Which brings us back to the point that I was making before, that papers mean precious little, they're just a compilation of data which only mattered to the dog before it was conceived. That assumes it even mattered to the dog before it was conceived, because if the breeder didn't understand or make an appropriate decision made on the information in the pedigree, it was just a bunch of data for the sake of having data on pretty certificates, which could then be used to print-up even more data-laden certificates.

So should it be completely on the honor system that breeders are following best practices and breeding stock that have merit? Tell me this, if the registry shouldn't be policing anything, then why even have a standard at all? It's just a studbook, and a dog is a Doberman if each of its parents were Dobermans, seems to be what you're saying. Self-certification is a joke, when foxes are in charge of the hen-house, it's really no wonder there are problems.

Collecting data on ancestry & testing is useful and all, but if there's not any practical oversight, there's just not much of a statement of value on any of the animals represented by the data.

 

[Matt Vandart]

Same sex aggressive dogs aren't necessarily out of control. When you have Dobermann males showing together at dog shows, or dogs working near each other on Schutzhund club grounds, you aren't going to get fighting. It's when they're let loose around each other that the problems come up. I know what you're getting at when it comes to say, dogs bred for dog aggression and fighting, but that kind of dog aggression is not the common kind you see in Dobes. I'm sure there are Dobes like that, but that is not what I have seen at shows, training etc. so far.

In regards to Schutzhund, I haven't seen any working line Dobes with troubles getting titles in Schutzhund. Getting angekört is whole different level, though, of course (for which Dobermanns requires a SchH-1 title along with having passed the endurance test to participate).

Can't say I have had problems with my Dobe's recall or obeying at a distance myself... ?

Yes but that is a schutzhund field, a controlled environment. Also we are not talking same sex here but rather a standard that says 'It's ok breed that dog that is vicious to other dogs'

It's when they're let loose around each other that the problems come up.

A criminal is hardly going to put his dog/s on a long down while he mugs you is he/she now?

Also when you are out on a walk, your dog has NEVER continued sniffing something it likes because you are not close enough for it to bother?
You have done well then.
I had my dogs recalling from a football field length away when they were 6 months old, it doesn't mean that they will not ignore me sometimes if they have found a particularly nice bit of otter turd to smell now they are 18months old.

So hard is the wrong word then, so few is a better one.

 

[Ataro]

What constitutes vicious is subjective... but if a dog cannot focus in a controlled environment and goes absolutely ape shit whenever another dog is around, then I think it's safe to say it isn't the best representative of the breed that is supposed to be focused on protecting you.

Schutzhund training is not protection training - it's a bite sport, and was originally designed to evaluate breeding stock.

And actually, my dog sniffs a lot but if I tell her to aus she does. The one time when she gets very distracted is when her heat is coming up and during the first week of the heat (during her heat, she is not let off leash anyway). I would attribute that more to hormones in general, than Dobe specific behaviour.

 

[Matt Vandart]

Indeed it was, a test for German Shepard dogs.

 

[Ataro]

True, but it is not completely irrelevant for other breeds when testing for certain drives. The sport itself has evolved, as have the breeds, and today you can see not only the GSD competing (it has been overtaken by the Mal by now, I'm pretty sure), but Rotties, Dutchies, Dobes, Airedales, Hovawarts etc. What makes you think that the Dobe is not versatile enough if all those other breeds are? Not all that compete are herding breeds.

The same argument could be made about agility... would you see that sport as more relevant or suitable for the Dobe?

 

[Matt Vandart]

Indeed not all are herding breeds but the ones that do well from the other breeds are exceptions rather than the rule for the breed wouldn't you say?

I personally don't see the doberman as a sport dog at all, not in it's original sense.
I know I am being a bit obtuse here but I think it would be better to produce a test that actually tested the Doberman as a breed itself to enhance the breeds characteristics rather than trying to fit the doberman peg into a hole shaped like a gsd.