Even if that's not the case, how about folks assume that was the cause and get back to the good ol' days, even if they never were?
What is Registration and What Registery is best?
- Thread starter Dobs4ever
- Start date
Even if that's not the case, how about folks assume that was the cause and get back to the good ol' days, even if they never were?
Matt Vandart
Hot Topics Subscriber
Not rude at all, I am perfectly happy to admit my mistakes. It was a mistake on my part come about from my misguided belief that all breeders did their best to breed the best. These are the first duffers I have ever had. The pups drives and characters seemed sound to me but clearly they didn't have robust enough temperaments, things have effected them more than any other dogs I have ever owned, their temperaments have have basically been broken by simple stuff another dog with a stable temperament would just shake off.
I also had to supress their drives for the sake of the sanity of the other humans in the house, I like bouncy crackers dogs, many people do not.
I basically was spoilt by my last breeder without realising it, she bred good dogs, I thought everyone did, having never ended up with a duffer in 20 odd years sorta makes you think that way. Anyway she stopped breeding because of the docking ban. So I had to find another, naively, like is said I just went with the nearest. Bad error.
I have always picked my dogs by judgeing the parents and the pups myself, I know what I want in a dog, I don't need a third party to tell me what I want.
No she did not show or trial, she is an askhole.
It has worked for me for years.
I will not make this mistake again.
It's not just my dogs, nearly every dobe I have met recently has been 'spooky', I have met two in the last year that were not, out of maybe 20.
The question I ask myself is why you are getting so defensive about this, clearly you are not the breeders I am talking about, or are you denying that garbage breeders are not out there and in fact in the majority.
If you want evidence that the dobermans temperament has gone downhill, just ask yourself why Police forces everywhere are using Malinois instead?
Some in this country outright tell you they will not use dobermans and even put on their websites that they are 'too highly strung'.
Security companies in general, are not using dobermans anymore either.
Dobermans have become a bit of a joke for many people and it is heralded as a miraculous event when one gets high scores in higher titles, yet Mals are blitzing through at very young ages.
These dobermans are the exception, not the rule, just look at the numbers, 1700 registered in one year in UK, how many of them will even title in SchuH 1?
10 if you're lucky?
Even Doberman judges that trial in SchuH and breed dobermans are buying themselves a nice well bred GSD, what does that say about the breed?
Fact of the matter is, in general the average Doberman has not the temperament (or stability) to do the work, the ones that do are the exceptions and as such are very special.
These two will probably be the last dobermans I will own.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Matt - thank you for being honest and answering my queston. I ask because it is hard to judge ALL breeders and dobermans if you did not go to a good breeder who does the right things. Even will all that things can still go wrong. But it should always start with valid registration and a solid working breeder for your best chance at success.
If the dogs had to be suppressed due to living conditons again that makes a big difference - Dobermans are not GSD or Mals. Personally regardless of what the police do I would not have a mall on a bet and many that got so excited about them are phasing them out why - funny thigs is too HIGH STRUNG.
Dobermans lost popularity long ago it is not a recent thing and it happened long before the temperaments really fell off. But people who were willing to work and train them also fell of as the computer age took over and people did not have to get up and go outside and actually do something. You can't train a doberman like you train a GSD or mal and yo can't push them not to mention the lack of undercoat.
Working with DVG and UDC as I do I see a lot of good Dobermans so my real life experience is very different.
If the dogs had to be suppressed due to living conditons again that makes a big difference - Dobermans are not GSD or Mals. Personally regardless of what the police do I would not have a mall on a bet and many that got so excited about them are phasing them out why - funny thigs is too HIGH STRUNG.
Dobermans lost popularity long ago it is not a recent thing and it happened long before the temperaments really fell off. But people who were willing to work and train them also fell of as the computer age took over and people did not have to get up and go outside and actually do something. You can't train a doberman like you train a GSD or mal and yo can't push them not to mention the lack of undercoat.
Working with DVG and UDC as I do I see a lot of good Dobermans so my real life experience is very different.
Don't you know, all of a Doberman's nervousness and weak temperament is contained within its tail and ear tips. That is why they should be removed.
Ataro
Notable member
That would actually be a great reason to C&D, if it were true.
Ataro
Notable member
paintinsthegame You have missed the point of my post entirely: the exam is not about breeding a better Dobermann, it is on the basic hands on care of a pregnant bitch and her puppies and bureaucracy of registering a litter etc. If someone decides to just up and start breeding with no prior contact to other breeders, where are they going to get the information from? Yes, they should take it upon themselves to read up on it, but not everyone does. I don't see any difference between this formality and one like an exam to get your driver's license.This is practical knowledge and it's obviously something that does not take a great deal of effort.
Gelcoater There has been no further decrease in registrations is the point I am getting at (the registrations remain steady with a slight increase in the last couple of years from a low point). The numbers do not correlate with the introduction of the C&D bans. Why people are no longer as interested in Dobermanns in general, or in paying $2500AUD for a pet quality Dobermann on limited registration is a question that is not easily answered. There are plenty of unpapered Dobes being advertised at pretty much any time at about 1/4 of the price, though... which is of course, not easily converted into statistics.
The way I am starting to see the breeders' view in this discussion is: the Dobermann is declining in popularity, so any breeder right now (apart from puppy mills) is basically better than nothing.
There's no doubt that there are breeders out there who breed for pets only, but who health test their stock etc. who of course, can't be compared to puppy mills or people who are cruel to animals leaving puppies out in the snow etc.... but claiming they breed "for the betterment of the breed"? I don't find this kind of approach to be very convincing or truthful. If people are just breeding pets then they should just tell it how it is and stop hiding behind this facade of deep philosophical involvement. The kind of effort it takes to create a breed is similar to what it takes to improve it toward a specific goal (ie. a team of breeders with a unified aim), and that's just not what most breeding programs are.
Matt Vandart - No. Don't give up!
Gelcoater There has been no further decrease in registrations is the point I am getting at (the registrations remain steady with a slight increase in the last couple of years from a low point). The numbers do not correlate with the introduction of the C&D bans. Why people are no longer as interested in Dobermanns in general, or in paying $2500AUD for a pet quality Dobermann on limited registration is a question that is not easily answered. There are plenty of unpapered Dobes being advertised at pretty much any time at about 1/4 of the price, though... which is of course, not easily converted into statistics.
The way I am starting to see the breeders' view in this discussion is: the Dobermann is declining in popularity, so any breeder right now (apart from puppy mills) is basically better than nothing.
There's no doubt that there are breeders out there who breed for pets only, but who health test their stock etc. who of course, can't be compared to puppy mills or people who are cruel to animals leaving puppies out in the snow etc.... but claiming they breed "for the betterment of the breed"? I don't find this kind of approach to be very convincing or truthful. If people are just breeding pets then they should just tell it how it is and stop hiding behind this facade of deep philosophical involvement. The kind of effort it takes to create a breed is similar to what it takes to improve it toward a specific goal (ie. a team of breeders with a unified aim), and that's just not what most breeding programs are.
Matt Vandart - No. Don't give up!
Matt Vandart
Hot Topics Subscriber
Lack of coherent goal is a major problem and was outlined in a paper by a dude contracted to look at the problem by someone or other to do with dobermans can't remember, which is a fat lot of good.
If I find the link I will post it.
If I find the link I will post it.
Part of statistics is comparing the correct metrics. Years vs. Number of Registrations only tells us the "what", which is that popularity of Dobermans declined. There is something else, another metric (or more than one), that offers some semblance of a correlation which would explain the "why". "Average price of a registered purebred puppy" could definitely be one, if such statistics had been tracked. "Number of litters from performance-titled dogs & bitches" could be another that might speak to a decline in proper temperament or working ability.
It could be that there haven't been enough Dobermans featured on TV and in movies lately, so they're dropping out of the public consciousness. Maybe what we need is a modern remake of the Doberman Gang movies or a new show with Doberman co-stars. Seriously, who didn't find the Lads in Magnum, P.I. as awesome as Hawaii, Tom Selleck's moustache, or the new Ferrari 308 Targa he drove around? That's right, they're as awesome as all those awesome things, and people probably just need a reminder.
Seconded!
People who are dissatisfied with the status quo are in the best position to push for change, or make change happen.
I haven't been around the breed as long as many of the more experienced Doberman folks on board, but in the 2 1/2 years we've been showing in the AKC I've only seen a handful entered in OB or Rally and only 1 at the Utility B level. Judges as well as competitors have made statements to us that they rarely see good working Dobermans anymore. I can't comment on other venues because we are only involved in the AKC. But I would like to post some stats from the DPCA and see what you all think.
Awards/Statistics/Titles | Title Statistics
There has been a consistent drop in OB titles, while Conformation regardless of the amount of litters registered has maintained or gone up.
Awards/Statistics/Titles | Title Statistics
There has been a consistent drop in OB titles, while Conformation regardless of the amount of litters registered has maintained or gone up.
Ataro
Notable member
It's going to be difficult to increase the popularity of Dobes through media without ending up with 100s of puppies dumped in shelters because every kid wanted a Dobe after watching a movie like 101 Dalmatians. Matt Vandart made some very true statements about the quality of the Dobe going down, and the fact that it is no longer useful to the public.
There are basically only two options:
a) Change the image of the Dobe altogether and breed its temperament towards something else, e.g. performance in non-protection sport.
b) Improve the quality of the Dobe (as in, breeders working together) so that it can again be used in public service, and it is no longer a rarity to be titled in both conformation and work.
Part of statistics is comparing the correct metrics. Years vs. Number of Registrations only tells us the "what", which is that popularity of Dobermans declined. There is something else, another metric (or more than one), that offers some semblance of a correlation which would explain the "why". "Average price of a registered purebred puppy" could definitely be one, if such statistics had been tracked. "Number of litters from performance-titled dogs & bitches" could be another that might speak to a decline in proper temperament or working ability.
It could be that there haven't been enough Dobermans featured on TV and in movies lately, so they're dropping out of the public consciousness. Maybe what we need is a modern remake of the Doberman Gang movies or a new show with Doberman co-stars. Seriously, who didn't find the Lads in Magnum, P.I. as awesome as Hawaii, Tom Selleck's moustache, or the new Ferrari 308 Targa he drove around? That's right, they're as awesome as all those awesome things, and people probably just need a reminder.
Seconded!
Well Leia was suppossed to be featured on last nights Animal Planets " A year in Pup Culture", but sadly her clip got left on the cutting room floor.
Matt Vandart
Hot Topics Subscriber
dunno you got a link to it?
Well Leia was suppossed to be featured on last nights Animal Planets " A year in Pup Culture", but sadly her clip got left on the cutting room floor.
Matt Vandart
Hot Topics Subscriber
Same sort of stuff, if that is it, it's edited the one I read was like 20 or so pages.
Ataro
Notable member
Yeah, there used to be a PDF to the original translation on there, but it seems they just summarized it. Or it might have been this one:
http://www.dobermann-review.com/info_library/Breeding/DobermannGenome/DobermannGenome.pdf
http://www.dobermann-review.com/info_library/Breeding/DobermannGenome/DobermannGenome.pdf
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
The exam can't be about breeding a better doberman if it is on basic hands on care of a pregnant bitch and puppy and how to register a litter. That has nothing to do with breeding a better Doberman. We have always had our vets and MENTORS in the breed to guide us - NO test will ever take the place of a great Mentor and vet. It is system that transends all the book learning in the world.Test are just so limited.
Every doctor and vet that comes out of school has to spend a couple years working in the real world to really begin to get a handle on how the real world works and that the text books are not always right. 10 years from now you will understand a lot better.
As far as the cost I know you are way to young to understand but back when you felt Dobermans were affordable we did not have all the health test you demand, gas was not 4.00 a gallon. every vet could give you a pretty decent crop, quality dog food was what ever you fed and affordable to the average family and Dobermans are an elete breed with elete needs and that does not equate to cheap.
Matt Vandart
Hot Topics Subscriber
Which is what was said, read your own quote.
Above all responsible breeding must be about the health and welfare of the litter/dam. The rest is add ons, add ons of importance yes, but add ons none the less.
Matt Vandart
Hot Topics Subscriber
Thats the one yes, thanks, everyone familiar with it?
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