" Total Dog" breeding, proofing, etc lets yak!

[Nordika]

So since DPCA is a dobe breed club, and
UDC is a dobe breed club,
and the breeders and owners who worked so hard at DPCA regional chapters, showed to win at AKC/DPCA naturally would resent an easier path.

I'm not sure I understand, easier path to what? The DPCA is the parent club of the breed, the only one recognized by the AKC. They are the only one that can offer the CCA. The CCA is not a championship title, it's not a front end title, it's a backend title, just as its name implies: Certificate of Conformation Assessment. The CCA is an evaluation, provides written critiques and ensures a dog meets the AKC standard’s baseline requirements. The purpose of the CCA is to allow working line dogs to be evaluated against the breed standard to ensure they maintain acceptable physical structure, not prejudiced evaluation against a STYLE that is being shown in the breed ring. It does not confer the same prestige in show breeding circles as conformation titles, just as a WAE/WAC isn't an IGP3 title. The prospect here is that just because a dog has a working title, doesn't mean the dog meets the breed standard and is a good representative of the breed worthy of being bred, hence a certificate of conformation assessment says the dog has acceptable conformation without disqualifying faults. Likewise, just because a dog has a Championship show title, doesn't mean the dog is a good representative of the breed, hence the working aptitude certificate. Both show and working lines need to make a concerted effort to not lose what makes a Doberman a Doberman.

 

[Ravenbird]

It isn't some random AKC evaluator. The breed club selects their breed specialists/evaluators and whatever requirements they deem necessary.

Gotcha. I had only read the comments, had not gone to the links for info yet when I made my comment. I did go check it out and I looked at a couple of the breeds listed that are using it. Goldens are using it for education and a little bit of club income by have evaluations as a side thing at their club sponsored AKC shows. For the evaluators they do indicate that working GR's will not look like show GR's but can still fit the standard. The GR page had very explicit expectations of evaluations. The other two I glanced at did not seem so in depth on their requirements, but it is obvious that each breed can make it as strict as they want on choosing a qualified evaluator.

So since DPCA is a dobe breed club, and
UDC is a dobe breed club,
and the breeders and owners who worked so hard at DPCA regional chapters, showed to win at AKC/DPCA naturally would resent an easier path.

DPCA is THE breed club under AKC. UDC is under DPCA regarding titles in IGP. They have to submit the info to DPCA before you can get your IGP title recognition by AKC.

From UDC website:

The UDC is the official source for AKC recognition of working titles for Dobermans. The Doberman Pinscher Club of America and its parent club, the American Kennel Club, which is the single breed registry in the United States that is recognized by the FCI, recognize the United Doberman Club as the official endorsing organization for the AKC recognition of IPO(schutzhund) titles earned by AKC registered Dobermans in the United States.

So yes, totally different club, but they are under DCPAs umbrella, which is under AKC's umbrella.

The CCA does sound like a good idea especially to those of us who have sport dogs, just want to get affirmation and a high five that they are indeed to standard. Not all working breeders bother to go the extra mile to show conformation, just as show breeders don't bother to get a CGC/+A/+U, or a novice obedience title, much less a working title. Breeders, it seems would benefit from it if they encouraged their pet owners to get a CCA, proving that their puppies that did not show are still within standard.

But back to the title of this thread: "Total Dog" - a tiny handful out of hundreds of breeders have any intention of putting titles on both ends. They breed for show or work/sports, the ones kept for breeding rarely do it all.

I imagine CCA would go over like a lead balloon if presented to DPCA. Many breeders hold AKC champion status as the only "worthy" measure. UKC conformation is what I've seen most often on working Dobe pedigrees, other than UDC club conformation, but not sure if UCH in front of the name is UKC or UDC? Anyone know if there is a distinction? And from what I've heard both UKC (all breed confo just like AKC) and UDC (Dobe only confo) do have verbal or written evaluations, but again, would have to go search the rules on that. My pea brain can't remember.

 

[Ravenbird]

There is another similar showing title, IABCA. Same context that dogs don't compete against each other, simply judged to the standard. So 5 dogs can be in the class and all 5 can pass. Show under different judges in weekend, and with 3 passes you get your basic conformation title.

I thought it sounded like a good idea, a fun way to start my dog in conformation, but again, the feedback I got basically frowned on it, saying what kind of title is that if 5 dogs from the same class can all get a championship in a weekend? And my response is, just because a dog isn't BETTER than another dog doesn't mean it's not a GOOD dog. There are SO MANY good dogs out there but the gene pool is sucked down to a small puddle because only the best is bred to the best.

International Dog Show

IABCA calendar

www.iabca.com

 

[BGpa]

Gotcha. I had only read the comments, had not gone to the links for info yet when I made my comment. I did go check it out and I looked at a couple of the breeds listed that are using it. Goldens are using it for education and a little bit of club income by have evaluations as a side thing at their club sponsored AKC shows. For the evaluators they do indicate that working GR's will not look like show GR's but can still fit the standard. The GR page had very explicit expectations of evaluations. The other two I glanced at did not seem so in depth on their requirements, but it is obvious that each breed can make it as strict as they want on choosing a qualified evaluator.


DPCA is THE breed club under AKC. UDC is under DPCA regarding titles in IGP. They have to submit the info to DPCA before you can get your IGP title recognition by AKC.

From UDC website:

The UDC is the official source for AKC recognition of working titles for Dobermans. The Doberman Pinscher Club of America and its parent club, the American Kennel Club, which is the single breed registry in the United States that is recognized by the FCI, recognize the United Doberman Club as the official endorsing organization for the AKC recognition of IPO(schutzhund) titles earned by AKC registered Dobermans in the United States.

So yes, totally different club, but they are under DCPAs umbrella, which is under AKC's umbrella.

The CCA does sound like a good idea especially to those of us who have sport dogs, just want to get affirmation and a high five that they are indeed to standard. Not all working breeders bother to go the extra mile to show conformation, just as show breeders don't bother to get a CGC/+A/+U, or a novice obedience title, much less a working title. Breeders, it seems would benefit from it if they encouraged their pet owners to get a CCA, proving that their puppies that did not show are still within standard.

But back to the title of this thread: "Total Dog" - a tiny handful out of hundreds of breeders have any intention of putting titles on both ends. They breed for show or work/sports, the ones kept for breeding rarely do it all.

I imagine CCA would go over like a lead balloon if presented to DPCA. Many breeders hold AKC champion status as the only "worthy" measure. UKC conformation is what I've seen most often on working Dobe pedigrees, other than UDC club conformation, but not sure if UCH in front of the name is UKC or UDC? Anyone know if there is a distinction? And from what I've heard both UKC (all breed confo just like AKC) and UDC (Dobe only confo) do have verbal or written evaluations, but again, would have to go search the rules on that. My pea brain can't remember.

Good question "how many breeders get titles in show and confo?"

If UKC/UDC had a shorter but valid path to AKC accepted standard on confo that would draw more working line and total dog breeders into the mix. One step at a time.

Frankly, unless I am into ribbons etc, I dont see the point of the ambiguos, expensive, and elaborate process of "finishing", except to help make show breeders make money by a cartel like areangement to eliminate competition.

There are a couple articles on the DPCA education page that discuss the role of DPCA and belief of members they should do more for breeders and less for say, rescue.

Any organization is political, of course.
The fact that so many doberman passionate people just dont show up or walk away is the message for DPCA, if they want it to continue.

I look at the pictures from the sidelines and see a last generation dying out and not many young faces showing up.

I could be very wrong of course, but this is one frank assessment from someone in the cheap seats tryung to understand the total scene, reading here and other places, daily.

Just my $0.02 and YMMV.

 

[BGpa]

I'm not sure I understand, easier path to what? The DPCA is the parent club of the breed, the only one recognized by the AKC. They are the only one that can offer the CCA. The CCA is not a championship title, it's not a front end title, it's a backend title, just as its name implies: Certificate of Conformation Assessment. The CCA is an evaluation, provides written critiques and ensures a dog meets the AKC standard’s baseline requirements. The purpose of the CCA is to allow working line dogs to be evaluated against the breed standard to ensure they maintain acceptable physical structure, not prejudiced evaluation against a STYLE that is being shown in the breed ring. It does not confer the same prestige in show breeding circles as conformation titles, just as a WAE/WAC isn't an IGP3 title. The prospect here is that just because a dog has a working title, doesn't mean the dog meets the breed standard and is a good representative of the breed worthy of being bred, hence a certificate of conformation assessment says the dog has acceptable conformation without disqualifying faults. Likewise, just because a dog has a Championship show title, doesn't mean the dog is a good representative of the breed, hence the working aptitude certificate. Both show and working lines need to make a concerted effort to not lose what makes a Doberman a Doberman.

Thanks, I misspoke on clubs, and a closer look helps explain the purpose.

 

[BGpa]

Anyhoo...back to my bottomline in creating discussion on bred to function dogs, ie Total Dobermans per Ray Carlisle...

Do you all have any breeder names that have proofed success in both work and confo with an emphasis and proof on health and longevity?

With the demonstrated temperament in some litters, and placements in homes currently willing to provide validation of use for therapy and Service Dog work?

Here is one from my list, just as an example- see the explanation of what they do:

Melrae Dobermans

Home page of Melrae Dobermans, a breeder from Paducah, KY. AKC CH Dobermans

www.melraedobermans.com

PS: not asking for a critique, criticism, judgements on breeders- just names for a short list.

And @Rits can you please share your breeder landing page? You are the example of an up and comer that I'd look at too, dont care if DPCA member or not.

Thank you!

 

[BGpa]

There is another similar showing title, IABCA. Same context that dogs don't compete against each other, simply judged to the standard. So 5 dogs can be in the class and all 5 can pass. Show under different judges in weekend, and with 3 passes you get your basic conformation title.

I thought it sounded like a good idea, a fun way to start my dog in conformation, but again, the feedback I got basically frowned on it, saying what kind of title is that if 5 dogs from the same class can all get a championship in a weekend? And my response is, just because a dog isn't BETTER than another dog doesn't mean it's not a GOOD dog. There are SO MANY good dogs out there but the gene pool is sucked down to a small puddle because only the best is bred to the best.

International Dog Show

IABCA calendar

www.iabca.com

By the way, MAGA kudos and YUGE thanks to you @Ravenbird for all your research and sharing on this topic and your journey.
Invaluable.
A deep bow of respect
-BGpa

 

[Ravenbird]

Do you all have any breeder names that have proofed success in both work and confo with an emphasis and proof on health and longevity?

Here is DPCA's list of Noteworthy Champions - highest level at multiple sports, show CH is usually one + a sport, but a few are highest level at 2 different sports.

Noteworthy Champions | DPCA

dpca.org

I counted a total of 101 in all. Not many considering how many Dobermans in the history of AKC. Fun to go through them all and look at photos. As for breeders of said dogs, Dobequest link is on each dog listed. If one is looking for a well rounded dog, you could go to the pedigrees and find offspring or sibs that may have been used in breeding on the more recent listings. Note only 12 dogs are listed as IGP3 with an AKC CH.