Bullmastiffs

Gorgeous! Cute now but looks like he/she will have a good big head, (and mouth), when grown so that intimidating factor you are looking for is likely. What does Oji think about all this? You still have Oji don't you?
 
What we have here is an intentionally bred hybrid that is supposed to be protective, athletic, dry mouthed, healthy and pretty large. Zephyr, as my older daughter named him, is living up to most of that so far at the age of right at 6 months.

Turned 6 months maybe a week ago. I don't think that straight little mark on his right, lower leg is actually a marking. It might be a piece of grass. About a month ago, at 5 months of age, he weighed about 53 lbs. Right now, at 6 months, I'd say he's the height at the withers of an adult female Dobe. Breeder says he will be 30 -32 inches at the withers and 120 - 130 lbs. We shall see. I really like his semi-curled tail – hailing from his Kangal/Anatolian roots.
ZstackAlmst6mo.JPG

Quick note: I have been told that the term hybrid refers to a mix of species ? and not a mix of breeds. Noted; but hybrid is what they are called in the dog world.

Zephyr is made up of:

50% Turkish Kangal
25% Anatolian Shepherd (but that consists, actually, of about 60% Anatolian Shepherd and 40% Great Pyrenees)
25% Midgard Mastiff
• Midgard Mastiff is a hybrid, or bandog, consisting of a mix of working Mastiffs – specimens of Mastiffs that are capable in body and mind. We are not talking oversized, overdone, excessively adorned with loose skin, lazy, unhealthy Mastiffs. In fact there is NO English Mastiff in them. I need to sit down and look up the percentages of Zephyr's grandsire and granddam, but Neopolitan Mastiff and German Mastiff (Great Dane) play significantly in there, along with smaller percentages of other breeds like Dogue de Bordeaux, American Bulldog, – even a tiny bit of Bullmastiff, who'da thunk?

I will include a link to the Midgard Mastiffs website. I talked about them earlier in this thread, and how I had a phone call with that breeder, David, and for a time was pretty much decided on getting one of those.

I will also include a link to the website of Zephyr's actual breeder, Nordgard Mastiffs who is just a few litters into his program.

So Zephyr is 75% Livestock Guardian (LGD) breeds, and 25% bandog.

Yes, I was cautious and apprehensive about choosing such a dog for my family; but boy, so far he is just such a goofy, doggy dog – much more a regular old dog than a Doberman. He wags his thick tail excessively! His wagging is so much that he actually wags his front end as well when he is really going for it. :lolsign: I was warned by LGD breed purists against trying to keep an LGD as a house dog and without a large yard to patrol. I realize a lot of that kind of talk is not necessarily accurate, and may be lovers of the breeds being breed purists and trying to make out like their breeds are something so special and mystical and couldn't be handled by the uninitiated, or adapt to a purpose other than that for which it was developed. Yes, these primitive LGDs (maybe not so much the Pyrenees now that it has been mainstreamed for so long) developed naturally – landrace breeds – and have been around for thousands of years. I do believe that they may not adapt very well to living as a house dog and to not having a large property to patrol. I am hoping it will work out. So far, Zephyr has been working out just fine, and needs a lot less stimulation than a Doberman! What's more, I feel that his Midgard Mastiff side plays heavily in him. Those breeds are from very focused breeding programs, and in my layman's mind, much like we see that Doberman traits carry heavy in Dobe mixes, I think that his 25%Midgard Mastiff genes contribute powerfully to his makeup. So, when it comes to a dog like a bandog such as the Midgard Mastiff, they absolutely can be kept as house dogs if given sufficient exercise and stimulation – much like a working dog like the Doberman.

No, there is no health testing that I am aware of that has been done on the breeding stock of these dogs. The breeders (both of them) rely on what is known as Hybrid Vigor. Yes, you can find people online who try to debunk the concept of Hybrid Vigor, but you can find people on both sides of any topic. Maybe those here with much better understanding of genetics will weigh in with their opinions on the topic. Feel free.

I will tell you that the purchase price of my pup was very much lower than the going rate for a purebred from a good breeder. The same could be said for Midgard Mastiffs up until recently, when he raised his price significantly. My breeder, I surmise, is priced so low because he has not yet proven his program over time, and built a reputation. Over the course of extensive communications with the man, however, I judge him to be an intelligent, sincere, knowledgeable experienced guy. Yes, the results of his mixing of dogs will naturally be a wildcard, so to speak; but I liked what I saw in my pup and decided to go for it – choosing him over a small handful of other top-contending purebreds such as the Cane Corso, American Akita, Boerboel, and yes, the Bullmastiff. I had breeders lined up for each of those breeds, having had phone calls with each and been approved as a home.

I only had to travel 2.5 hours to pick up Zephyr, as the breeder from MI kindly offered to meet me about 1/2 way and didn't even ask for an additional fee for that. I chose to pay him one, however.



It's getting past my bedtime, and this post has gotten long. I will try to post a pic of his sire and dam. On the Norgard website, his dam appears on the homepage on the right.
 
All that matters in the long run is that you had in mind what you wanted and you searched until you found it! With proper training and handling I think he'll be a fine family dog for you. Love his name & his stripes!

Hybrid Vigor is a thing, because *usually* genes need to come from both parents to become more prominent. The biggest thing with large breeds that are in your pup that comes to my mind is hip dysplasia. That can't be tested except by x-ray, no Embark for that one, lol. This is something that could be found in any of the breeds you listed, so unless knowing what the individuals hips look like, you wouldn't know if you are producing bad hips until years down the line. Only mentioning this because you asked. I don't know what genetic woes these breeds might have, but always breeding "like x like = more of it". A Doberman x Boxer would not produce less DCM since the Boxer has just the same high genetic tendencies for DCM - so hybrid vigor would not help DCM rates with that cross. Hope that makes sense.

Your pup may very well become your dream dog - I hope he does! I'll look at your links later to his family. I'm excited for you and hope you post more about him, his personality and his puppy antics. He won't be a puppy for long!
 
It's great to hear more about him now that you have him. He is indeed a handsome boy and I'm glad he's working out so well for you!
 
Are you also on Mastiff-Forum, by chance? Probably a long shot, but there's a Doberman owner there that has been considering similar breeds -- figured I'd check if I'm talking to the same person ;)

Either way, I'm very impressed with the community here - quite a lively and open minded discussion. Certainly more active than Mastiff-Forum.

I got my male Bullmastiff puppy a few weeks ago from the same breeder you've been considering -- happy to share my thoughts / limited experience if you're still considering the breed.

Initial impressions -- physically very robust and powerful for a puppy & quite muscular. My pup has a longer more historically accurate / functional muzzle as opposed to the overdone pug look some breeders pedal. Temperamentally seeks company and affection but is also dominant and constantly pushing boundaries + very stubborn.

I emphasize stubbornness because that has been my only real frustration so far, even though I read about it a lot during breed research. I know temperament varies a lot by puppy, but it's far more stubbornness than I encountered working with other hard headed breeds rotties/pitts/boxers. Could be a big adjustment if you are coming from a command drive dog like a Doberman.

I'm excited to see him evolve into a large confident family/home guardian, and feel good about my decision so far :)
Hey, if you're still here: How is your Bullmastiff developing and how are things going? Any pics?
 
Pics of Zephyr! Keep in mind that he is, as of this post, only 10 months and 1 week. Some of these pics were taken a while back.

(below) He's just a bit younger here. Awww. He really looks cute a lot of the time.

ZKongInMouth.JPG

(below) Here he has his tail partially puffed up. A minute prior, it was puffed from base to tip. It's like someone blew it up like a long balloon. :rofl: He wass coming close to horses, which he'd never seen before.

ZcumberlandTailPuff.JPG

ZcumberlandOnPoint.JPG


(below) Self-stack:

ZObsPlOnPoint.JPG


(below) Always a stress relieving sight – exercised dog.



(below) Yes, the chickens were behind the fence, but he didn't show much of any drive to chase them. This was one thing that was intended in his breeding.



(below) Over a month ago on a long hike. We were at some very noisy falls and had climbed up onto some rocks.

 
Wonderful to see him, thanks so much for sharing! His self stack photo looks really nice, showing his build. Like you said, he's young yet and has lots of growth & filling out to do.
 
Below was copied from a f'book page of a hybrid dog breeder other than the author of the article: I've made contact with three breeders of hybrids now. (Yes, I remember that the word "hybrid" is technically not the right word, as advised a few posts above)
WHAT IS A HYBRID ?
A good read by Midgard Mastiffs
HYBRID VIGOR
Hybrid Vigor is a very useful tool to create healthy individual dogs, to create a healthy breed it has to be combine with serious health and performance based selection. Hybrid vigor can hide negative traits but only testing and selective breeding can eliminate them from a bloodline.
In order understand how hybrid vigor works you first need to understand a little about genetics. A gene is positioned on something called its locus. All genes have two copies – one inherited from the mother and the other from the father. Different combinations of genes produce different results, and some genes are dominant over others. Some loci are dominant over others, and sometimes genes sitting on different loci are needed for certain genes to show themselves.
The next thing you need to know is all “purebred” dogs are inbred to make them ‘breed true’, or produce offspring that look just like their parents- that’s how breeds are created. In an effort to guarantee pointless traits like the angle of a dog’s forehead relative to the angle of its muzzle, or a solid white coat, a dog would be selected who carried these traits and inbred to its own children and siblings to create a population which also carries these traits. Unfortunately, this inbreeding allows potentially negative recessive traits to surface by removing potentially positive dominant traits from the bloodline.
All pure/inbred breeds carry negative recessive traits. That’s really the key to why hybrid vigor works, these negative recessive traits are recessive.
Negative dominant traits show themselves in any dog who has a copy of that gene, and so are easy to bred against. People just don’t breed sick or deformed dogs. Recessive genes “hide” behind dominant ones. So you either need two copies of a recessive gene or it and an even more recessive gene for these negative traits to surface.
For example: Canine Dwarfism is a negative recessive trait. If both the sire and the dam are carriers, that means they each have a copy of the dwarf growth gene and a copy of the normal growth gene on the same locus. Since the dwarf gene is recessive and the normal gene dominant, both dogs are normal size. There is a 50% chance that either dog will pass one gene or the other on any locus. That means in a litter, on average:
25% will get the normal gene from the sire and the dwarf gene from the dam making them carriers as well
25% will get the normal gene from the dam and the dwarf gene from the sire making them carriers as well
25% will get the dwarf gene from both the dam and the sire making them dwarfs
25% will get the normal gene from both the dam and the sire making them healthy
Carrier to Carrier breeding
That means 75% of this litter is unbreedable, and 25% probably won’t live very long. The worst part is, with conditions we don’t have genetic tests for, there is no way to tell the difference between the normal dogs and the carriers. So these problems just get passed on from generation to generation.
Now on to hybrid vigor. Hybrid vigor is another name for the Heterosis effect. Heterosis just means that two genes sitting on a locus are different from one another. If a dog has the black and the brindle gene on its K locus, it shows heterosis. That dog will be black because black is dominant, and will carry for brindle. Some of this dog’s offspring will be black, and some will be brindle. This is not what show breeders want. They want a “good” stud to produce dogs just like himself. In an effort to get a dog who will only make black dogs they resort to inbreeding to get dogs who have two copies of the black gene sitting on the K locus. The problem is while they are destroying genetic diversity in the coat color the same thing is happening on other loci, allowing negative recessive traits to show themselves. This leaves the poor show breeder wondering why the healthy dogs he started with are starting to produce crippled, deformed, sickly, dying dogs.
However, when you cross two different breeds with different problems, it pushes the negative recessive traits back under the dominant genes from the other breed. This is hybrid vigor. This means negative genes for allergies, joint problems, cancer, heart problems, eye problems, etc just “vanish”. This creates a dog with less problems in their health and temperament. Hybrid dogs live longer, go to the vet less, make better mothers, produce more milk, and are more flexible in their training. For more information you can see this study on the effects of inbreeding both positive and negative. http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/index.php...
So don’t listen to the show breeders when they try to propagate hatred for “mutts”, and push the greatness of their inbred dogs.
Having owned and worked with hybrid dogs, I will never own another “purebred” dog unless I intend to cross breed it. All I hear when someone says their dog is a purebred with papers from champion lines, is that their dog is the inbred offspring of beauty pageant winners, and they have proof
Just found this after reference to "Bullmastiff" topic re: Beaucerons mention. I'm intrigued and always open to new ideas vs inbred human insistence on dogma, pun intended..😜
 
PS: thats a very handsome dog! Do you have livestock? Strong tall fence?

We are Good friends with a couple and kids who grew uo with ours, who have I guess a hobby farm, Or maybe a zoo...
mini horses, mini goats, chickens, now a cattery...😉
They Have been through two black faced Anatolians, that were up at night- death to coyotes. Very deep intimidating stare in first medting but once you win them over with a butt rub, would lay at your feet. Lemme tell you the two GSDs raised at same time deferred to the CAS. Carefully.

I Really like the foundation breeds but imho they have to have a job...and ideally that job doesnt involve killing digs in the absence if bears or wolves...🙃
In our neighborhood walks we pass by a house with a couple Akitas and have made friends from a distance, and me with the owner making friends with the dogs, who are quite friendly to humans...

but I'd never let my dog off leash with an Akita off leash, in the same zio code.

I do carry a good hiking stick with that titanium tip for ice that serves as a break stick if needed, and have fended off many too strong big dogs as needed, over the years, as I'm the leader. Bonnie is my wingman.

...but one thing I would not like to have to do ever, is get in the middle, of a kangol, akita, or working pyr dustup once fights on.
 
I couldn't find this thread via a search earlier., and thought maybe it got deleted. Here is the description of the Beauceron temperament:

 
PS: thats a very handsome dog! Do you have livestock? Strong tall fence?

We are Good friends with a couple and kids who grew uo with ours, who have I guess a hobby farm, Or maybe a zoo...
mini horses, mini goats, chickens, now a cattery...😉
They Have been through two black faced Anatolians, that were up at night- death to coyotes. Very deep intimidating stare in first medting but once you win them over with a butt rub, would lay at your feet. Lemme tell you the two GSDs raised at same time deferred to the CAS. Carefully.

I Really like the foundation breeds but imho they have to have a job...and ideally that job doesnt involve killing digs in the absence if bears or wolves...🙃
In our neighborhood walks we pass by a house with a couple Akitas and have made friends from a distance, and me with the owner making friends with the dogs, who are quite friendly to humans...

but I'd never let my dog off leash with an Akita off leash, in the same zio code.

I do carry a good hiking stick with that titanium tip for ice that serves as a break stick if needed, and have fended off many too strong big dogs as needed, over the years, as I'm the leader. Bonnie is my wingman.

...but one thing I would not like to have to do ever, is get in the middle, of a kangol, akita, or working pyr dustup once fights on.
That hiking stick sounds nice!

Thanks for the compliment on Zephyr, by the way. He really is a looker. I'm sure I talked about it a few times in this big ol' thread, but I prefer a dark colored dog, and not just for aesthetics, but for a couple of impactful reasons.

I have read in some comments online that brindle dogs shed less than fawn colored ones. That would be an added bonus. When I saw that a breeder I'd talked to had a litter of four with this brindle coat and varying levels of black heads/faces, I was intrigued.

I know I talked about American Akitas in here, and I definitely considered one. I had a phone call with a nice lady who breeds confo. Am. Akitas and they are beautiful; but the price was $4,800! Yes, every video I've seen of an Akita in a scrap with another dog shows the Akita dominating.

That's cool regarding the two A.S.s. Yep, working LGDs spend most/all their time outdoors and usually work all night and thus sleep most of the day. I notice you wrote "CAS" also. That, to me, means Central Asian Shepherd, which is a breed I admire quite a bit and talked about in here. They can be quite large, which I would love; but I don't know what the food bill would be, and honestly, it's hard enough to deal with Zephyr at 30" and about 110 lbs. A CAS at that height or taller, and 160 or 180 lbs.? If that dog does not want to move, it ain't moving. I also need to get to the truth about that claim that the mature CAS will not accept strangers into your house or onto your property no matter if you are commanding them to accept the stranger.
 

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