Blue Lacy dog breed
- Thread starter Ravenbird
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BG1
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Hunting hound dogs...blue tick, redbone, TN Tree Walking Coonhound...?I'd never heard of these before, thanks for posting.
Interesting looking breed, the tri color markings look so familiar
There's some Old Yeller in there I reckon!
This article was posted in a genetics page I follow. The surprises are never ending, and as I have said before, outcrossing can be done and easily get back to standard if done with a plan and knowledge of how the genes work. If it's too science-y to read it all, just the photos can tell the story. But the bottom line is that if you know what gene each dog carries, which ones are dominant or recessive, the predictions are actually easier than I thought.
Quote from the end of the article:
If your breed has high inbreeding crossbreeding can restore the genetic diversity that has been lost over the generations. Let go of fear and believe in genetics.
What about registering the puppies? Cattanach was able to register his by request. These days, the kennel clubs are under the gun to improve health "or else" (see the court case in Norway). Because there is no other way to do this than crossbreeding in most breeds, I expect there will be little resistance to registering puppies that descend from crossbreeding programs in the future.
Here's the whole article -
Quote from the end of the article:
If your breed has high inbreeding crossbreeding can restore the genetic diversity that has been lost over the generations. Let go of fear and believe in genetics.
What about registering the puppies? Cattanach was able to register his by request. These days, the kennel clubs are under the gun to improve health "or else" (see the court case in Norway). Because there is no other way to do this than crossbreeding in most breeds, I expect there will be little resistance to registering puppies that descend from crossbreeding programs in the future.
Here's the whole article -
The "catastrophe" of cross-breeding: meet the Borgis
By Carol Beuchat PhD
www.instituteofcaninebiology.org
BG1
Hot Topics Subscriber
I've read some of Dr Beauchat's articles in past...and @Ravenbird second your intellectual interest in out-crossing, cross-breeding, using new best genetic tools.This article was posted in a genetics page I follow. The surprises are never ending, and as I have said before, outcrossing can be done and easily get back to standard if done with a plan and knowledge of how the genes work. If it's too science-y to read it all, just the photos can tell the story. But the bottom line is that if you know what gene each dog carries, which ones are dominant or recessive, the predictions are actually easier than I thought.
Quote from the end of the article:
If your breed has high inbreeding crossbreeding can restore the genetic diversity that has been lost over the generations. Let go of fear and believe in genetics.
What about registering the puppies? Cattanach was able to register his by request. These days, the kennel clubs are under the gun to improve health "or else" (see the court case in Norway). Because there is no other way to do this than crossbreeding in most breeds, I expect there will be little resistance to registering puppies that descend from crossbreeding programs in the future.
Here's the whole article -
The "catastrophe" of cross-breeding: meet the Borgis
By Carol Beuchat PhDwww.instituteofcaninebiology.org
I think you posted a very useful comment copied from FB not long ago by Dr Sophie Liu about careful genetic selection could work...
I remember the hullabaloo in some quarters when she was interviewed on dobermanplanet...some shooting of messengers going on, it seems vs clear eyed discussion of science...
The DDP website is still up, providing a means to share genetic dna data, that goes to both Embark and U Utrecht.
I've posted here and elsewhere noting Embark has a breeder level tool that goes beyond breed origin and COI and markers.
(I dont understsnd the genetics well enough, nor am I a breeder but very interested in how its going for them.)
Wisdom offers Optimal Selection to breeders, which helps in litter prediction, with a different look at alleles, iirc.
Betterbred uses the same testing lab as UCDavis VGL incuding their Canine Diversity tool.
So the science is getting there...3 tools for breeders with some advantages to building breed diversity.
I'm intellectually interested and trying to become conversant enough in genetics to be able to ask breeders intelligent questions in future if/when shoppping for another big smart dog. My priority will be everything that makes a dobe great, smart, calm, confident man guardian with predictable and proofed temperament, drive plus longevity and good health in the pedigree going back 3-5 gen.
Is that a unicorn?
How do I rack and stack breeders who claim same, based on documentation of tools used for litter selection?
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BG1
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Money quote:This article was posted in a genetics page I follow. The surprises are never ending, and as I have said before, outcrossing can be done and easily get back to standard if done with a plan and knowledge of how the genes work. If it's too science-y to read it all, just the photos can tell the story. But the bottom line is that if you know what gene each dog carries, which ones are dominant or recessive, the predictions are actually easier than I thought.
Quote from the end of the article:
If your breed has high inbreeding crossbreeding can restore the genetic diversity that has been lost over the generations. Let go of fear and believe in genetics.
What about registering the puppies? Cattanach was able to register his by request. These days, the kennel clubs are under the gun to improve health "or else" (see the court case in Norway). Because there is no other way to do this than crossbreeding in most breeds, I expect there will be little resistance to registering puppies that descend from crossbreeding programs in the future.
Here's the whole article -
The "catastrophe" of cross-breeding: meet the Borgis
By Carol Beuchat PhDwww.instituteofcaninebiology.org
"The dog fancy is facing unprecedented challenges to improve the health of purebred dogs. These problems can be traced to the imposition of a closed gene pool on the population and selection for traits that compromise health. Because inbreeding is so high in all but a few breeds, improving health using selection within the existing gene pool is simply not possible. You can't solve a health problem by selection if the alleles you need are no longer in the gene pool. The only option at that point is to restore the genetic diversity of the gene pool of each breed by crossing with dogs that carry the needed variation. There really is no other way to do this. And as this experiment shows, the result will not be a breed-destroying catastrophe if done with proper planning. Take the time to understand the genetics and seek the guidance of experts that can map out a breeding strategy that will get you from cross to show quality dogs in the shortest number of generations."
I don't think it's possible to do on paper. The proof is in the pudding so to speak.
Create the unicorn in your mind (you already have), then talk to breeders, one by one. Most will say that's exactly the dog they produce
of course. Admit that you are a couple years out from purchasing said puppy and offer up your email address to the breeder and see if some of their puppy-buyers from the past would be kind enough to contact you with their experience with their "xyz kennel" dogs. I know some of my documentation of Ashas behavior as a puppy would have sent people running, but at the same time, if someone contacted me now I'd say it was all worth it for the dog I have now. I would also say absolutely not for a newbie pet owner. Also the breeder bred a full sister to Asha to a show line and I'm watching a puppy from that litter and she only has a smidgen of my dogs personality and some of it is completely opposite. So now you're back at square one - not only can they be different in one litter, but vastly different when using a different sire (with zero common ancestors in the first 3 -4 generations). A breeder who only has one or two liters a year will not have the numbers to show them what's working and what's not, especially regarding temperament rather than just physical looks. Hope this makes sense.
BG1
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Yes, it does. I'd be starting with physical health and longevity.I don't think it's possible to do on paper. The proof is in the pudding so to speak.
Create the unicorn in your mind (you already have), then talk to breeders, one by one. Most will say that's exactly the dog they produce
Then calm, confident, guardian temperament typical to the breed but sifter than PP, and dont need higher drive like Mal,
Plus with an off switch,
so I'm expecting there will be some performance pet level dogs that wont contribute to best of line breeding and development, or rehomes to breeder available to the right home.
Or foster from a breed rescue and sift thru a handful of dogs.
I'm sure there are a handful of newer breeders diung this- I see people doing IGP etc. And a couple have been mentioned as picking iut dogs for SD, going way back to Pilot Dogs-Joanna Walker, so its a nose work ecercise for me now.
@Ravenbird yes, agreed
It appears the genetic testing on health is showing some markers are statistically useful if not dog specific predictive, so one can only stack the deck but not expect perfection there. BYB nonnie is positive in CAH for the most penetrant APT7 iirc, so we are mediating diet proactively some on that too.
There are longitudinal studies underway on longevity but at 10 year duration at U MN (sent email no reply but BYB Bonnie may be "more noise than signal" given lack of pedigree...I'm not expecting much, in my timeline anyway..
As of now the useful verifiable data is limited to OFA, DobieQuest and that screen filters to a somewhat limited sample of breeders that actually reliably record there...
Thats unknown until I ask, and
if I were to survey every listed breeder on DPCA recommended list,
And UDC recommended breeder list,
what might I get in reply/see might be interesting...
(actually thats a nice lttle task/project for a grad student/study; thesis?
(Web Cruising Grok or ChatGPT take note ...)
From the fairly extensive reading on genetics as predictor of temperament, and behavior, it doesn't look to me like much usefil science has been done- genetics as predictive of behavior- see frontiers for a review thats inconclusive, on four small sample studies that just was published, with the only big study was 2012 iirc.
So its nature vs nurture on behavior imho,
and
Again, for intellectual interest on side topic, more useful in some ways on bigger picture"nature vs nurture";
I'm following Dukes collab with Canine Companions who are crossing goldenxlab inhouse, for wise calm intelligence, vs all the documented work they do training dogs with early socialization, critical learning, etc as part of getting to the pass at 18-24 months to begin detailed service task work.
I'm certain working dog folk know by experience what works, bred to performance just as cattle breeders, horse breeders know...we just dont yet have enough detailed dog science on breeding for behavior.
So its physical structure, documented physical health, longevity,
plus proven performance in something beyond confo.
ROM as a start, and whatever the equivalent at UDC or AWDF, amiright?
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