Bullmastiffs

[Ravenbird]

I'm very impressed with the community here - quite a lively and open minded discussion

I'm a die-hard Doberman person, but I love all discussions about any breeds and temperaments & inherited (good & bad) traits. Science nerd I guess. Welcome to the Doberman Chat group. Lots of other breeds owned here & plenty of brags & photos about them, so you can make yourself at home here.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Are you also on Mastiff-Forum, by chance? Probably a long shot, but there's a Doberman owner there that has been considering similar breeds -- figured I'd check if I'm talking to the same person

Either way, I'm very impressed with the community here - quite a lively and open minded discussion. Certainly more active than Mastiff-Forum.

I got my male Bullmastiff puppy a few weeks ago from the same breeder you've been considering -- happy to share my thoughts / limited experience if you're still considering the breed.

Initial impressions -- physically very robust and powerful for a puppy & quite muscular. My pup has a longer more historically accurate / functional muzzle as opposed to the overdone pug look some breeders pedal. Temperamentally seeks company and affection but is also dominant and constantly pushing boundaries + very stubborn.

I emphasize stubbornness because that has been my only real frustration so far, even though I read about it a lot during breed research. I know temperament varies a lot by puppy, but it's far more stubbornness than I encountered working with other hard headed breeds rotties/pitts/boxers. Could be a big adjustment if you are coming from a command drive dog like a Doberman.

I'm excited to see him evolve into a large confident family/home guardian, and feel good about my decision so far

Too cool, yes, I am on that Mastiff forum! Yes, good descriptors for DCF here – lively and open minded. It's a great core group of people here, and that core evolves and grows. I see Jan chimed in above, and I'm glad. She owns the place and keeps the lights on. My family got to spend an afternoon with her a few years ago, and she's real good people!

I bet we have talked over there at the Mastiff forum. Did we direct message? I DM'd with someone who was getting a Lonely Creek BM.

Great insights on your BM pup! Those qualities are some of what I would want, not the least of which is the less brachycephalic snout. Ms. Worley does claim to breed VERY athletic "working guard dogs." (emphasis hers)

DCF is the most friendly, welcoming place I have ever been on the internet. Hopefully you want to share your Bullmastiff journey with us,

 

[HaraldH]

Welcome from Minnesota!

We'd love to see some photos of your boy as he grows.

My coworker has a younger English Mastiff and wow has he grown.

Thank you for the warm welcome! Here are a couple of photos of my boy, Björn, back at ~12 weeks. I'll have to start a new progress thread with some more recent photos, I don't want to cloud up @Oh Little Oji 's.

I'm a die-hard Doberman person, but I love all discussions about any breeds and temperaments & inherited (good & bad) traits. Science nerd I guess. Welcome to the Doberman Chat group. Lots of other breeds owned here & plenty of brags & photos about them, so you can make yourself at home here.

Engineer / Scientist here, haha I think you may be onto something -- have always appreciated learning about the different breeds and peoples' experiences with them for both companionship and working. I think it's fascinating what we as humans have tailored these animals for.

I bet we have talked over there at the Mastiff forum. Did we direct message? I DM'd with someone who was getting a Lonely Creek BM.

Great insights on your BM pup! Those qualities are some of what I would want, not the least of which is the less brachycephalic snout. Ms. Worley does claim to breed VERY athletic "working guard dogs." (emphasis hers)

Yes! Great to run into you again over here. As I was reading through at all the breeds you've been considering in this thread, I thought it was too similar to be a coincidence . My "pack" plan is for 2-3 dogs, but I am waiting till this boy is older (9mo+) and well socialized before adding another pup. I'm excited to see where you land in your choice -- you've been getting some awesome feedback here -- really enjoying the updates

 

[MyBuddy]

are a couple of photos of my boy, Björn, back at ~12

Adorable!!!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Below was copied from a f'book page of a hybrid dog breeder other than the author of the article: I've made contact with three breeders of hybrids now. (Yes, I remember that the word "hybrid" is technically not the right word, as advised a few posts above)
WHAT IS A HYBRID ?
A good read by Midgard Mastiffs
HYBRID VIGOR
Hybrid Vigor is a very useful tool to create healthy individual dogs, to create a healthy breed it has to be combine with serious health and performance based selection. Hybrid vigor can hide negative traits but only testing and selective breeding can eliminate them from a bloodline.
In order understand how hybrid vigor works you first need to understand a little about genetics. A gene is positioned on something called its locus. All genes have two copies – one inherited from the mother and the other from the father. Different combinations of genes produce different results, and some genes are dominant over others. Some loci are dominant over others, and sometimes genes sitting on different loci are needed for certain genes to show themselves.
The next thing you need to know is all “purebred” dogs are inbred to make them ‘breed true’, or produce offspring that look just like their parents- that’s how breeds are created. In an effort to guarantee pointless traits like the angle of a dog’s forehead relative to the angle of its muzzle, or a solid white coat, a dog would be selected who carried these traits and inbred to its own children and siblings to create a population which also carries these traits. Unfortunately, this inbreeding allows potentially negative recessive traits to surface by removing potentially positive dominant traits from the bloodline.
All pure/inbred breeds carry negative recessive traits. That’s really the key to why hybrid vigor works, these negative recessive traits are recessive.
Negative dominant traits show themselves in any dog who has a copy of that gene, and so are easy to bred against. People just don’t breed sick or deformed dogs. Recessive genes “hide” behind dominant ones. So you either need two copies of a recessive gene or it and an even more recessive gene for these negative traits to surface.
For example: Canine Dwarfism is a negative recessive trait. If both the sire and the dam are carriers, that means they each have a copy of the dwarf growth gene and a copy of the normal growth gene on the same locus. Since the dwarf gene is recessive and the normal gene dominant, both dogs are normal size. There is a 50% chance that either dog will pass one gene or the other on any locus. That means in a litter, on average:
25% will get the normal gene from the sire and the dwarf gene from the dam making them carriers as well
25% will get the normal gene from the dam and the dwarf gene from the sire making them carriers as well
25% will get the dwarf gene from both the dam and the sire making them dwarfs
25% will get the normal gene from both the dam and the sire making them healthy
Carrier to Carrier breeding
That means 75% of this litter is unbreedable, and 25% probably won’t live very long. The worst part is, with conditions we don’t have genetic tests for, there is no way to tell the difference between the normal dogs and the carriers. So these problems just get passed on from generation to generation.
Now on to hybrid vigor. Hybrid vigor is another name for the Heterosis effect. Heterosis just means that two genes sitting on a locus are different from one another. If a dog has the black and the brindle gene on its K locus, it shows heterosis. That dog will be black because black is dominant, and will carry for brindle. Some of this dog’s offspring will be black, and some will be brindle. This is not what show breeders want. They want a “good” stud to produce dogs just like himself. In an effort to get a dog who will only make black dogs they resort to inbreeding to get dogs who have two copies of the black gene sitting on the K locus. The problem is while they are destroying genetic diversity in the coat color the same thing is happening on other loci, allowing negative recessive traits to show themselves. This leaves the poor show breeder wondering why the healthy dogs he started with are starting to produce crippled, deformed, sickly, dying dogs.
However, when you cross two different breeds with different problems, it pushes the negative recessive traits back under the dominant genes from the other breed. This is hybrid vigor. This means negative genes for allergies, joint problems, cancer, heart problems, eye problems, etc just “vanish”. This creates a dog with less problems in their health and temperament. Hybrid dogs live longer, go to the vet less, make better mothers, produce more milk, and are more flexible in their training. For more information you can see this study on the effects of inbreeding both positive and negative. http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/index.php...
So don’t listen to the show breeders when they try to propagate hatred for “mutts”, and push the greatness of their inbred dogs.
Having owned and worked with hybrid dogs, I will never own another “purebred” dog unless I intend to cross breed it. All I hear when someone says their dog is a purebred with papers from champion lines, is that their dog is the inbred offspring of beauty pageant winners, and they have proof

 

[Ravenbird]

It's a good article regarding hybrid vigor - which is a term used whether cross-breeding one species or really breeding a hybrid animal such as a mule. I do believe the term came from the fact that mules are incredibly tough critters.

I'll have to give you my 2 cents later, another rushed morning here.

 

[Ravenbird]

Haha, Oji, you know I just love to add my thoughts...

In an effort to guarantee pointless traits like the angle of a dog’s forehead relative to the angle of its muzzle, or a solid white coat, a dog would be selected who carried these traits and inbred to its own children and siblings to create a population which also carries these traits.

True to a point. But once the type is set, I don't think inbreeding is very popular. It's FADS that get breeds in trouble, breeding for for shorter legs in Corgis for instance.

All pure/inbred breeds carry negative recessive traits. That’s really the key to why hybrid vigor works, these negative recessive traits are recessive.
Negative dominant traits show themselves in any dog who has a copy of that gene, and so are easy to bred against. People just don’t breed sick or deformed dogs.

Not all traits that are genetic are visible - DCM for instance - and tests for it are lacking. Plenty of BYB and puppy mills especially DO breed sick or deformed dogs. This is where the author begins implying that any out-cross will be better than any purebred. Not true.

That dog will be black because black is dominant, and will carry for brindle. Some of this dog’s offspring will be black, and some will be brindle. This is not what show breeders want. They want a “good” stud to produce dogs just like himself. In an effort to get a dog who will only make black dogs they resort to inbreeding to get dogs who have two copies of the black gene sitting on the K locus. The problem is while they are destroying genetic diversity in the coat color the same thing is happening on other loci, allowing negative recessive traits to show themselves. This leaves the poor show breeder wondering why the healthy dogs he started with are starting to produce crippled, deformed, sickly, dying dogs.

This statement is a bit exaggerated, but has some truth. Hypothetically, If it was found out that all black Dobermans with the very desirable darker mahogany marks rather than the paler yellowish markings were 10 x more likely to die of DCM, would responsible breeders still push for those markings? Would anyone who had that knowledge want to buy those puppies? It's like once albinos were declared riddled with disease, all the responsible breeders declared they wouldn't produce them. Then there's the handful of BYB's breeding for them on purpose, declaring that they are rare & charge $$$ to unwitting, uninformed buyers. The author doesn't seem to take into account that not all breeders are greeders.

when you cross two different breeds with different problems, it pushes the negative recessive traits back under the dominant genes from the other breed. This is hybrid vigor. This means negative genes for allergies, joint problems, cancer, heart problems, eye problems, etc just “vanish”. This creates a dog with less problems in their health and temperament.

IF you can find two different breeds (but still similar styles such as Mastiff-type) with Zero common problems that would be a miracle. How do you get rid of hip dysplasia if it's a large breed issue? Or cancer or heart problems? I DO agree that out-crossing is a fabulous way to reduce some genetic diseases, but they don't "just vanish". If one is trying to create a better breed - or a host of usable cross-breeds, then they'd still better test for every genetic disease offered, plus OFA the rest on the sires/dams they want to cross, then require puppy owners to do the same so they can take notes of how those puppies turned out as adults.


Basically, no one bad-mouthing or exaggerating wins my opinion of their program. I'd want to know more about what they are doing right and show me proof, rather than just saying across the board that cross breeding makes a better dog. Temperaments are yet another thing that are not visible in the physical dog, so must somehow be predictable. Cross breeding a lap dog with an IGP dog may get a litter of 10 puppies, 5 being lap dogs and 5 being hard drive dogs and none being the desired cross of a good natured pet that would also guard. Genes are like that, until you have done some inbreeding or line breeding enough to make it predictable!

There ya go! My 2 cents worth!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Haha, Oji, you know I just love to add my thoughts...


True to a point. But once the type is set, I don't think inbreeding is very popular. It's FADS that get breeds in trouble, breeding for for shorter legs in Corgis for instance.


Not all traits that are genetic are visible - DCM for instance - and tests for it are lacking. Plenty of BYB and puppy mills especially DO breed sick or deformed dogs. This is where the author begins implying that any out-cross will be better than any purebred. Not true.


This statement is a bit exaggerated, but has some truth. Hypothetically, If it was found out that all black Dobermans with the very desirable darker mahogany marks rather than the paler yellowish markings were 10 x more likely to die of DCM, would responsible breeders still push for those markings? Would anyone who had that knowledge want to buy those puppies? It's like once albinos were declared riddled with disease, all the responsible breeders declared they wouldn't produce them. Then there's the handful of BYB's breeding for them on purpose, declaring that they are rare & charge $$$ to unwitting, uninformed buyers. The author doesn't seem to take into account that not all breeders are greeders.


IF you can find two different breeds (but still similar styles such as Mastiff-type) with Zero common problems that would be a miracle. How do you get rid of hip dysplasia if it's a large breed issue? Or cancer or heart problems? I DO agree that out-crossing is a fabulous way to reduce some genetic diseases, but they don't "just vanish". If one is trying to create a better breed - or a host of usable cross-breeds, then they'd still better test for every genetic disease offered, plus OFA the rest on the sires/dams they want to cross, then require puppy owners to do the same so they can take notes of how those puppies turned out as adults.


Basically, no one bad-mouthing or exaggerating wins my opinion of their program. I'd want to know more about what they are doing right and show me proof, rather than just saying across the board that cross breeding makes a better dog. Temperaments are yet another thing that are not visible in the physical dog, so must somehow be predictable. Cross breeding a lap dog with an IGP dog may get a litter of 10 puppies, 5 being lap dogs and 5 being hard drive dogs and none being the desired cross of a good natured pet that would also guard. Genes are like that, until you have done some inbreeding or line breeding enough to make it predictable!

There ya go! My 2 cents worth!

And I appreciate those two shiny pennies very much! Very good points. My understanding of genetics is quite limited.

I agree that what would be great is to have full health testing of the breeding stock prior to breeding, and to get its joints fully x-rayed when they are old enough. That makes sense regarding having the pup buyers also get the joints tested.

On temperament: Yes, I need to see proof of that. I do know that the other two "hybrid" breeders I've contacted have gotten at least one dog from the author of the article. They look nice, but my knowledge of their temperament is limited. Here is where the internet comes in handy. Not only can one hopefully view videos of dogs produced by a breeder, but testimonials or reviews can sometimes be had. (It's kind of like how products and services are reviewed online so widely these days, and it is a tremendous benefit to the consumer) I hope to find as much of that as possible. Here, yes, is where titling dogs would come in handy as well; however in the realm of Mastiff-type dogs, this is more rare. You might have them shown in confo., but any working is very limited.

Basically, this breeder is anti-purebred and pro-what he is doing. I see that. In my layman's mind, however, it boils down to mixing breeds resulting in the diversifying of the gene pool, which helps with producing non-diseased, or less-diseased dogs. It reminds me of my dad saying back when I was a kid that the way to go was to get a mutt – a lot healthier than those purebreds. That said, I see no shortage of "rescue" dogs, and "doodles" for that matter, that have health problems, and at a young age.

This breeder (talking about Midgard Mastiffs here, but same with the breeder out in WA) speaks my language in what he produces, or strives to: Tall, dogs with good bone and athleticism and working ability that don't drool nearly as much as the overdone, semi-deformed shells-of-what-they-once-were Mastiffs.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I looked at some of the vids of working some of the dogs from the breeding program.

Working Videos

This is Midgard’s Osiris, he is the son of Nyx and Domino. He is almost two in this video and this is his first day of training, he is an awesome starter. This is his second session. Midgard&…

midgardkennels.wordpress.com

 

[Oh Little Oji]

So yeah, it's not that I'm trying to prove a point here or anything like that; but I happened to see this video come up as a suggestion from the 'toob. It's an interview by a bandog breeder (definition of the term is actually explained early on in the vid) and he's interviewing another bandog breeder who, I think, is more prone to using the term working mastiff. This interviewee is who I had a phone call with the other day. I have to tell you that I found him to be down to earth, chill, and someone who actually listens and let me talk. He seems just how he seems in the vid.

I've said it before that I have found dealing with working Dobe breeders to be way easier and more reasonable than dealing with confo. Dobe breeders. I would liken, thus far, dealing with the few "hybrid" or bandog or working mastiff breeders I've talked to to working Dobe breeders – only easier and more casual and less focused on the sort of "Do you deserve to, or are you qualified to, own one of my dogs?" Which translates often to: "Have you titled a dog in dog sports before?" I think David rightly discerned that I have the experience and know-how to own a dog from him.

At any rate, this vid contains a wealth of straight talk about dogs and it really resonates with me. I hope I'm not doing anything problematic by posting a link that, at least indirectly, promotes one or another breeder. If so, let me know.

 

[Ravenbird]

I haven't watched the videos, just not enough time in the day right now. But bottom line is you have to go with what feels best to you. Your ideal dog is out there somewhere, you'll know when you find it. Besides, Oji will probably set some kind of new record for longevity just to keep you looking and changing your mind and sharing your thoughts & frustrations on this thread!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Some kind of crazy stuff with my breed/breeder search:

FYI, I've backed away from the Central Asian Shepherd, even though I got that breeder in MI on the phone and several aspects of the breed potentially fit my needs. I'm concerned about how many people claim you cannot get the breed to accept strangers once it is mature – no matter what training you have provided. It will not listen to your commands to accept a stranger at home, and cannot verbally be called off once it decides to attack. Really?!? I am also concerned that it might bark too much, and not respond to training against that. It is said to be more alert and vocal at night. I've asked if this holds true when the dog goes to bed in the house, and I've gotten mixed answers. Oh, and the shedding, especially the blowing of the coat, looks outrageous.

So, I've talked about the idea of the "hybrid" dogs. There is that breeder out in WA, but I really don't like his greedy seeming jiu jitsu regarding pricing.

I wrote here about the phone call I had with a different hybrid breeder in TX. The call went great and I really like what his dogs (about 16 or so generations deep!) are like. His goals align very very well with my needs. I have subsequently, however, become concerned that his dogs might be too drivey, high-strung and prey driven. I will reveal, though, that this breeder charges $1500 per pup – any pup. Straightforward pricing and a remarkably low price. The guy is just so mellow seeming and doesn't feel like messing with hyping up his dogs on social media and trying to get into higher pricing.

The next option with "hybrid" dogs is a breeder with whom I've texted a few times and who has been nicely communicative. He is new to this, and has a female from the breeder above, but mixes them with LGD (livestock guardian dog) breeds. His stated goals and claims align very closely with my needs, and according to him, his dogs will be less prey driven and somewhat more independent than the dogs of the above breeder, and they will be more biddable than a pure LGD. Sounds great, but of course I would love more proof. This breeder charges $1000 per pup, but says inflation may cause him to raise that.

I would seek to get the hybrid pup cropped in either a very short (have heard it called a "Shepherd's Crop") or a Corso length crop. The hybrid breeder that does not mix in LGDs says he likes a crop that approximates the length of an Akita's ears. With the LGD-added hybrids, I would not attempt one that long, as it would be too much of an unknown; and also several LGD breeds have that very short crop (your Kangals, CASs, Caucasian Shepherds, sometimes Anatolians, etc.)

The other day, my mind returned to the Boerboel. I see a breeder who looks quality, and several of his dogs have a short tail dock. I would require that, as the longer docks look terrible on this waggy breed. Well, just today, I found a Boerboel breeder in my city of residence who has been making online vids since 2016. This breeder also has specimens with short docks. Honestly, he does seem a suspect breeder to be sure, with no health testing to be found; but I contacted him. I figured at least a visit to see his dogs would be helpful to me. Well, he went ahead and told me what he charges: 3500 - 4000 per pup. Sheesh. So here we see one of the things going on in dog breeding. I do not know where people come from who can afford pups at this price point, but some of the currently trending breeds are seeing this overpricing. I know of another Boerboel breeder who charges about that much, and they do full health testing and show their dogs and seem much less sketchy. Still, I am not paying that much money. Nope. (Oh, and that breeder just will not return my communications )

So yeah. The intriguing research continues.

 

[JanS]

I think the cost of a purebred pup has gone up quite a bit in the last couple years but if they do the health testing and other things a reputable breeder does I don't mind paying a price. And that's where the line gets drawn with someone wanting a ton of money with nothing to show for it, except that they threw two purebred dogs together.

 

[Rits]

Unfortunately with covid, prices of everything has dramatically gone up. Vet prices, dog shows, gas, especially dog food. The cost of grain is insane. Our chicken feed alone has seen something like a 40-50% hike in the past two years!! Thus, puppy prices have to go up too. Doberman puppy prices are in that 3k+ range now. Unfortunately, we have a lot of health testing that needs to be done for our breed and then in the breed ring we have a super competitive breed its not unusual to not finish a female until shes 3 years old. A breeder that health tests, shows, and competes puts in a lot of money into their dogs. Not including the price to rear the puppies. The guy that charges that much without health testing or anything else...lol. Just looking to get rich.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

The guy that charges that much without health testing or anything else...lol. Just looking to get rich.

Definitely.

 

[JanS]

A breeder that health tests, shows, and competes puts in a lot of money into their dogs. Not including the price to rear the puppies.

That and our breeder includes cropping, docking, AKC registration and a micro-chip in the price.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I should add, just to keep the story up to date: I got into considering the Black Russian Terrier, and received contact from one breeder. No other would return my communications. This breeder seems quality, and champions their BRTs and health tests. I had a phone call, and then filled out the puppy app. To my surprise, I was near or at the top of their wait list – she said owing to my background in, and dedication to, training. They called me one day asking if I was ready for a pup. I explained that I was not, but I did in that phone call ask about price. $4.5k - $5k. Had to tell them I can't afford that. They referred me to another breeder who is starting out and using her stud. Turns out I could've gotten a BRT pup from this person. $3k. That was reasonable, but again, I'm not ready. This 2nd breeder said that naturally, subsequent breedings will be more expensive to purchase pups from.

I also looked heavily into the Bouvier. I know someone here suggested this breed, and I rejected it based on the fact they say the ideal male is like 26 or 26 1/2 inches in height. I also don't like the woolier coat compared to the BRT. But of course, the Bouv gets cropped ears, and has a short tail dock. Plus and plus! The ears, I figure, will diffuse most assumptions that it's a doodle. I hear over and over the Bouv is a good natural protector. However, I'm concerned that the flatulence reputation is real, and that I've heard a few reports of separation anxiety, and house breaking problems. One person in the group stated that Bouviers take a year or more to house break. What?!? Think about that! That's outrageously unacceptable! That disqualifies any animal as a house pet! A handful of people reported ongoing crate soiling. Oji has given me that, and I never want it again.

I had contact with a Corso breeder in my state. I continue to struggle with overly long tail docks, and the fact that it varies so much! People seem to just be blind to this! The breed is so waggy that it just is terrible looking. What's more, the dogs from this breeder – some look great, some are overly jowly and some just look sort of dumb in expression. Yeah, you get those short cropped ears, and a supposedly good natural guardian, but I just don't know. There's also the skyrocketing popularity of this breed – a big minus. I have had good text contact with another Corso breeder up near the top of the state, and they say they share my dislike of long docks. I got a pic of at least one pup from a recent breeding and I have my doubts about the tail length. What's more, no health testing, and while the price is somewhat lower than the going rate, it's a risk on the health front. Also, you've got some excessive jowliness and a lot of flat paws – just looking like subpar structure.

At the moment, crazy as it seems, I am back onto the Bullmastiff. I'm looking at ones that are not too brachycephalic and I'd really like to have a dark brindle one, however, when I see a nice rich Red one, it's very good looking, so I'm very torn on that. The Red color, unfortunately, seems rare.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I think we may be starting to see the effects of the popularity of the Cane Corso filtering down. Of course, the Pit mix is overwhelmingly what is jamming the local shelter to over capacity; but I have seen one brought to my attention in the shelter (I sought to meet the dog via its foster person, but I then found out it doesn't work that way – I have to fill out an application, and would have to have Oji evaluated by their trainer for compatibility).

I had one brought to my attention that was on a flyer in the supermarket for free. I actually called the woman, who it turns out, is an elderly but very nice and capable woman but just needed to unload her Corso after having her for like 7 years ?! When I found out the dog was not spayed, I had to decline after thinking about it for a day.

Today, I saw a post about a dog the poster identified as a Bullmastiff, but was pretty clearly a Corso complete with short cropped ears. The dog had been struck by a driver and the kind man tried to catch it, but was unsuccessful and it somehow wound up dead and he snapped a pic of it and posted it, trying to find its owner.

Today my daughter told me that the poorly behaved boy that unfortunately sits next to her in class was talking about Cane Corsos (which he pronounces, of course, Cãne Corso.)

I'm feeling less and less inclined to consider the breed as our next dog. The popularity is creeping up on the Doberman in terms of AKC registrations, and that is just the registered ones. What's more, I saw a post in a Corso group today of a woman with slobber marks on her lap and the caption was "I give up." The Corso is said to slobber less than the Bullmastiff and other mastiff breeds, but I think that if you have a jowly one it's probably going to slobber about as much. I'm not sure though.

 

[Ravenbird]

One of these days you're just going to announce that the search is over and show us photos of your new pup!

 

[Rits]

I predict you will just come back to the doberman