Bullmastiffs

[Kaiser2016]

You may laugh, but from time to time my very active thinking about which breed for our next dog comes back to...

Doberman!

I did laugh! The last time I checked this thread, I was under the impression that you really were ready to move on, which surprised me, because I thought you would have come back to the Doberman a lot sooner. LOL, better late than never. Re the whining, I do wonder if you could get that somewhat under control. I know Ddski5 curbed the whining by using an e-collar. So even if it has become part of breed characteristics as Raven mentioned, the e-collar could be a game changer? I'd also take stock of what training methods I would change for this next pup. Somewhere along the way, I'm sure we did something to encourage the whining like responding to it instead of ignoring it. Sigh. When they say training never ends, it's really for the humans

 

[Ravenbird]

I've never had a Dobe that whined. My current girl has very high ball, stick and squirrel drive but has a great off switch.

Sounds like my 1992 model. Perfect! May I ask what her pedigree looks like? You don't have to list names, just point toward countries or working/show lines.

I realize they don't do anything with their Dobes in terms of showing or working. I guess that as long as they are breeding healthy dogs of sound and proper temperament

As @Rits mentioned, the titles are more proof that the dogs have proper temperament and are biddable and can handle stress. All of those things are important to you as you mention in many of your posts. Also with your wife wanting (needing?) a little more sanity with the next dog, and your own peace of mind regarding your young girls... that's why we keep bringing up lack of titles, they back up what the puppies should be able to do.

Also, I too was really frustrated by the lack of response from breeders when I was on the puppy hunt. Looking back, the ones who didn't respond were the most coveted in the field and the fastest response was from ones like you just found - first glance looks good, look deeper and all they do is breed, nothing else. So they aren't busy with shows or trials or training, they are at home with a new whelp every month or two and that's their income so yes, they want every puppy to have a home lined up asap. The ones with waiting lists don't have these worries. However, I would have still really really appreciated a "Thank you for your inquiry, our current/future litters are all spoken for". I actually did get one or two of those, but not enough to ease the frustration with the rest. I do understand you pain on that note.

I think after being used to a Dobermans intelligence you might be a little disappointed with other breeds, even though there are many nice ones.

^^^ This ^^^ Once you get use to the eye contact, the quickness, the smarts, even the defiant antics - all stemming from an Einstein brain, I could not go with any breed that doesn't have this.

I can't remember why you didn't consider a Rottie - no herding breeds?

 

[CRDobe]

Ravenbird - I live in Costa Rica, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a breeder that does the testing etc as one in the US. My girl's pedigree wasn't available ( also normal for here) but I was told that sire is from Lex Luther lines (as are most of the Dobes here) and dam was Euro show lines.
For me she has the perfect temperament, was a fairly easy pup to raise and train, despite the Dober teens, and at almost 8 yrs continues to be the perfect dog for me.

I also wondered why a Rottie wasn't on the list.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I drew this when I was in my 20s and, in some ways, a bit immature. I am a lot more open to Rotts than I ever have been. One thing that has always put me off the breed is its popularity, and how common it is among a certain set of people. I would say I am open to the breed. One thing I wonder about is what the specimens are like that have that sort of emphasized forehead, and somewhat domed head look (I think maybe a Euro look?) Some of that look appears tough and intimidating and handsome, but too much is not great looking.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I happened upon this pic of what is, to me, an extreme example of that head type in a Rottweiler I tried to describe above:

photo credit kings rottweilers


Cringeworthy. To my eye, a little touch of this head style is a nice look, but to this extreme, it just can't be good.

 

[Ravenbird]

That Rottie is a travesty to the breed. Absolutely sick. Looks like a giant Pug.

I've known a few Rottweilers personally - good working dogs that did some SchH training, but again, I'm older and these dogs were back in the 1980's through early 2000. The gal that had them drove a little Ford Fiesta and if someone walked up to that car you could see the car rocking back and forth with the dog biting at the window from inside. They were insanely good workers, but so freaking chill if nothing was happening. She always joked they'd kill an intruder and be asleep by the time the coroner got there.

Yeah, the show-bred Rotts wouldn't be worth anything. Especially now that they've lost their snouts. But some good working lines are still out there. One is in the AWDF Nationals this weekend. We'll see how he does.

Also you like big, and these dogs aren't much taller than a Doberman, just chunkier so they do present as a bigger dog.

My girl's pedigree wasn't available ( also normal for here) but I was told that sire is from Lex Luther lines (as are most of the Dobes here) and dam was Euro show lines.
For me she has the perfect temperament, was a fairly easy pup to raise and train, despite the Dober teens, and at almost 8 yrs continues to be the perfect dog for me.

Thanks for that info - Yeah, Lex was show line South America? Your girl sounds awesome, sounds like my '92 girl.

 

[Ravenbird]

Here's what a Rottweiler is supposed to look like.

Luca vom Thrudvangar | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog

You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Luca vom Thrudvangar at working-dog.

en.working-dog.com

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I've known a few Rottweilers personally - good working dogs that did some SchH training, but again, I'm older and these dogs were back in the 1980's through early 2000. The gal that had them drove a little Ford Fiesta and if someone walked up to that car you could see the car rocking back and forth with the dog biting at the window from inside. They were insanely good workers, but so freaking chill if nothing was happening. She always joked they'd kill an intruder and be asleep by the time the coroner got there.

Yeah, the show-bred Rotts wouldn't be worth anything. Especially now that they've lost their snouts. But some good working lines are still out there. One is in the AWDF Nationals this weekend. We'll see how he does.

Also you like big, and these dogs aren't much taller than a Doberman, just chunkier so they do present as a bigger dog.

I do like big. One thing I am concerned about is the Rott standard actually calls for shorter than the Dobe. I didn't so much used to be in the past, but I have come to really want height in a dog. The Rott standard calls for 24 - 27 inches, but yes, like 95 - 130 lbs. or something like that, so definitely more massive.

I'm reminded of someone I knew back in Tucson. He was wheelchair-bound and his service dog (I don't know how official, but she truly was his service dog and very beloved companion) was a female Rottweiler. Very well trained and behaved.

One thing I've always found in Rotts is a large amount of growly vocalizing. It's intimidating if you don't know them.

I knew someone in Maryland with a very tall Rott mix – looked close to a Rott, but evidently not pure.

I knew someone in Minnesota with a very large, over-height Rottweiler named Brandon. He was a big part of the dog park scene, and frequently steeped on people's feet.

For a time, I lived in a place where I would walk my first Doberman down an alley sometimes. In a backyard behind a chain link fence were two Rotts. I proudly walked my big 96 lb. Dobe past, thinking (but really kind of knowing I was incorrect) that as those Rotts were going crazy yanking on the fence with their teeth that my boy could defend himself if they got loose.

Yes, I have always seen Rotts present a rather intense believable ferocity.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Well, I contacted that Doberman breeder that is located only about 20 mile or so from here. Their website said one of the main ways to contact them was via f'bk private message. I briefly intro'd myself and asked about setting up a time to visit. They got back to me several hours to a day later, simply saying "You can visit by appointment." I replied "Of course by appointment!" Anyway, I asked about a specific weekend and they never replied. Yes, they had two litters being born that weekend, so I understand I guess, and I'm being charitable by chalking it up to they forgot to reply. I think really they don't like hassling with new potential customers visiting, and instead want to rest on the laurel of, well, recently being voted "Best Doberman Breeder In Ohio." Whatevs.

So I had communicated in months past with a guy on the west coast who breeds hybrids of mastiffs. Recently, he suggested I check out this guy in WA who also deals in that basic type of hybrid breeding. I had watched couple vids from the guy before, but had not given him serious consideration. Well, now I am.

Spoiler alert: Most of you will probably be against this guy and what he does. After all, he is intentionally mixing purebreds – breeding and selling "mutts". We can talk about that, and why that practice, when done to produce good working dogs and working breeds who really fill needs does not bother me.

Another aspect that will turn some of you off is that he does most definitely sell dogs he is done with in his program. He is highly practical, rather unemotional and pragmatic about it. This doesn't bother me either, as long as he tries to make sure they go to good homes. I will say, however, that I don't know how his kids deal with it. I assume they are just accustomed to it. I watched one vid of a Kangal hybrid, and he was showing what a great temperament the big tower of a dog had by telling his kids to go ahead and do things the dog doesn't like (they tried to ride him, they messed around with him) (dog showed zero reactivity) but he said the dog was going to be sold. Anyway...

This guy speaks my language on several key aspects of dogs and he places value in qualities that I do as well. It's almost uncanny: He (while not being obsessed with bigger-is-better) likes tall dogs with good bone, good protective qualities, biddability, low prey drive (in many cases), low independence (in some cases), short coats (some longer), talks about drool amount. I could go on about less tangible things as well.

So this breeding practice is different from someone producing their new breed (like, say, the Canis Panther, or the North American Mastiff, or even the American Mastiff) and sticking with it. I worry about inbreeding in those cases. No, this guy is blending lots of new blood. So I really am not too bothered by the fact he doesn't apparently health test. The gene pool is so diverse. He does offer a five (5) year guarantee against any genetic problem. Of course, these guarantees are only so good, because who wants to just get a replacement dog for the dog they've bonded with?

I don't know just what it would be like to work with this man. He did return my email in which I asked his preferred method of communication. So per his preference a phone call will be had.

I don't know what kind of prices he is used to getting. I do know he has a pricing thing where buyers can up their offer in order to be bumped higher up on the pick list. This is one of the things that initially got me to move on from him in the past. It just seemed confusing and like a bidding war situation. But I see now that it just has to do with pick order.

A lot of the dogs I see in his plentiful collection of videos, I would find acceptable dogs for my family – after a nice short ear crop.

Olympicdogs.net - Current Sires

Click a dogs name to go to its dedicated page. Some will be "on the Yard" Others may be locally accessible for breedings. And some we will be able to get semen from via mail.

www.olympicdogs.net

 

[MyBuddy]

You've never had a Dobe that whined?

You asking that made me think. I even had to ask my husband. Both of us cannot remember our first Doberman whining. (1995-2005) I know that Buddy did but usually stopped when corrected. Now, it might be too far away and we just don't remember. Maybe we were just a more active family at that time. The kids were still around as teens/young adults. But it's interesting to think that Dobermans in the past didn't whine. I guess that's a part of pussification of America! LOL

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I was pleased to happen upon this video from the above hybrid dog breeder that I'm looking at. It lays out plainly what he does – the three basic types (I don't know yet whether he calls them "breeds" but I don't think so; nor do I think they are finalized).

Well, I know they weren't finalized as of the making of the following video, as he says he is going to move from using 6% Kangal to using 3% Kangal, with the aim of reducing what he calls "independence." He defines independence as, well, what is found in livestock guarding dogs (LGDs) which happens to be what a Central Asian Shepherd is, and you know I was considering that breed. This is the quality of basically disobeying you often, as the dog is bred/developed to make decisions independently and on its own. (The Kangal is also an LGD).

So he has the Olympic Road Dog (probably my choice), the Olympic Farm/Ranch Dog and plans to develop the "Silencer," which is a dog that rarely barks, but will protect. That one sounds very appealing, actually!

This lack of barking is quite in line with my needs, and is just one of many things that make me go: Dude, this is uncanny how much this guy aligns with me.

See the 7:00 mark for his description of his "trinity" of dog types.

We will see how long this breeder remains a candidate.

 

[Ravenbird]

I check out this guy in WA who also deals in that basic type of hybrid breeding.

Being a stickler for proper terminology, and not to criticize but to educate those who don't know: "Hybrid" is being tossed around in use for crossing dog breeds (doodles etc) and is scientifically incorrect. Hybrid is the result of crossing of two species. A mule is the result of a male donkey and a female horse. A coy dog is the result of a coyote & a domestic dog. And there's a Liger, a cross between a lion & tiger. So, breeding different types of domestic dogs isn't truly hybrid breeding. They are just mixed breed dogs. Sorry, I truly am just wanting to educate rather than critique.

The photos do show nice athletic looking dogs who seem well adapted to their outdoor life & humans. He does seem dedicated to trying to develop a certain type of dog with certain goals in mind. I definitely don't mind mixing breeds to achieve better health especially when there is a goal in mind for the end result. Lurchers are fantastic crossbred dogs: Sighthounds x Shepherd or Terrier breeds make for tenacious hunters.

So this breeding practice is different from someone producing their new breed (like, say, the Canis Panther, or the North American Mastiff, or even the American Mastiff) and sticking with it. I worry about inbreeding in those cases. No, this guy is blending lots of new blood. So I really am not too bothered by the fact he doesn't apparently health test. The gene pool is so diverse.

^^^ This can be a double-edged sword.^^^ Type & predictability is made by inbreeding or line breeding. You begin to see patterns in looks & personality, that's how breeds are made.
"this guy is blending lots of new blood" - and glancing at his website, blending and mixing and changing quite often. And selling puppies to homes, I'm presuming either for livestock guardians or homes like yours. Where's the feedback? How does he know what's successful? How does he decide what cross would be good for your situation rather than a 100 acre sheep ranch?

I would be concerned about the outdoor kennels & breeding might lead to dogs that don't adapt to an indoor home life. These are some rugged dogs in spirit but I'm not familiar with them, so I'm not so sure how that works, just my thoughts. They do seem fine with humans & kids, but not being raised inside with TV's and vacuums at a crucial puppy periods would give me a little pause.

Just my thoughts & rambling conversation. I admire you for following your heart to find the perfect dog for you & your family. An old Southern saying that you might find describes your search quite well:
"You can't get all your possums up one tree".

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Being a stickler for proper terminology, and not to criticize but to educate those who don't know: "Hybrid" is being tossed around in use for crossing dog breeds (doodles etc) and is scientifically incorrect. Hybrid is the result of crossing of two species. A mule is the result of a male donkey and a female horse. A coy dog is the result of a coyote & a domestic dog. And there's a Liger, a cross between a lion & tiger. So, breeding different types of domestic dogs isn't truly hybrid breeding. They are just mixed breed dogs. Sorry, I truly am just wanting to educate rather than critique.

The photos do show nice athletic looking dogs who seem well adapted to their outdoor life & humans. He does seem dedicated to trying to develop a certain type of dog with certain goals in mind. I definitely don't mind mixing breeds to achieve better health especially when there is a goal in mind for the end result. Lurchers are fantastic crossbred dogs: Sighthounds x Shepherd or Terrier breeds make for tenacious hunters.

^^^ This can be a double-edged sword.^^^ Type & predictability is made by inbreeding or line breeding. You begin to see patterns in looks & personality, that's how breeds are made.
"this guy is blending lots of new blood" - and glancing at his website, blending and mixing and changing quite often. And selling puppies to homes, I'm presuming either for livestock guardians or homes like yours. Where's the feedback? How does he know what's successful? How does he decide what cross would be good for your situation rather than a 100 acre sheep ranch?

I would be concerned about the outdoor kennels & breeding might lead to dogs that don't adapt to an indoor home life. These are some rugged dogs in spirit but I'm not familiar with them, so I'm not so sure how that works, just my thoughts. They do seem fine with humans & kids, but not being raised inside with TV's and vacuums at a crucial puppy periods would give me a little pause.

Just my thoughts & rambling conversation. I admire you for following your heart to find the perfect dog for you & your family. An old Southern saying that you might find describes your search quite well:
"You can't get all your possums up one tree".

Great thoughts, and I don't feel criticized at all. I do like to have the correct words for things!

Yes, you sort of beat me to it with the feedback aspect. Where I am at with this breeder now is: Show me some proof of what these dogs are like and what they can do. I do see what they are like, as you said, on his big rural property; but I would love to see some examples of them protecting home and person. He claims they are capable and will do so. I'd at least like to see examples of them acting courageously in a defensive mode (not barking behind a fence). So yes, where is some proof? He says he needs to get something going where there are testimonials made available.

On your rural vs. urban/home point: The Kangal mixes are going to be those suited better to farm guarding. The "Road Dogs" are going to be better suited (based on their breeds) for a home life. They are made up of a lot of Dane, Boerboel, Neo Mastiff. But here again, I'd like to see some proof and evidence of them in a city and in-home setting. He says the Road Dogs will "do what you say" or "do whatever you want" or however he phrases it. Says they are easy keepers and low independence. They sound trainable and biddable.

Actually, I run into the rural vs. urban thing with most breeders. Even though we know very well that Dobes are great house, and even apartment, dogs, almost all breeders have them on their large properties. It's necessitated, really, as you can't have and breed many dogs in a rural/neighborhood setting. So I have wondered if breeders just do not notice livability problems in their dogs because they have all that land and space and facilities like outbuiltings and so forth. I have even talked about it on here with Jan, MyBuddy and some others – how their life is so different from mine. Oh how I wish I could just let Oji out in a large yard with neighbors far away and let him spend a good amount of the day out there, and not boxed up with me in the house. It would be better for both of us! When I leave, he must be crated in the unfinished basement. As it is, I can't even have him in the backyard and I go use the bathroom, much less take a shower. He will be barking pretty much nonstop. I would love to just kick him out back when his whining is driving me near insane.

 

[Ravenbird]

Oh how I wish I could just let Oji out in a large yard with neighbors far away and let him spend a good amount of the day out there, and not boxed up with me in the house. It would be better for both of us! When I leave, he must be crated in the unfinished basement. As it is, I can't even have him in the backyard and I go use the bathroom, much less take a shower. He will be barking pretty much nonstop. I would love to just kick him out back when his whining is driving me near insane.

If I'm in the house and Asha is outside, she will stand at the door and whine or bark to come back in, usually within 10 or 15 minutes of letting her out to go potty. Sometimes she will lay out in the sun for a while, but mostly she just doesn't want to be outside if I'm inside. We have a small fenced in back yard and small fenced in front yard and about 7 acres fenced around all that. I sometimes close the gates to the front or back, leaving her in the 7 acres and she will just stand at the chainlink gate to get to the house where I am. She never goes anywhere if I'm not out there with her. If I'm outside doing chores, she will run circles around me, play, amuse herself with sticks etc. and loves being out in the big acres. Maybe if there are dogs to hang out with, they would be OK with staying outside without a human. Although we have two dogs, they aren't ever together when unsupervised, so they don't ever go out together while we're in the house. Kenneled dogs at breeders facilities are nothing like personal dogs, IMO. Which brings full circle how you can't know how outdoor, free-roaming, big acre type raising of puppies will turn out in a city atmosphere. Hopefully that breeder can send you links / photos or testimonials of his puppies in a similar lifestyle that you have.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Good point. While Oji does like to roam around the yard some, he does come back up to the back porch/small deck and dwell there. He does not do much of the staring and begging to get back in – that is, unless the weather is too cold.

This brings me to what I was gonna' say, which is when he is whining particularly badly and I put him on the back deck, he stands there and whines at the glass door and I can hear it almost as much.

Below is a vid that the "hybrid" breeder has as his main vid when you go to his u-toob channel. I like this dog as an example of what one might look like if given a short crop. Here, he shows how the dog, with no training, helps to catch a wily goat. The breeder guy touts the dog's biddability and that he knows it will not kill the goat and that he will be able to call it off from being too aggressive with it.

Now, bear in mind that belowd is not the mix of breeds that I would get. The dog in this vid is 50% Boerboel, 25% Dogo Argentino (high prey drive game hunter breed, as you probably know), and 25% Dane.

I fully realize that this might just be the best example from its litter and it's technically possible that every other dog in the litter is nowhere near as biddable. I tell ya' though, I don't have any reason to suspect that the dogs this guy produces are especially prone to having poor temperaments. That is, unless there is something about mixing breeds that can somehow produce bad temperaments by virtue of the mix. I doubt that's a thing.

But yes, the point is not lost on me that titling dogs does help to prove that (at least the show/work quality dogs from the litters) have what it takes to meet a certain standard of appearance or work.

I'm reminded here, as I went back to looking at a particular Bullmastiff breeder last night, that she (like so many breeders) lives a rural lifestyle and the dogs are only taken "into town" kind of rarely. Of course, we are talking a relatively docile breed there.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

By the way, I will clarify on the Bullmastiff breeder that she also shows her dogs in AKC conformation and has success in putting Chs on many of them. So, they are not just living on the farm and not doing anything. That said, I have seen multiple dogs show what is (hopefully just) a lack of socialization and desensitization – not just flinching when an automatic door opens several feet away, but in fact being shy at the approach of strangers

 

[HaraldH]

By the way, I will clarify on the Bullmastiff breeder that she also shows her dogs in AKC conformation and has success in putting Chs on many of them. So, they are not just living on the farm and not doing anything. That said, I have seen multiple dogs show what is (hopefully just) a lack of socialization and desensitization – not just flinching when an automatic door opens several feet away, but in fact being shy at the approach of strangers

Are you talking about Lonely Creek? This thread was an interesting read -- I was researching Bullmastiffs and came across it after googling forum discussions.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Are you talking about Lonely Creek? This thread was an interesting read -- I was researching Bullmastiffs and came across it after googling forum discussions.

You've found a heck of a thread It's entitled Bullmastiffs, and started out talking about them, but has taken many twists and turns. It's essentially become my diary of progress as I continue to try to decide on my next breed, and breeder.

Yes, that is the breeder I was referring to. Are you thinking of getting a Bullmastiff?

 

[HaraldH]

You've found a heck of a thread It's entitled Bullmastiffs, and started out talking about them, but has taken many twists and turns. It's essentially become my diary of progress as I continue to try to decide on my next breed, and breeder.

Yes, that is the breeder I was referring to. Are you thinking of getting a Bullmastiff?

Are you also on Mastiff-Forum, by chance? Probably a long shot, but there's a Doberman owner there that has been considering similar breeds -- figured I'd check if I'm talking to the same person

Either way, I'm very impressed with the community here - quite a lively and open minded discussion. Certainly more active than Mastiff-Forum.

I got my male Bullmastiff puppy a few weeks ago from the same breeder you've been considering -- happy to share my thoughts / limited experience if you're still considering the breed.

Initial impressions -- physically very robust and powerful for a puppy & quite muscular. My pup has a longer more historically accurate / functional muzzle as opposed to the overdone pug look some breeders pedal. Temperamentally seeks company and affection but is also dominant and constantly pushing boundaries + very stubborn.

I emphasize stubbornness because that has been my only real frustration so far, even though I read about it a lot during breed research. I know temperament varies a lot by puppy, but it's far more stubbornness than I encountered working with other hard headed breeds rotties/pitts/boxers. Could be a big adjustment if you are coming from a command drive dog like a Doberman.

I'm excited to see him evolve into a large confident family/home guardian, and feel good about my decision so far

 

[JanS]

Either way, I'm very impressed with the community here - quite a lively and open minded discussion. Certainly more active than Mastiff-Forum.

I got my male Bullmastiff puppy a few weeks ago from the same breeder you've been considering -- happy to share my thoughts / limited experience if you're still considering the breed.

Welcome from Minnesota!

We'd love to see some photos of your boy as he grows.

My coworker has a younger English Mastiff and wow has he grown.