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Von Willebrand's Disease

Has angel already come into heat before? I wonder if that makes a difference? Tasha is still a baby (5 months) so she has not come into heat yet and as I understand it she doesn't necessarily have to have problems if she stays intact. Take a rest for tonight maybe we can come up with some answers - Prayer -

No she hasn't had a heat yet and as far as the VW goes, she may bleed heavier but she shouldn't suffer a major blood loss. My vet said that since she hasn't heated yet, we cant know for sure so for her first heat I am to keep a diaper on her to monitor her bleed and just watch her gums and make sure they are always pink. But he is sure there is no issue. I have no choice to hold off on the spay till after the holidays. Aside from the cost (I can do pmts), we are going away for the holidays to see my mom and I just wont be able to sleep with her being watched out at the puppy rescue ranch while healing - given the circumstances.

We will git'r done - just in the new year and after the first heat... whats $60 more on a $2600 bill LOL!
 
Did they say why it was going to be so expensive? I would ask for an itemized estimate. I don't think that they are trying to ripe you off or anything, but that seems really high to me. I work as a vet tech so I am just being curious. I'm very sorry to hear about your girl, but good for you on following your gut.
 
No she hasn't had a heat yet and as far as the VW goes, she may bleed heavier but she shouldn't suffer a major blood loss. My vet said that since she hasn't heated yet, we cant know for sure so for her first heat I am to keep a diaper on her to monitor her bleed and just watch her gums and make sure they are always pink. But he is sure there is no issue. I have no choice to hold off on the spay till after the holidays. Aside from the cost (I can do pmts), we are going away for the holidays to see my mom and I just wont be able to sleep with her being watched out at the puppy rescue ranch while healing - given the circumstances.

We will git'r done - just in the new year and after the first heat... whats $60 more on a $2600 bill LOL!
:D It's just money right! I wouldn't do anything till all the hustle and bustle from the holidays are over either. If Tasha hadn't had the bleeding episodes we would have probably not even known right away. You might look into care credit. I took it out when we first got Tasha. It has an interest free period and you can use it for yourself or your pet. It is good to have on hand if there is an emergency, of course all we have had is emergencies :pullhair:
 
Okay, anybody on here that has a doberman from a shelter, BYB , I applaude you and you have come to the right place. I'm sorry if I come off too direct and I'll try to work on that. I have passion for the breed, it's the BYB that I'm upset about. If there is someone that is reading this and wondering where to get a puppy from I would tell them a registered breeder that health tests. I'm in no way knocking anyone here now that has a puppy from these circumstances.

I have had this breed for over twenty five years and I have seen it all! I have helped to rescue puppies and dogs under horrible circumstances, with tragic consequences.

There is a local ad now in my area selling puppies for 1000 dollars. I emailed them and asked about health testing and the sire and dam. They responded that it's a brother and sister that have had the puppies and they think the parents have had their shots! This went right over their heads!

There is so many health concerns and as Ataro brought up my health results on a bitch I plan to breed. I invested hundreds of hours looking at Doberman websites than finally chose a breeder. I flew down to Calf and brought her home as a 12 week old puppy. I started to work with her, then travelled and showed her and got her championship. Then I started the health testing. VW, thyroid, cardio, halter monitoring, OFA Hips, OfA Elbows, liver testing, color mutation testing, eye testing, Temperament testing. After that I spent hours looking and studying pedigrees for a good stud dog with excellent health testing that would work well with combining pedigrees.
I'm hoping for healthy puppies but you never know what will happen down the road but at least I tried to do the best for the litter. So that's why I'm passionate and get upset about BYB.
I see and hear about the results of SOME puppies from BYB. Please forgive me if I come off too direct. I'm going to try to work at that.

Ataro: hips are one of many things to consider and I have considered that by breeding to an OFA exellent dog. It's a little more complicated than that.
 
MicheleM I did not mean to infer that hips were the most important things to test for by any means, I was just reflecting about how ironic that a year and a half ago I was so worried about it and ended up having to put down my pup with tumours and kidney failure, despite her excellent hips.
 
Back to getting dobermans from health tested registered breeders. I have and I have over the years had almost every Doberman health problem in my dogs. You try to do the best, get a puppy from the best breeders and you can still run into problems. I have had wobblers in a beautiful girl and we dealth with it and Belle lived till she was ten. I have idiopathic head tremours and seizures in my boy and his breeder is outstanding and I wouldn't trade Aslan for the world. I have a deaf Doberman who I've probably learned more from then any other Doberman in my life. Deafness in dobermans is also a genetic disease in this breed and they have discovered the gene marker and hopefully there will be a genetic test soon available.

So getting dobermans from reputable breeders isn't a guarantee but I would much rather see someone go to them before a BYB.
Ataro I know the pain you had, I've been there, there just is so many health issues and it's like a giant jig saw puzzle. We all love this breed and my hope is that all dobermans grow up healthy and have wonderful lives with people that love them.
 
Did they say why it was going to be so expensive? I would ask for an itemized estimate. I don't think that they are trying to ripe you off or anything, but that seems really high to me. I work as a vet tech so I am just being curious. I'm very sorry to hear about your girl, but good for you on following your gut.

My vets assistant did rattle of a list but even she was shocked so i'm going to contact the hospital directly in the morning because I find that a but high as well!

Thanks to everyone for the support! It really is appreciated!
 
I may be asking for it by this comment but here goes: while many BYB's are bad and should be put out of business, not all of them are bad and there are some that, while their primary motivation is to make a profit, they breed well-tempered, healthy dogs. While I don't agree with BYB's in principle I would rather see a BYB that takes proper care of their animals and breeds health-tested and health, even-tempered animals than the rampant puppy mill BYB's with 100 dogs in a tiny kennel or those who don't give a rats you-know-what about the health of the animal, or whether or not they're well-suited to prospective owners.

Quee this is part of what is so confusing First a person who health test and temperament test is not a BYB - BYB for the most part don't even know any of that stuff exist let alone test for it. A puppy mill is not a BYB - a puppy mill has large # of different breeds and sells primarily to brokers who take them to pet stores.

JQP is confused enough on these issue and that is how ALL breeders got lumped into the bad catagory.

If someone is charging 2600 for a spay I would contact the attorney General - No kidding. A spay is normally 3 to 500.00 depending on what area you live in. I would ask for an itimezied list of exactly what they are doing??? Using gold plaited scaples, and silver sutchers???? That is how people get ripped off JMHO - going overboard. Spay is one of the most frequent surgeries done - why won't your vet do it???

You can comne here and my vet will do ti for less than $350 = you can have a vacation and visit KC and not spend that much money. That is highway robbery.

If the trend continues in the next 10 years people won't be able to afford pets.
 
If someone is charging 2600 for a spay I would contact the attorney General - No kidding. A spay is normally 3 to 500.00 depending on what area you live in. I would ask for an itimezied list of exactly what they are doing??? Using gold plaited scaples, and silver sutchers???? That is how people get ripped off JMHO - going overboard. Spay is one of the most frequent surgeries done - why won't your vet do it???

A few things to understand about that spay quote.
1.) IF this was a routine spay with NO complications - It would have only cost $375 at my vet
2.) The procedure has to be done at the "Animal hospital" which automatically raises the cost and because she has tested positive for VW - the give her a series of test before the surgery, the cost of the plasma it's self, the fee should the transfusion be needed (6 years ago, the transfusion alone for my Pit Bull was $1600.00). Basically, they give a "worst case" quote so you are prepared. They do offer payment plans though, and we can get pretty good pet insurance up here as well.
3.) Keep in mind that, although I am American, I live in Canada and our pricing and tax tables are VERY different from US. Some things are less, some are more. When ever the hospital is involved the dang fee ALWAYS goes up
 
Spay is one of the most frequent surgeries done - why won't your vet do it???

He cant do it because he is a clinic and not equipped for transfusions if she bleeds out. In Ottawa Ontario, Canada where I live, Only Alta Visa Animal hospital is equipped
 
He cant do it because he is a clinic and not equipped for transfusions if she bleeds out. In Ottawa Ontario, Canada where I live, Only Alta Visa Animal hospital is equipped
I didn't realize that you were going to that kind of practice. Now I understand the cost. Good Luck and keep us posted.
 
If it were me I would want to know the percentage of actually by DNA test dogs that have ever had to have a transfusion of this magnitute, What percentage even had a bleeding incident, what percentage actually died - numbers tell you a lot. What percentage would benefit from the Vitamin K shot that jsut test low on the day of surgery.

I tried to post some questions yesterday based on the links Tasha's mom posted but was having major computer problems so I will go back and redo it today.
 
If it were me I would want to know the percentage of actually by DNA test dogs that have ever had to have a transfusion of this magnitute, What percentage even had a bleeding incident, what percentage actually died - numbers tell you a lot. What percentage would benefit from the Vitamin K shot that jsut test low on the day of surgery.

I tried to post some questions yesterday based on the links Tasha's mom posted but was having major computer problems so I will go back and redo it today.
I don't know where they have these stats. I have looked but can't find any that I am really satisfied with that are clinical and not just opinion.

Tash didn't get a vitamin K shot. I did give her Vitamin K the week before the surgery along with a homeopathic drug. My doc rolled his eyes at the Homeopathic but one of Tasha's team swears by it so he agreed that it couldn't possibly hurt so I gave it to her as well and she in fact did not bleed during the surgery. She did have the two transfusions one before and one after. She did not bleed for several days but on Thanksgiving day she lost a tooth and blood everywhere for about 30 minutes so the bleed was back on :( -

I agree numbers are the true indicator. I will research more locally since we are plagued by this right now, maybe I can find some info.
 
von Willebrand's Disease | AKC Canine Health Foundation

http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Dog-Health-Center/Heart-and-Blood-Disorders/Von-Willebrand-Disease.as


Cotton Ball Remedy helps canine pals-Real Life Experiences

Von Willebrand's Disease

From the first article: <quote>It is very inaccurate as far as predicitng actual Vwd status which can be determined by DNA test. It only tells you the clotting factor and there a several things that can affect clotting factor other than Vwd.<quote>

Article two I got a 404 file not found.

Article three - <quote>It is also one reason Dobermans have such a lower survival rate of diseases such as Parvovirus, which attacks the gastro-intestinal tract and causes bleeding<quote>It is generally thought this is true but there are not studies that prove it. There have also been a combinations of factors that are believed to be affected by Vwd but not necessarily proven. Hypothyrodism for one which the article does go on to address.

Dogs with von Willebrand's disease and those who are carriers should not be used for breeding.
Even Vet gene states you can't eliminate carriers or affectes from the gene pool without danger of destroying it by magnifying and concentrating other issues we really dont' want. But if you breed selective to clears you can eliminate it . I know I did. But I would breed an affected to a clear with no concern what so ever.
<Quote>It is also one reason Dobermans have such a lower survival rate of diseases such as Parvovirus, which attacks the gastro-intestinal tract and causes bleeding<quote> It might play a factor but parvo in and of itself is deadly. Wo unless necropsy were done to determine bleed out one would not know. I would also like to see the study where they tested the remains for Vwd affected. Without it we are guessing on this one, but in theory it does make sense.

Dogs with type I disease have reduced but measurable levels of Von Willebrand factor (1 to 60 per cent). Animals that inherit the gene for type I vWD from both parents (homozygotes) die before birth or shortly thereafter<Quote> I would think if this were true it would have eliminated itself as none would survive that were affected to breed and believe you me breeders would not breed any affectes if they had puppies dying. My problem with is this is thought to be the case but not sure the statistics prove it out.

Affected dogs have zero levels of vWF, while carrier parents have 15 to 60 per cent of normal levels.<quote>
I have a hard time with this one as for years we produced Vwd affecteds that survived surgeries etc and no problems. I personally had an affected bitch by Vet Gen DNA test who had crop/dock and at 2 had major surgery for blockage then went on to have 2 litters ALL with out single problem and there were no extra precautions taken because there was no great reason to be concerned.

Fourth article: <quote> dog may test differently on different days, when blood is drawn from different veins, when the dog is more excited, or if the dog is pregnant, so it may be necessary to test a dog several times before being comfortable with the result. This type of testing does not indicate what type of von Willebrand's disease is present and further testing by a technique called "electrophoresis" is needed to do this if one is interested. Knowing the Type of von Willebrand's disease is unlikely to change therapy thus testing is not commonly done.<quote> So if it doesn't change therapy and testing is not commonly done then why now are they pushing all this test stuff as if a dog as 13% according to the above info the dog is not Vwd affected if affected have 0.

<quote>A hormone called DDAVP (or "desmopressin acetate") can be helpful as its use seems to cause a sudden release of von Willebrand's factor into the bloodstream. After a 30 minute onset period, the use of DDAVP shortens the bleeding time for approximately 2 hours after the after DDAVP injection<quote>

Why is this option not discussed since so few if any every have an issue of it especaily as younger dogs which is even less of a problem.

From the DPCA web site on Vwd - vWd (VON WILLEBRAND'S DISEASE) - is an autosomally (not sex linked) inherited bleeding disorder with a prolonged bleeding time and a mild to severe factor IX deficiency. Von Willebrand's factor antigens of 70% 180% are considered to be within the normal range for Dobermans. When dogs are tested through the Elisa assay blood test for vWD, they are tested for carrier status only NOT the disease. It is believed that carrier status tests (Elisa assay) are inaccurate if a dog is ill, received any medication or vaccination within 14 days of testing, pregnancy, bitches in heat or lactation. Stress conditions (infections, parasites, hormonal changes, trauma, surgery, emotional upset, etc.) may have an effect on the outcome of the vWD blood test and might be a contributing factor for bleeding tendencies. vWD carrier status is quite common in Dobermans. A DNA test for vWD is now available - genetically: clear, carrier (inherited one disease gene), affected (inherited two disease genes) - results are not effected by stress conditions, etc.

From the vet gen web site:
vonWillebrand's disease (vWD) results from a
qualitative or quantitative abnormality of vWf. It is the
most common hereditary bleeding disorder in dogs and has
been described in several breeds.
4
Clinical signs of the
disease include spontaneous bleeding from mucosal
surfaces and excess blood loss after surgery or trauma. von
Willebrand's disease is classified into 3 major categories,
types I-III.
5
In type-I vWd, there is a proportionate
decrease in all vWf multimers. In type II , vWd, the large
multimers are reduced or absent and may be qualitatively
abnormal. In type-III vWd, vWf is not detectable. Type-I
vWd occurs in many breeds of dogs and is particularly
prevalent in Doberman Pinschers, with reported prevalence
of 70%.
6
Type-II vWd has been described in German
Shorthaired Pointers, and type-III vWd occurs in Scottish
Terriers and Chesapeake Bay Retrievers.
6
vWD Type I
In 1996 VetGen scientists, in collaboration with the University of Michigan and Michigan State University, proudly announced the discovery of the mutation that causes Type I von Willebrand's Disease (vWD) and the offering of a DNA test to detect vWD in the above breeds.

My conclusions - There is a lot of info floating around out there and it takes a dedicated person to sift through it all to try to come up with the true picture. 2600 is outrageous for something that a vitamin K shot or DDVP seems to be the most reasonable decision if one wants to even take the precautions. There is risk in surgery regardless so in that case based on this extreme precautions we should stop all spay/neuters to avoid all risk period.

Honestly I am glad this thread came up a s surely we are all learning things.
 
Quee this is part of what is so confusing First a person who health test and temperament test is not a BYB - BYB for the most part don't even know any of that stuff exist let alone test for it. A puppy mill is not a BYB - a puppy mill has large # of different breeds and sells primarily to brokers who take them to pet stores.

JQP is confused enough on these issue and that is how ALL breeders got lumped into the bad catagory.

If someone is charging 2600 for a spay I would contact the attorney General - No kidding. A spay is normally 3 to 500.00 depending on what area you live in. I would ask for an itimezied list of exactly what they are doing??? Using gold plaited scaples, and silver sutchers???? That is how people get ripped off JMHO - going overboard. Spay is one of the most frequent surgeries done - why won't your vet do it???

You can comne here and my vet will do ti for less than $350 = you can have a vacation and visit KC and not spend that much money. That is highway robbery.

If the trend continues in the next 10 years people won't be able to afford pets.

I know it's confusing - hopefully by discussing these issues we can clear things up. I personally know 2 Back Yard Breeders in Northwest Indiana - my best friend's husband got their two 'designer' dogs from these breeders. They're borderline puppy mill since they breed different breeds of designer dogs (i.e. Maltipoo, YorkiePoo, etc.) BUT their dogs are raised in a caring, quality environment, the dogs are pampered, and before they began breeding these mixes of dogs they not only got AKC registered dams and sires but they also health tested them for diseases and genetic defects so that they wouldn't breed those into their mixes. They also don't sell to brokers or to pet stores, and they typically have 2 litters per breed hybrid per year. To me they're still a BYB but I can understand when some say they're a mill, and while I think there are far too many unwanted dogs in the world for people to breed more of them, these guys aren't the worst offenders.

Changing topics - I agree that $2600 fo a spay is not right. I've seen rates here in Illinois from under $200 (humane society) to less than $400 at the high end. Even with VWd issues and the need to control excessive bleeding, I woud be surprised if my vets said it would cost more than $500 for the spay service.
 

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