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Adding to the spay conversations -
- Thread starter Ravenbird
- Start date
I love that walmart has those now! I spent $$ on that 'suiticle' suit years back for Glory, and was thrilled with it. I swear by it if you have a 'picker'....Dobermans are so great not minding wearing clothes. I can just picture Asha walking around, all pathetic....hanging her head on anything that would hold it while she stands like a horse 
These dobes are so hilarious.
I am glad she is turning the corner.
These dobes are so hilarious.I am glad she is turning the corner.
It's so strange, because she has never been bothered wearing her coat outside or a robe-jacket for after a bath, and with all the things I put on her she didn't care as long as we were doing something. If I sat down or was doing chores she just wouldn't lay down on her bed. She was definitely having a pity party.
After looking at her wearing it for two days I'm realizing that the Large really barely fits. She's a perfect standard size female with a moderate chest, def not as deep or broad as some, still weighs 68 - 70 lbs. This L would probably not fit a dog the same size but with a larger chest. Which wouldn't be a problem if the next size up was just that, but the XL is about 2 sizes up, if not 3. It does say on the sizing L matched Ashas size in neck and length, but the girth was listed as 23 - 26 and Asha is 31. The velcro adjusts for the girth but the front is what is overly snug. I'd pay double for something like this if they fixed the sizing for deep chested breeds and had some in-between sizes!
I wonder if Dobermans just have such different body shapes from other breeds that standard stuff just doesn't fit them right? I know Meadowcat gets tons of orders when she custom makes her stuff and a lot of the orders come from Doberman owners.
It really is a brilliant design, with so much adjustable with the velcro and the back legs unsnap so you don't have to take off the whole suit to let them go potty. I shouldn't be surprised though, the couple of sweaters I got at the local pet shop were the same: fit the chest the rest was huge. I never got around to ordering one from Meadowcat. Just thought I'd give that personal review since several people mentioned it after I posted the picture of it.
Yup, I can see it straining at the shoulders on her! If they made a style for greyhounds I think that would be the ticket.
That's great news and always such a huge relief!I believe we are out of the woods and heading for complete recovery.
DD4MSpock
Hot Topics Subscriber
If I may refocus the discussion ever so slightly:
I have always been somewhat apprehensive of spaying/neutering unless it was necessary for some urgent/emergent medical issue that could be life threatening if not treated. I also acknowledge that there are some medical conditions, not necessarily life threatening, but would dramatically improve the life of the dog... maybe even the life of the owner as well
(eg. less scent marking inside the house if any, etc. etc.). FTR, Mr. Spock was never neutered, lived to be 14 years and never scent marked inside the house at all. Then again, we kept him under strong controls so he could not roam free to mate with other dogs.
Except for strict "population control" reasons (which I believe to be the primary reason why animal rights orgs, full breeders (not BYBs) etc, want their dogs spayed/neutered), what in your belief would be some of the major "emergent/urgent" scenarios that would make you want to spay/neuter your dog, if not already done or not a requirement of your breeder?
I have always been somewhat apprehensive of spaying/neutering unless it was necessary for some urgent/emergent medical issue that could be life threatening if not treated. I also acknowledge that there are some medical conditions, not necessarily life threatening, but would dramatically improve the life of the dog... maybe even the life of the owner as well
(eg. less scent marking inside the house if any, etc. etc.). FTR, Mr. Spock was never neutered, lived to be 14 years and never scent marked inside the house at all. Then again, we kept him under strong controls so he could not roam free to mate with other dogs.Except for strict "population control" reasons (which I believe to be the primary reason why animal rights orgs, full breeders (not BYBs) etc, want their dogs spayed/neutered), what in your belief would be some of the major "emergent/urgent" scenarios that would make you want to spay/neuter your dog, if not already done or not a requirement of your breeder?
I initially thought it would be ok to leave Asha intact for life, like you, I thought it unnecessary unless an emergency. My housemates Dutch Shepherd was intact until age 10 when she had to be spayed due to progesterone related diabetes. At the end of her heat cycles she would become agitated, extremely thirsty, madly hungry and just generally not her usual self. The 2nd time this happened she was taken to the vet and the blood sugar level was off the charts. The vet recognized that she was intact and had recently finished a heat cycle and said the answer was as simple as spaying her. She could not live with those blood sugar levels, not to mention the dog was miserable. It was an easy decision to have her spayed, but at age 10, complications can happen, recover can take longer and risks are higher. Thankfully it all went well.
Here is a chart of what happens to an intact female every single cycle, 2 x a year:
Here's the whole article if you like details: Progesterone-Related Diabetes Mellitus in the Bitch: Current Knowledge, the Role of Pyometra, and Relevance in Practice - PMC
With Asha, unlike Reckless, her heat cycles included several strong false pregnancies and many mild false pregnancies. More mild as she got older, so I was happy about that. What I did notice though was the emotional cycle was predictable for 2 months after every single cycle. As I watched I began thinking more and more that an intact bitch that never gets pregnant is not a natural thing. Their hormones are strong leaning toward being in a pregnant state. In a wild or feral dog population there would be no such thing as a bitch not whelping after every heat. This is me humanizing her emotions, but I do feel like she knew something was not happening like it should. But the last straw? Her last heat, she finished up and within a few days she began pacing a lot, then drinking excessively, and her normal high food drive was more like she was starving to death. It only lasted about 2 weeks, but because of what I'd seen Reckless go through I knew this was her blood sugar spiking. Thankfully it was not nearly as bad as Reckless had it, and faded away before it got so bad that I felt like taking her in to the vet, but that was the final reason. I also wanted to spay during the Anestrus when her hormones were completely "flat", the timing being on my terms, not due to any emergency. Pyometra is deadly and can require emergency spay and that is also another reason to spay bitches. Also, at 6 1/2 years, the surgery risks are beginning to become a thing. I absolutely couldn't imagine being able to see 10 years with my girl and then lose her in an emergency spay, so I thought really, I just need to do this now.
I do totally agree that males should be kept intact for life. They don't have hormone fluctuations, or pyometra to worry about. I also think that females should be fully mature when spayed, 18 months at minimum and preferably between 2 and 3.
I'm glad you asked, hope this gives you more insight. I seriously thought there was no truly good reason to spay at all, especially since I am with my dog almost 24/7 and have previous vet experience and always felt like I could catch Pyo instantly. Turns out, over all the reasons I simply decided it is not natural for a bitch to go through cycle after cycle after cycle and never experience raising puppies.
DD4MSpock
Hot Topics Subscriber
Understood. I knew that there were some of those "medical necessities" in females that might call for a spay to keep them healthy. Admittedly, I was more concerned about males being neutered more for "population control" reasons, rather than for some critical medical necessity. But I was aware of some concern in re: testosterone overabundance in males (leading to excessive behaviors, scent marking inside a house, etc. etc). As stated, Mr. Spock never did that and stayed in tact his whole life.
I also would prefer to keep any males in tact unless medically necessary. But I thought that most pure breeders have a contract clause that requires male pups from their breeds to be neutered at some point (2 years max I think)... This to keep the breed under control, (i.e. prevent BYB by the pups' owners, etc.) and to keep the genetic lines in tact, etc. I know pure breeders work hard on those genetic lines. They want to preserve their hard work.
That, and of course, the pressure from the outside orgs (PETA etc.) to spay/neuter for population control.
BG1
Hot Topics Subscriber
Closed pyometra. We actually spayed Bonnie a little early on a misdiagnosis of possible pyo that I think was UTI (see the video on "The Doberman Way" youtube channel for a good explanation.)If I may refocus the discussion ever so slightly:
I have always been somewhat apprehensive of spaying/neutering unless it was necessary for some urgent/emergent medical issue that could be life threatening if not treated. I also acknowledge that there are some medical conditions, not necessarily life threatening, but would dramatically improve the life of the dog... maybe even the life of the owner as well
Except for strict "population control" reasons (which I believe to be the primary reason why animal rights orgs, full breeders (not BYBs) etc, want their dogs spayed/neutered), what in your belief would be some of the major "emergent/urgent" scenarios that would make you want to spay/neuter your dog, if not already done or not a requirement of your breeder?
We were going to anyway at 2 years which is from the UC Davis study updated here:
New Study Updates Spay-Neuter Timeline Guidance for Popular Dog Breeds
New research has updated the timeline on the best age to spay or neuter 41 popular dog breeds to help prevent joint disorders and certain cancers.
www.akc.org
Downside is something like 1/3 of spays end up with incontinence, and
There is heightened risk of thyroid issues, which so far we have dodged.
As she is a BYB pet companion, no interest in breeding her. If I had a male I'd think seriously about leaving intact, per risk/reward in the study.
I understand why the rescues insist on neutering but find it sort of discreditable that some vets casually recommend at 12 months, as IMV you should be responsible enough to manage your bitch until its gone at least a couple cycles and completion of the long bone growth plates, etc.
I remember the general idea 60 years ago waa to have at least a litter, before spay as it was considered settling, brought out maternal instinct and maturity- these were in dick and pheasant hunting dogs, springers, chessies, labs.
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BG1
Hot Topics Subscriber
And from what I read at show dog forums, marking indoors and humping is a behavior that can be trained out. I imagine there are exceptions but I dont think the standard fix for aggression by neutering is a good idea, unless you have first gotten good trainer/vet behaviorist assessment and health test. Better is to train your boy to behave well in public.
Again, defer to the experts here as I'm a relative noob; BYB Bonnie now agr 3, and another bitch 30 years ago that was so easy I've forgotten any problems...
Again, defer to the experts here as I'm a relative noob; BYB Bonnie now agr 3, and another bitch 30 years ago that was so easy I've forgotten any problems...
remy
Active Member
I plan to keep my male intact. We show in conformation so he needs to be anyways, but he is a “good” intact male and I’ve had no problems due to him being intact. Doesn’t mark indoors, doesn’t hump, etc… (although both of those can be a training issue as well).
If I had a female I would spay eventually. The risk of pyometra scares me. I plan on staying involved with conformation and potentially breeding one day, so I’d spay whenever the dog was “retired”. If I had “pet” dogs that didn’t need to be intact, I’d likely spay around 2-3 years old.
If I had a female I would spay eventually. The risk of pyometra scares me. I plan on staying involved with conformation and potentially breeding one day, so I’d spay whenever the dog was “retired”. If I had “pet” dogs that didn’t need to be intact, I’d likely spay around 2-3 years old.
MichiH
Hot Topics Subscriber
I was on the fence with spaying and rather not have done it, but definitely had to have Pepper spayed. It seems it’s better in the long run for females too. She was having intense false pregnancies after each heat, which seemed to get worse each time. She was also having gi upset before each heat as well, her stomach as we know is sensitive. Like @Ravenbird said human feelings attached to theirs- I felt bad each time she had a heat and no puppies. She was very depressed and down it was horrible to see. Plus, the constant watch of a dog who is in heat is a lot of work it can be scary too. Maybe that’s selfish, but we live in a highly populated area and watching her every move is exhausting. Even walks around the neighborhood were a chore because you’re on guard like a crazy person.
I don’t know though it seems for females there can be health issues regardless if you spay or not. That is one of the reasons I was back and forth with having it done.
I don’t know though it seems for females there can be health issues regardless if you spay or not. That is one of the reasons I was back and forth with having it done.
