Von Willebrand's Disease

[Asteria]

But when I see little people carrying around a grocery bag full of medicine and vets pushing annual vaccinations I believe something is wrong with the system.

No comment on the veterinary stuff as that isn’t my field of practice.

Yes it is sad. But you never know why they have the medicine. That little person may have a life long battle with a disorder and needs those medicines to increase quality of life. Don't be so quick to judge there. You never know what is going on with someone. It may have been that very system doing all those tests and giving that medication that saved that little person’s life.

And like I said previously, and I just want to restate: I am in no way shape or form encouraging or condoning the "pushing of pills" that are not necessary to improve comfort and quality of life and well being.

Most older generation physicians unfortunately do push pills and I don't agree with that in the way I was taught and know medicine. The good news is the new generation that is taking over is not being trained in medical schools to practice that way and so the hope is to provide a better spectrum of care after the older generation is phased out.

Happy Day Everyone - off to work I go.

 

[Tasha & Boris' Mom]

Are there other types of Vwd absolutely but Dobermans to date don't have that kind - they only have type 1 the mildest form and I have never heard of a dog bleeding out due to Vwd for spay/neuter or other surgeries and I know a lot of Doberman breeders, owners and handlers.

My understanding is type I, type II and type III are only degrees of the damage or mutation to the platelets or the complete absence (type III) of the Von Willebrand factor which is the glue that holds the platelets together that cause clotting. Is this not true?

It is very uncommon for a doberman or any dog for that matter to have type II or type III. Tasha tested out at 13% so I suppose according to some of the research she would have Type II but then some of the research says 0-19% is Type III. if this is not how they type it could you explain the difference in the 3 types?

I know It is getting much more common in our area due to the saturation of the genetic disorder by the inbreeding of affected dog to affected dog. In Tasha'a instance she was more than likely the pup of a brother and sister that were both carriers. As with any genetic disorder the more inbreeding the greater the likelihood and/or impact of the genetic defect.

I agree, as a breeder you probably don't have much exposure to this because your dogs are bred and raised responsibly but as a hillbilly buyer like myself it is really becoming an issue. I don't have much exposure to the Doberman world other than here on DC but I personally know 3 people with dobermans that battle this condition. Other places in the world may not be having such a problem. Let me post a some of the research that I found and you can tell me if it is not correct. If I am wrong I would really like to know the truth.

von Willebrand's Disease | AKC Canine Health Foundation

http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Dog-Health-Center/Heart-and-Blood-Disorders/Von-Willebrand-Disease.as


Cotton Ball Remedy helps canine pals-Real Life Experiences

Von Willebrand's Disease

The one thing I can tell you from my personal experience is Tasha BLEEDS! like crazy, even when she loses a tooth. Every scrape, cut or from her surgical scar. The plasma she was given during surgery helped some for a few days but then on Thanksgiving she lost another tooth and we had blood everywhere. We did order the additive to go in the plasma that puts the VonW factor in the plasma temporarily but it cost a fortune and it only lasts for a few hours so it is not really that useful. Mostly we put pressure on the wound and make her lay still until it starts to clot and it does eventually clot and thankfully she heals quickly. We have a plan in place in case of major injury but if I am not with her within minutes she could bleed out which is what happened to my neighbor.

 

[Jacquie.t]

I just got the call back from my vet with the results of her blood work. Sadly My Angel is 90% positive with her coagulant levels at 17%. Well below the minimum of 35% he must have to safely perform her spay. He is contacting the animal hospital but it looks like if I do go through with it, she will more than likely need transfusions.

I am just going to pick my battles and think of her safety first. I may just leave her intact and not do the spay. Going to wait until I hear what the hospital says

As you can see, my nub bum is worth what ever it takes to keep her healthy!

 

[Jacquie.t]

I took pics of the hand out that my vet gave me yesterday that I was asked to post. Here they are

 

[Archer]

I just got the call back from my vet with the results of her blood work. Sadly My Angel is 90% positive with her coagulant levels at 17%. Well below the minimum of 35%.

As you can see, my nub bum is worth what ever it takes to keep her healthy]

I am so sorry to hear your news. Your little girl is SO worth it! What a doll! I think you are being conscientious and will make whatever decision is best for you and your girl. She definitely has a momma who loves her.

As far as the debate on vWD, I'm gonna stay out of it. I will add this professional knowledge, however as I can't turn off my educator button There are various "subcatagories" of vWD I. They range from mild to severe as do the symptoms. Rarely do canines have vWD II or III as they are seen most often in humans and typically non-existent in Dobermans. Certain breeds are an exception to this. Genetics is a weird thing, however and much is still unknown.

 

[Quee]

Tasha's Mom,

Please forgive me as I'm no so confused. I really do trust my vet. He has never steered me wrong which is why I have stayed with him for 18 years and recommended him to anyone who asks. It has also been made very clear from his clinical workers that they pay extra close attention to their Dobe's. I could go on about the many wonderful things that he does for animals and in the community but I will refrain . Just know when I say that he, and his office staff are truly one of a kind and often put the health of an animal before the all mighty dollar

This being said, am I to assume that the blood test is valuable but should have been done the day of the surgery and not the week before? Should the DNA test still be done and I postpone her spay until after I have the results . I already paid for it so I guess that is a mute point now. Im just scared postpone it because I lost a beloved pet to Cancer because I didn't fix her. If I wait Angel may go into heat and I know with every heat, her risk for breast cancer increases

Given your professional background and personal experience that you spoke of, I really value your opinion and look forward to some clarification

I also have a rescue Dobe and have been through some minor health scares with her. I don't know her VWd status, but it is most likely she does not have it. She was found at about 18 months of age having tangled with a train - she was all cut up but thankfully no broken bones. She was transported from Kentucky to Illinois where I adopted her a few weeks after she was found. Prior to adopting her she was spayed, and most likely she had a litter of puppies before hand given her teat size/condition. Given all this information, while she might be a carrier it's unlikely that she actually has the disease. She's had several other minor cuts and bumps since - stepping on glass in the street, getting caught in a fence wire, busting her lip doing zoomies up metal stairs. She stops bleeding quicker than I do so unless she develops any bleeding problems later in life I don't intend to test her for vWD.

At our vet's she has had a full blood workup twice now - once when she was sick, and once right before I had her put under to get her teeth cleaned. While they didn't test for vWD specifically, she did get a clean bill of health for other conditions that might cause problems for her with anesthesia. While I think it's really important to know your dog's condition before any surgery and especially if you're breeding them, I think if you've experienced events that indicate that they're fine (like cuts that heal with no problem) and you're not breeding your dogs, it's not as urgent of a thing to have done. Incidentally, I don't think the rescue where I got Pippi from tests specifically for vWD (I'll ask them when I talk to the founder this weekend) prior to spaying/neutering, and they spay/neuter all dogs prior to adoption. They are a Doberman-specific rescue (IL Doberman Rescue) although they rescue other dogs, but they're very knowledgeable about our breed.

 

[MicheleM]

Stop buying puppies from BYB! They stay in Business because people buy their puppies!
Spend the money on a puppy that comes from a breeder that health tests. Save yourself the heartache and thousands of dollars in vet bills.

 

[Marinegeekswife]

Stop buying puppies from BYB! They stay in Business because people buy their puppies!
Spend the money on a puppy that comes from a breeder that health tests. Save yourself the heartache and thousands of dollars in vet bills.

This kind of thing is unnecessary here. The puppy has been purchased and brought home. Now the owner and pup need our support. Education is the key, not beating people over the head.

 

[Asteria]

Stop buying puppies from BYB! They stay in Business because people buy their puppies! Spend the money on a puppy that comes from a breeder that health tests. Save yourself the heartache and thousands of dollars in vet bills.

I think your post could possibly become misinterpreted by other onlookers. I say that because I could see myself being offended if this was myself in the past reading this.

While I don't condone BYB, some people (like my self at one time) were not as educated and involved in a forum to gather such knowledge with their first Dobe. My first Dobe was not health tested, nor where his parents. And I did not have thousands in vet bills or heartache during his lifetime. My dobe had a very good tempermant and experienced no health problems. Lucky or not call it what you want.

I have realized through others interactions to people and myself as well that some people may be more senstive then you are and it is very easy to take written words harsher than spoken words and I just dont want to see that happen on here. I love this forum and have been very happy to be a part of it. I came here because I saw things being said and people being bashed instead of educated all over another popular Doberman forum and I wanted to be away from that.

Jacuie.t, I hope you find answers on here to any questions you may have in the future. We are glad to have you here and I hope your girl has a long happy life.

 

[Ataro]

I should add: not everyone coming from outside of the US/Canada/Australia or western Europe has access to thoroughly health tested puppies. Does that mean that they just shouldn't get one? In Latin America and Eastern Europe (ex-USSR) there is very little health testing done, but it doesn't mean that the dogs are dropping dead at age 4. There are important things like pedigree longevity for breeders to take account of, as well as health testing. Some European breeders health test extensively and yet use lines heavily affected by DCM, which I was avoiding and that is why it took me so long to find a puppy. In cases like this, I really have to wonder: if you know your dog has a life expectancy of about 6 years, why even bother with health testing at all?

That said, my first Dobe puppy was a BYB pup that I had to put down at 6 months old due to kidney failure and tumours. She was my first bought dog (my others were all given to me by people my mother knew or worked with, that were the result of accidental litters or just adult rehomes) and the worst pet experience I have ever had, and I regret ever buying her (cruel as that sounds) because of the expense, the dangers of her aggression, and the heartache of having to give up what I had just welcomed into my life. In hindsight, I don't know if it would have been any different coming from an ethical breeder. Sure, an ethical breeder might have offered me another puppy at a discount or something along those lines, but the bottom line is not everything can be tested for and buying from a BYB does not mean that your dog is guaranteed to be sick.

And I wish I could say that temperament is better coming from an ethical breeder, but that's not always the case either. It really bothers me when I see people posting about their dog's dangerous behaviour and people over the Internet who have never met them or their dog immediately start telling them that they shouldn't own a Dobe or that their Dobe is fine and they're just a bad owner (referring to that other forum here).

I am very against BYBs, but you can't flat out tell someone that a puppy will have a long and healthy life just because it comes from an ethical breeder. Unless a breeder is part of a longevity program, I wouldn't even bet on their lines living to an old age. Will it be show material? Most likely not. Will it have an outstanding temperament? Assuming it wasn't taken away too early from its mother it may or may not. Great working ability? Probably not, but people who just want a companion aren't looking for those sorts of things anyway.

What I'm trying to say is people need to want to buy from an ethical breeder because it's the ethical thing to do and because an ethical breeder is going to offer them lifetime support regardless of what happens. There's no reason to start telling them that they would have had a better or healthier pet because that may or may not be the case. I do recall, MicheleM that Juno had some questionable x-rays and you were worried about her passing the hip test. I'm not picking on you, just pointing out that things can happen.

 

[MicheleM]

Jacquie rescued her puppy from a shelter!! I wasn't talking about her and her experience. I was Stating a fact, an opinion.

 

[MicheleM]

I should add: not everyone coming from outside of the US/Canada/Australia or western Europe has access to thoroughly health tested puppies. Does that mean that they just shouldn't get one? In Latin America and Eastern Europe (ex-USSR) there is very little health testing done, but it doesn't mean that the dogs are dropping dead at age 4. There are important things like pedigree longevity for breeders to take account of, as well as health testing. Some European breeders health test extensively and yet use lines heavily affected by DCM, which I was avoiding and that is why it took me so long to find a puppy. In cases like this, I really have to wonder: if you know your dog has a life expectancy of about 6 years, why even bother with health testing at all?

That said, my first Dobe puppy was a BYB pup that I had to put down at 6 months old due to kidney failure and tumours. She was my first bought dog (my others were all given to me by people my mother knew or worked with, that were the result of accidental litters or just adult rehomes) and the worst pet experience I have ever had, and I regret ever buying her (cruel as that sounds) because of the expense, the dangers of her aggression, and the heartache of having to give up what I had just welcomed into my life. In hindsight, I don't know if it would have been any different coming from an ethical breeder. Sure, an ethical breeder might have offered me another puppy at a discount or something along those lines, but the bottom line is not everything can be tested for and buying from a BYB does not mean that your dog is guaranteed to be sick.

And I wish I could say that temperament is better coming from an ethical breeder, but that's not always the case either. It really bothers me when I see people posting about their dog's dangerous behaviour and people over the Internet who have never met them or their dog immediately start telling them that they shouldn't own a Dobe or that their Dobe is fine and they're just a bad owner (referring to that other forum here).

I am very against BYBs, but you can't flat out tell someone that a puppy will have a long and healthy life just because it comes from an ethical breeder. Unless a breeder is part of a longevity program, I wouldn't even bet on their lines living to an old age. Will it be show material? Most likely not. Will it have an outstanding temperament? Assuming it wasn't taken away too early from its mother it may or may not. Great working ability? Probably not, but people who just want a companion aren't looking for those sorts of things anyway.

What I'm trying to say is people need to want to buy from an ethical breeder because it's the ethical thing to do and because an ethical breeder is going to offer them lifetime support regardless of what happens. There's no reason to start telling them that they would have had a better or healthier pet because that may or may not be the case. I do recall, MicheleM that Juno had some questionable x-rays and you were worried about her passing the hip test. I'm not picking on you, just pointing out that things can happen.

Yes Ataro Juno did have Questionable X-ray results from my local vet. That's why I drove ten hours and had a vet that does OFA X-rays do it and she passed with no problem. If she didn't pass I would not breed her The sire I'm using is OFA excellent. Thanks so much for being my health testing up. You can easily find her on dobequest as well as the OFA data base

 

[MicheleM]

Ataro, Juno is VW carrier and the sire is VW clear

 

[Ataro]

Yes Ataro Juno did have Questionable X-ray results from my local vet. That's why I drove ten hours and had a vet that does OFA X-rays do it and she passed with no problem. If she didn't pass I would not breed her The sire I'm using is OFA excellent. Thanks so much for being my health testing up. You can easily find her on dobequest as well as the OFA data base

I did read on your site that she passed, and it is great that you are using an OFA excellent sire which will obviously improve the chances of her pups coming out with great hips (I hope that they all turn out excellent, by the way). I'm just saying that even though you obviously got her from a good breeder, she didn't get OFA excellent (ie. things can happen). On an ironic end note, I had that sick pup that I put down hip scored, and her hips were excellent - I had been worrying about things like that after doing more research on ethical breeders, but it turned out that was the least of my worries.

 

[Quee]

I'm with Jess - I think people who come to this forum mean well and are trying to learn, and cutting people down just chases them away like that other forum that many of us ran screeching from to find a more palatable forum.

I may be asking for it by this comment but here goes: while many BYB's are bad and should be put out of business, not all of them are bad and there are some that, while their primary motivation is to make a profit, they breed well-tempered, healthy dogs. While I don't agree with BYB's in principle I would rather see a BYB that takes proper care of their animals and breeds health-tested and health, even-tempered animals than the rampant puppy mill BYB's with 100 dogs in a tiny kennel or those who don't give a rats you-know-what about the health of the animal, or whether or not they're well-suited to prospective owners.

By the same token, not every AKC-sanctioned breeder is good breeder either - many are great, but some try to breed in personality traits like aggressiveness which some of us would call flaws, or those breeders who breed 'monster-sized' Dobermans. And at the end of the day, no breeder can guarantee any event or outcome in a dog's lifetime, but they can breed to breed and ethical standards in the hopes that the chance of problems is minimized.

My Dobe is a rescue and I suspect she came from a BYB, but probably a 'good' one in the sense that she's absolutely gorgeous-looking, has a great temperment with people (even newborns!), doesn't seem to have any health issues other than a sensitive tummy and food allergies (which I have too so we're well-matched), and already knew some hand signals and training when I got her that her foster didn't even know about. I've no idea where she ultimately came from but as a rescue she was well worth the risk I took on her unknown origins. All this to say, regardless of where we get our dogs from, we're taking a chance on their health and personalities.

 

[Tasha & Boris' Mom]

I just got the call back from my vet with the results of her blood work. Sadly My Angel is 90% positive with her coagulant levels at 17%. Well below the minimum of 35% he must have to safely perform her spay. He is contacting the animal hospital but it looks like if I do go through with it, she will more than likely need transfusions.

I am just going to pick my battles and think of her safety first. I may just leave her intact and not do the spay. Going to wait until I hear what the hospital says

As you can see, my nub bum is worth what ever it takes to keep her healthy!

View attachment 16853

Ow Jacquie please don't be afraid. Many many hugs! I have been where you are.
I got the news while traveling through Arkansas No one should get bad news while traveling through Arkansas! I was scared, and crying thinking my baby was going to be so sick. I was wrong and my team of doctors put a plan together and she did fine through spaying just this last week. Tasha tested at 13%, Dr Stucky and Dr. Ramsey met with me and let me know anything beyond 35% is a danger but went through the whole process of how we would do the surgery and the precautions we would do to include the VWd flavored plasma. We didn't even have to use it. She had two transfusions which were only like 60 bucks apiece. She did great. This disorder is manageable and after the initial shock that your baby is handicapped you will find that regardless you would not trade any moment with her. I have done a lot of soul searching about doing a rescue instead of using good sense and getting a pup that was well and healthy but someone has to do the rescuing and that is you,that is me and many others like us, so study, ask questions, get all the information you can so we can be a better help to the next generation of owners that go through what we are going through.

We have been to see Dr. Stucky today to check her stitches. He said she was doing WONDERFUL! She has this huge lampshade on because she wont stop the licking She is soooo embarrassed but I told her to stop the licking, did she listen??? nooo now she has a lamp shade! She is sitting in James's lap looking forlorn and abused.

By the way your baby is just beautiful.......

 

[Jacquie.t]

I'm not really up on all the lingo so I'm not sure what a BYB is but I'm guessing it's private "puppy mill's" that are just out for a buck, over breed and give no real care to the animal it's self.

MicheleM asked a few posts up why I didn't like using breeders and at that time I didn't want to answer for fear of hostility but I have had so PM's with her and I know that is not the case, just a curious question so here is my answer.

Growing up on a cattle ranch in Oregon we had tons of dogs - mostly border collies for their herding ability. My mom decided to get one from a breeder because of all the pressure she was getting that "breeders were better". She did go to an AKC sanctioned breeder and the breeder claimed the sun, moon and starts about her breed. That collie had more health issues than I can list (or remember this many years later) and the breeder still stood her ground and called the vet a quack and a money grabber. Long story short, my mother made a big mistake one day and believed the breeder instead of the vet and didn't get her treated properly and we needlessly lost the collie. Then about 5 years ago, a friend gave us a Husky that came from a breeder... that didn't work out so well either.
On the other hand, we had two inbred pups who lived 11 and 13 years with no health or temperament issues ever. My pit bull that I had for about 10 years was also inbred (mother and son = her). Her temperament and train-ability was beyond amazing and great with my then 2 year old son. She was by far the best dog I ever had as a family pet. Yes she died of Cancer but that was my fault because I never fixed her so she could have a litter.....
The last reason (and most important to me) is that there are so many animals, mix and purebred that are euthanized everyday. Some of them CAME from breeders but the novelty wore off for the new owners. Some are never adopted because they have health issues and EVERYONE wants a PERFECT dog. I can not willingly purchase a dog for $1600 - $2600 when I know there are others out there that just want to be taken care of and loved.

That being said, I just want to be clear that I don't have anything against breeders nor against anyone who purchases from a breeder. This is just MY preference based on my experience

Also, to be clear, I didnt rescue Angel FROM a shelter. I rescued her from GOING TO a Shelter because the owner (who rescued her from the original owner) was going to have to take her to a shelter if he didn't get rid of her soon. If you see my post in "Introduce Yourself", It tells the story of Angel

Hello everyone!

My name is Jacquie and I live in Canada with my husband, my 3 children (3yrs, 5yrs, 19yrs) and our newest "4 legged" addition Angel.

I lost my beloved Pit Bull Glycerine after 10 years to cancer. She was my pride and joy and the best dog I had ever owned - until Angel!

It took me 6 years of mourning to be able to love another dog as I knew it would have some big shoes to fill. After listening to my 2 youngest children begging me for a dog I decided to get them one (I was ready as well). The only breed of dog that I have always wanted to have but never owned was a doberman so the search was on. I was looking to rescue an older one as I just didn't want to go through the puppy stage again. I had decided on a 2 year old male at a kennel but he was about 2 hours away so I had to work out a time line that the whole family could go and see him. The day before we had decided to go, my friend called me and told me about a 3 month old red doberman that she saw for sale. Although I didn't want a puppy, I figured I would call.

Her name was Angel and her owner brought her over for a visit. She was so beautiful and well behaved! She just melted our hearts!

I first asked all the temperament questions, the vet questions (he had her up-to-date) and then I asked why he was selling her. He said it was because he worked 18 hr shifts and she was always in her kennel. He just didn't feel she had a quality of life that she deserved. I work from home and am an avid bike rider so I knew she would be happy with us. I asked her owner if he would mind just leaving her with us for the week so we can see if she will adjust OK before I decide to purchase her. To my surprise he said:

"I can tell you are a loving family and you are the only ppl that she has never barked at. My first priority is for her to be in a good forever home. If you want her, you can have her - for free. I don't want money, I want her happy"​

That was 3 months ago. How is she you ask? Well, those big shoes she had to fill... she out grew them! She truly is our "Angel"

At the end of the day, my dog has what she has, and things are going to be how they are. All I can do is keep saving my pennies just in case Angel needs some plasma, keep loving her ... and see if my vet will "lose" the lab results so I can get pet insurance

 

[Tasha & Boris' Mom]

Ok I just went back and read all the post.

Michele I know you mean well but remember the majority of the people that buy, adopt or acquire dogs don't even quite know what a breeder is. In my day we went to Jerry's Perfect Pets" in the all new thing called a "mall" (no wise cracks about the dark ages). I raised Dalmatians while my kids were growing up and got them from a fiend at our local fire house. I knew nothing about what a breeder was or the dangers of what they now call ByB's. I am learning as I go.

I can counsel someone off a ledge, through depression, free from prison, overcoming emotional and physical devastating abuse. I am a pretty cool chick, but I didn't understand the danges of buying a puppy from a stranger, go figure

So be gentle we are here because we love our pets and want the best for them.

You know I love you

 

[Jacquie.t]

Dr. Ramsey met with me and let me know anything beyond 35% is a danger but went through the whole process of how we would do the surgery and the precautions we would do to include the VWd flavored plasma. We didn't even have to use it. She had two transfusions which were only like 60 bucks apiece. She did great.

Yes, now that the shock has wore off, Im ok.. and everything your Vet said, mine said as well... EXCEPT - I have to get Angels spay done at the animal hospital and there quote for her spay is $2600.00 with the plasma


so now im having a drink -come join me anytime!

 

[Tasha & Boris' Mom]

Yes, now that the shock has wore off, Im ok.. and everything your Vet said, mine said as well... EXCEPT - I have to get Angels spay done at the animal hospital and there quote for her spay is $2600.00 with the plasma


so now im having a drink -come join me anytime!

CHEERS I already started mine tonight I think ours was around $700 but I had some extra stuff done. I am so grateful my vet is the blood bank and hospital all in one. if you can get her to San Antonio I have a great doc.

Has angel already come into heat before? I wonder if that makes a difference? Tasha is still a baby (5 months) so she has not come into heat yet and as I understand it she doesn't necessarily have to have problems if she stays intact. Take a rest for tonight maybe we can come up with some answers - Prayer -