Reputable Euro Breeders

[Ziva23]

TRUTH!
I've had Am bred and Euro and they are basicly the same dog. Each have quirks of their own as well as assets but a crap shoot as far as energy levels.

Couldn't disagree more. American are tiny compared to European. My Euro Female is on pace to be 85 to 95 pounds. She is fit and lean and tall with phenomenal temperament.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Couldn't disagree more. American are tiny compared to European. My Euro Female is on pace to be 85 to 95 pounds. She is fit and lean and tall with phenomenal temperament.

I have noticed there is a sentiment around here that likes to minimize the differences between Euro and N. American.

 

[GennyB]

American are tiny compared to European

Not if they are bred to the standard. The standards are actually very similar.

 

[Ravenbird]

My Euro Female is on pace to be 85 to 95 pounds

But the FCI, covering most European countries states in the standard a high weight of 77 lbs for females. So is she taller than standard as well? This is what is being discussed in another thread - that someone preferring the FCI standard is looking for FCI standard Euros and I countered that most Euros I've seen advertised in the US are not FCI standards, most are over sized. Your girl is beautiful, but if someone is looking for a dog within standards of FCI, what kennels are breeding for that?

 

[MichiH]

Pepper is Euro, her dad is a Von Schwarz.

Pepper is just at standard size 24.5 inches at the withers and about 60-62 pounds depending on the day. Her dad 95 lbs and her mom 75 lbs.

She’s about 2.5 years old maybe she’ll fill out more? She’s definitely smaller and starting now really develop more muscle.

 

[JanS]

Pepper is just at standard size 24.5 inches at the withers and about 60-62 pounds depending on the day

That's about what Olive is too but I forgot to have her weighed when I took her to the vet a few weeks ago. If I remember right her dad is about 95# too and her mom looks to be slightly bigger than her when they are side by side.

 

[Rits]

Pepper is Euro, her dad is a Von Schwarz.

Pepper is just at standard size 24.5 inches at the withers and about 60-62 pounds depending on the day. Her dad 95 lbs and her mom 75 lbs.

She’s about 2.5 years old maybe she’ll fill out more? She’s definitely smaller and starting now really develop more muscle.

Find out what her grandparents are. Likely your answer is there! But her only being 24" tall she sounds like shes the perfect weight. Mom is likely taller.

 

[BG1]

I have noticed there is a sentiment around here that likes to minimize the differences between Euro and N. American.

Not to disagree per se; but in reply to uou @Oh Little Oji and intro to an idea:

I'm personally not seeing a coalesced agreement on NA vs EU definitions here, tbh.

My take is that in the informed ethical responsible doberman breeder/confo world its clear the AKC and FCI standards are height wise, just about the same. AKC has no weight standard, but FCI does.

As to temperament and testing, thats a different matter.

What I do see, especially in the show dog world a lot of well meant and I think correct concern about how "marketing" of the "EU"
or "European doberman" as a brand has created a perception in the collective mind of a new-uninformed public that

"European" is much bigger, the "hypertrope" idea of Dane or Corso looking mixes,

Which is appealing in some circles (lets say "ghetto dogs" just to create a "brand" characterization of safety conscious user, like for junkyard pitties)

that has both created popularity for that look,
See this popular youtuber:

Plus imho a bit of a rotation out of the popular frenchie into dobes as part of a sortof spandex clad sexy young influencer fad for "scary big black dogs" as fashion accessories. (Meow?)
Or people following Charles and the zippernose dog on IG...from RDC...

But whatever which in turn: because the supply of responsible to the confo standard breeder dogs in US can NOT be that,

and also that "the supply of responsible bred dogs by AKC or FCI standard, in either DPCA or UDC breed clubs, simply cannot meet the demand." This is the key. Where a demand exists, the market will fill it...and the number of really good long time responsible breeders of dobes proofing for (ideally in my mind) both structural healthy looks in confo AND temperament, nerve and drive in some organized trials .... is actually shrinking...
"The Total Doberman" or what Ray Carlisle worked for...
Or some folks elsewhere in dog world call Functional Dog breeding, for diversity, health, ability to do the job as bred for...

I read (and commented on "the other webforum" on this book (with not much interest, interestingly) on market dynamic idea explained in the book "The Dog Merchants" by Kim Kavan.

The Dog Merchants: Inside the Big Business of Breeders,…

In what promises to become an "Omnivore's Dilemma" for …

www.goodreads.com

You can browse reviews and descriptions there and Amazon for an idea about the authors take...I think many here will find it fascinating. There is an interview of the author on a podcast I'll find if there is more interest...

 

[BG1]

Anyway, my point is there are actually three "brands" in my mind- US show dogs, US working dogs, and the fake but popular idea that EU means something bigger and better, but as we know from experience from importation from unregulated easyern european commercial kennels or puppy mills, are dogs with poor genetic health.

So, you cant fix stupid in people.
And the market responds to unmet needs OR wants in the consumer market...moving even faster due to social media culture...

(teaser- read the book- Kavan interviewed a big rescue CEO and you get a sense its increased since that book was researched before Covid...even the big rescues and some of the commercial breeders admit a big portion of their sales to order come from rescues, via a web of brokers and transporters...wooooo!

So, What can you do?

 

[dobschroeder]

There are many European breeders who don't use dogs from those kennels and who constantly try to diversify their bloodlines; I even wrote a list in other posts.

I, for one, stay far away from those bloodlines, not only for health reasons but also because of temperament issues.

 

[BG1]

There are many European breeders who don't use dogs from those kennels and who constantly try to diversify their bloodlines; I even wrote a list in other posts.

I, for one, stay far away from those bloodlines, not only for health reasons but also because of temperament issues.

Thank you @dobschroeder for that list. I've bookmarked it for reference

and may I say its a huge benefit to me as a relative newbie to hear from experienced breeders like you and others here.

If I were to seriously search for another dobe it will be for EU/NA male from a line developed for stable calm temperament and drive, proofed by at minimum WAE or BH or ZTP, and some working type sport, health tested DCM free both sides not just "DNA" but echo/holter OFA advanced, plus copper storage and thyroid good, documented Cause of Death: over ten years lifespan.

Is that even possible or is that a unicorn?
I've asked elsewhere and its been...(crickets).

There is one US breeder that imports from all over the world, proofed by wins in AKC and UDC, judging for years. Are you familiar with Kansadobe?

 

[JanS]

Is that even possible or is that a unicorn?

It is possible but even when the parents have had those health tests it's not a 100% guarantee, but definitely helpful. It's a crap shoot for sure when they don't bother to do the proper testing before breeding them.
Our breeders dogs have a pretty good track record of being 10 - 12+ years (aside from accidents) so that is always reassuring.

 

[BG1]

It is possible but even when the parents have had those health tests it's not a 100% guarantee, but definitely helpful. It's a crap shoot for sure when they don't bother to do the proper testing before breeding them.
Our breeders dogs have a pretty good track record of being 10 - 12+ years (aside from accidents) so that is always reassuring.

Thanks @JanS I know its buried in comments somewhere but may I ask: who are the breeders of your dobes?

 

[JanS]

may I ask: who are the breeders of your dobes?

Sure.

Melrae Dobermans

Home page of Melrae Dobermans, a breeder from Zeeland, MI. AKC CH Dobermans

www.melraedobermans.com

 

[BG1]

Sure.

Melrae Dobermans

Home page of Melrae Dobermans, a breeder from Zeeland, MI. AKC CH Dobermans

www.melraedobermans.com

Thank you! Read good things elsewhere too!
Bookmarked for later research!

 

[dobschroeder]

Thank you @dobschroeder for that list. I've bookmarked it for reference

and may I say its a huge benefit to me as a relative newbie to hear from experienced breeders like you and others here.

If I were to seriously search for another dobe it will be for EU/NA male from a line developed for stable calm temperament and drive, proofed by at minimum WAE or BH or ZTP, and some working type sport, health tested DCM free both sides not just "DNA" but echo/holter OFA advanced, plus copper storage and thyroid good, documented Cause of Death: over ten years lifespan.

Is that even possible or is that a unicorn?
I've asked elsewhere and its been...(crickets).

There is one US breeder that imports from all over the world, proofed by wins in AKC and UDC, judging for years. Are you familiar with Kansadobe?

The breeders I mentioned all perform all the necessary checks on their dogs, including temperament tests.

I've never had any problems disclosing the cause of death of my dogs; I don't see anything wrong with it. I understand that performing autopsies is often difficult because nobody wants to see their dog dissected, but in case of sudden death, I consider it extremely useful.

No, I don't know Kansadobe, although to be honest, I know very few kennels in America.

 

[Ravenbird]

f I were to seriously search for another dobe it will be for EU/NA male from a line developed for stable calm temperament and drive, proofed by at minimum WAE or BH or ZTP, and some working type sport, health tested DCM free both sides not just "DNA" but echo/holter OFA advanced, plus copper storage and thyroid good, documented Cause of Death: over ten years lifespan.

Is that even possible or is that a unicorn?

When you say a line developed for stable calm temperament & drive with a WAE/BH or ZTP & some type of sport, you are referring to the sire & dam of the litter? And that they would both test normal on that years Holter & Echo, and the DNA would show clear on CS and Thyroid? And just me, but also if one parent is a vWD carrier the other parent should be clear. Actually this sounds like many of the working line breeders in the US. We've already got a thread on some of those highly regarded breeders, but both of them have active pet home breedings, with supposedly not as strong/intense temperament for protection lines. Since CS test was just recently added, older dogs may not have that test. My dog is 6 and it wasn't available when I got her Embark and from what I understand, I have to get the whole package to test for it? COD - so now you're treading into the hard part. Breeder owns the dam, say she's 4 years old - hopefully both her sire and dam are still alive at about 8 - 10 years old? If not they should know the COD of your pups maternal g-parents. Since there is no mandatory COD, or even reporting a death at all, this information is all on the honor system. Even when it's printed up on Dobequest, unless it has a "verified" by the COD, it is all just whatever they report.

I see those Euro kennels known for early DCM on the pedigrees dot ru and so many say bloat or accident at age 3, 4, or 5. What can you do, except once again, take longevity into the picture.

 

[JanS]

Since there is no mandatory COD, or even reporting a death at all, this information is all on the honor system. Even when it's printed up on Dobequest, unless it has a "verified" by the COD, it is all just whatever they report.

And I have personally seen it happen. I know for fact through a friend that the dog passed from DCM but if I remember right this breeder listed it as "unknown".

 

[BG1]

When you say a line developed for stable calm temperament & drive with a WAE/BH or ZTP & some type of sport, you are referring to the sire & dam of the litter? And that they would both test normal on that years Holter & Echo, and the DNA would show clear on CS and Thyroid? And just me, but also if one parent is a vWD carrier the other parent should be clear. Actually this sounds like many of the working line breeders in the US. We've already got a thread on some of those highly regarded breeders, but both of them have active pet home breedings, with supposedly not as strong/intense temperament for protection lines. Since CS test was just recently added, older dogs may not have that test. My dog is 6 and it wasn't available when I got her Embark and from what I understand, I have to get the whole package to test for it? COD - so now you're treading into the hard part. Breeder owns the dam, say she's 4 years old - hopefully both her sire and dam are still alive at about 8 - 10 years old? If not they should know the COD of your pups maternal g-parents. Since there is no mandatory COD, or even reporting a death at all, this information is all on the honor system. Even when it's printed up on Dobequest, unless it has a "verified" by the COD, it is all just whatever they report.

I see those Euro kennels known for early DCM on the pedigrees dot ru and so many say bloat or accident at age 3, 4, or 5. What can you do, except once again, take longevity into the picture.

All good points and thank you as a reminder to check that working breeder thread.

Yes, Embark has been noting markers for Copper Disease for at least a year, along with 8 other dobe specific conditions. (And I see Wisdom has just added it too). I believe you can order the test as a one-off from VGL also, for less than the bundle.

Copper Disease is a big deal in labs and above average in dobes. So Liver and thyroid blood tests are on the annual Wellness checklist for us, plus some moderate diet restriction, changed to a lower copper Inukshik (and no more Costco beef liver treats) just to be proactive for the accumulating marker, which as you point out is not proof it WILL show up.

If anyone is interested I can share some more studies, podcasts, food maker and researcher emails etc on copper storage, as a "health plan" in a new post.

 

[Ravenbird]

Yes, Embark has been noting markers for Copper Disease for at least a year, along with 8 other dobe specific conditions. (And I see Wisdom has just added it too). I believe you can order the test as a one-off from VGL also, for less than the bundle.

Asha was clear on every single test except ALT activity with one variant. This was in 2020.



The 4 "breed relevant" they listed are DINGS, DCM1. DCM2. and vWD. I'll have to go to the website to see what else might have been added. Mine says total of 197 tests - what does yours say (yours was very recent, right?)