Reputable Euro Breeders

[ArgoKD]

Are there any euro dobie breeders who do not use Del Nasi, Altobello, or Pride of Russia as their foundation line, or who have intentionally diversified to decrease their genetic influence?

I prefer euro to American build, but want health prioritized over a hyper type selling point. I do not at all like spindly backyard American types, and a show line American type would be wasted on me- I have no desire to show and care nothing of titles.This will be a beloved family dog and my companion. Less importantly, a deterrent- our city is known for crime and my husband travels a great deal, so my children and I are home by ourselves often.

My second dobie and now my breed for life. I just lost my beloved 11 year old to DCM and have been privileged enough to have my once-in-a-lifetime already.

Any guidance you have on responsible euro breeders would be greatly appreciated! Willing to travel anywhere in the U.S. Thank you!

This is my heart and soul, now gone. Argo left the biggest shoes to fill.

 

[Ravenbird]

I'm sorry for the loss of your Argo. 11 is just about as good as you'll ever be able to hope for, and truly, DCM at age 11 is not the same as DCM at age 4 or 5, which the kennels you name are known to produce.

The photo you present doesn't seem to be a heavy Euro type, nor a "spindly" dog. What is his pedigree? Where did he come from? What was his temperament like? The dogs that are hyper-types with Dane-like heads and 100+ pounds are not healthy.

The working line dogs in America are mostly European lines, but not the show/pet lines that you listed.

American working line breeders (bite-sport dogs) tend to diversify more in their lines that the American show line breeders who rely heavily on tight breeding to produce a look they want in the show ring. These dogs are getting a bit heavier with more bone, but the lack of diversity in the pedigrees honestly scares me, but that's just me. I strongly believe lack of diversity is a major contributor to the health problems.

If you are up to a higher than average energy and can give your new dog lots of training and put up with a pushy dog I can suggest some working line breeders. If you're wanting to do sports (doesn't have to be bite sports) these dogs will excel at anything you point them to, but physical and mental challenges are recommended. If you want a more laid back dog that's quiet around the house, but still active, I would say you need to look more into the show lines.

Welcome to Doberman Chat - lots of great discussions here about show vs sport dogs and diversity and health.

 

[ArgoKD]

Thank you for your kind reply My husband and I were young naive kids when we got Argo, and we missed so many red flags and didn’t at all know what to look for in a breeder. I think all of the information on his breeding and health testing was falsified. Despite the shadowy circumstances of his breeding and kennel, he ended up being more than I could ever ask for. We never had any health problems until age related things and ultimately DCM at the end. He was a healthy 82 lbs, sturdy, well proportioned, beautifully kind temperament. We got incredibly lucky given how naive and stupid we were about the breed and responsible breeding at the time. Grateful we had the privilege of such a wonderful boy, but don’t want to make the same mistakes again; and I love dobies too much to support kennels like the one he came from now.

 

[Ravenbird]

I'm still a little confused at what you are wanting and not wanting when looking for a breeder?

He was a healthy 82 lbs, sturdy, well proportioned, beautifully kind temperament.

This sounds like typical American bred dogs - the show lines these days contain a lot of South American lines, the working lines quickly trace to European, but are not "show euro" lines, more German usually.

I learned a lot, some of it too late, what I would and would not want in my next dog, but physically/looks I don't think I could improve her. I do like a lean dog with power and agility over just big. Your male at 82 lbs sounds just fine. I'm not at all impressed by larger sizes in looks or for health reasons.

 

[Ddski5]

Are you choosing the Euro more because of the physical looks? because your description of what you want is generally more of an American Doberman imo.

It’s funny…I say that but somebody on Facebook ask the same question and I gave the same reply. I got crucified from many people saying their Doberman was European and is the most laid back chill Doberman they’ve e ever had…even more than multiple Americans they know. In which I find that very hard to believe if they claim that’s the European norm.

 

[JanS]

Welcome from Minnesota and I'm sorry about your loss.

and a show line American type would be wasted on me- I have no desire to show and care nothing of titles.This will be a beloved family dog and my companion.

Many show breeders usually have a pet quality pup in each litter so you wouldn't be wasting your time. I'm not a fan of the dainty looking American lines either, but some keep them looking like a Doberman was intended to look. The current Dobermans we have are South American bred and I like the balance they have between the NA and Euro.

I'm not sure where you are but there are lots of reputable breeders who do all of the health testing and titling here in the US.

 

[Ravenbird]

Are you choosing the Euro more because of the physical looks? because your description of what you want is generally more of an American Doberman imo.

It’s funny…I say that but somebody on Facebook ask the same question and I gave the same reply. I got crucified from many people saying their Doberman was European and is the most laid back chill Doberman they’ve e ever had…even more than multiple Americans they know. In which I find that very hard to believe if they claim that’s the European norm.

I'm about to decide that American & Euros of any line can be more laid back than expected or "more dog" than expected. As you have said, Ragnar was just an American show bred dog, but he was a chunk in build and a temperament to test you! The physical looks of your two are opposite as well, but if I remember correctly their pedigrees were not similar. Lots of times in Thoroughbred horses you can look at pedigrees and say "ah, I know where that trait came from", but I'm not experienced in that with Dobermans.

 

[GennyB]

I'm about to decide that American & Euros of any line can be more laid back than expected

TRUTH!
I've had Am bred and Euro and they are basicly the same dog. Each have quirks of their own as well as assets but a crap shoot as far as energy levels.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Ravenbird says it well up above.

I will add, however: My last Dobe was full Euro working line. My Dobe before him was working line as well, but 1/2 Euro blood and 1/2 non-Euro. If you look at pics and videos of Dobes from the serious working line breeders in the US, you will see they are not impressive looking. They lack elegance, largely don't meet breed standard conformation, and are on the small. slight end. They are built for speed, agility, explosiveness and in terms of temperament, they are intense and not easy to live with. They can be extra nervous and neurotic – this, in a breed that already possesses those qualities. They do, though, have the ability to full-mouth bite with no training.

Both of the above working-line Dobes died in their 8th year. The more recent of them was bred with health in mind, but still died at 8.

That said, Ravenbird's Dobe, Asha, is beautiful. I think maybe Asha has some show-line blood in her.

I very much agree with you on the spindly look. I don't like it at all.

I would not write off show (conformation) line. A good confo. breeder will health test, and place non-show quality dogs with buyers who do not intend to show. The only thing is, they will only sell you limited registration and they will require you to spay/neuter. If they require the altering before the age of 18 months, that is not good for a dog's health, though. Heads up: Confo. breeders are often very hard to get a reply from, and notoriously just blow your inquiry off.

My first Dobe was my once in a lifetime dog, and actually was from a hobby breeder who simply bred their two Dobes that had papers. He didn't meet the breed standard physically, but was amazing. He was 28" at withers, and 95 lbs. and not fat– solid build. He still had annoying Dobe qualities, but was a very good pet, and we achieved some amazing things together. He, too, died at 8.

So yeah. The "Total Doberman" has been a moniker breeders have strived for decades to live up to, but in my experience, almost nobody has.

I am intrigued by the lines JanS and Rits have – the SA lines. I'd like to see more males from those lines. Their females are not overly spindly, but the female Dobe is just not large enough for me.

Believe me, during the course of my 5 year dog/breeder search (which is documented on here) I sometimes thought: Man, maybe I should just buy a big, powerful looking Euro confo.-line Dobe – hopefully with as much health testing done on parentage as possible – and enjoy his beautiful intimidating looks while hoping it lives a healthy life at least until age 8.

 

[BGpa]

@ArgoKD Sorry for your loss.
I have a byb na/eu female as first dobe, now 2.5 years old and I've done a fair amount of training for ME to get the most out of her, inc DIY Service Dog underway.
I'm experienced in dogs having had many in my biblical 3 score and ten, mostly rescues.
So I am still a dobe noob, learning the basics of the breed largely reading books, webforums and dobe specific sites like DPCA and UDC.

For doing homework I'd start at the beginning and then visualize the desired end state.

I recommend you prioritize by your desired NEED characteristics:
1. If you want longevity, go to DPCA and read up on longevity project and how thats recorded in pedigree on DobeQuest.
2. If you want well bred to purpose, for show dogs, look at DPCA and AKC results in the regional and national shows and then contact those breeders. DPCA maintains a breeder referral list.
3. If you want working lines, go to UDC and do same.
4. If you want a family pet good with kids, ask about temperamrnt and stability. (Some working lines are notorious for problems that actually require behavioral euthanasis...Kimbertal comes to mind from reading comments. Other breeders did well in past but age out, or other issues arise- EIS in the recent thread for example. So its a lot of work but worth it to do your homework.

5. Go to shows and trials in your region and just hang out and watch. Collect phone numbers and cards for follow up later as breeders and their handlers and dogs are very busy during the show/trials circuit and hard to get ahold of until thats over.
6. If you cant travel, watch for show organizers posting youtubes after or live streams during show. Then check scheduke for who that was-dig snd breeder and followup as above.

(Btw, Jsn I hope its ok to mention
There is another doberman webforum thats mostly show oriented but you can read posts on similar questions. Kansa Dobermans in kansas has won over the years on both show and working trials and if you read all their posts you'll get some good advice.

For some reason the mods at "another board" are touchy about referring to this place Dobetman Chat,
as I have been spanked for giving same advice: "read widely"..,
(dont ask me why, and dont care, gossip is pointless to me, but its human nature...)

but I suspect many readers like you and I who are looking for expert advice frequent both lurking if not posting, as there are many knowledgeable folk on both sides, and the sites complement, not compete for content and eyeballs IMHO.

I hope its fair to characterize "DC as more working", and ""another board" as more show..."

The point being the health of the breed is a shared concern as is "how to find a breeder" who can explain what they are doing in their lines, and document by pedigree, performance in titles, and health testing.

If you browse past threads in both forums you'll start to know who is who in the zoo, and give more weight to those with the experience and expertise that matches your need, with a long timeline of past comments and that helps give you a foundation and deeper context to better evaluate the more shallow but wide recent marketing hype on social media like FakeBook, IG, TikTok.

Good luck and keep asking questions- lots of really knowledgeable people in both and there are no dumb questions!

 

[BGpa]

TRUTH!
I've had Am bred and Euro and they are basicly the same dog. Each have quirks of their own as well as assets but a crap shoot as far as energy levels.

+1 I notice the AKC and FCI size standards are very similar, as to confirmation.
The AWDF Nationals for working trials were dominated by Mals but as @Ravenbird noted in her post on that, the best scoring dobe did VERY well for the breed and that dogs nickmame is itsy-biitsy for its relatively small agile size.
Kind of like Mals vs big heavy GSDs...I prefer a more athletic dog over a big slug, for health and longevity reasons alone. If I wanted a big headed think skinned big dog I'd just get a Dane.
I want something closer to the original bred to purpose man protector, and overly long swan necks are prone to injury in a real world family pet Guardian defensive situation.

 

[Ravenbird]

You've given some great advice @BG1 - You can only learn by reading EVERYthing, not just "listening to what you want to hear".

 

[remy]

Instead of looking at it as American vs Euro dogs, I would look into specific pedigrees and see what types of dogs they produce. There are some Euro lines in the US that I find more refined (less bone & substance) than some American showlines.

My dog is similar size to the one you had, but he’s an American showline. He’s 80lbs and around 27-28” at the withers. I get asked frequently on social media if he is European lol. I guess because he has more substance than people think typical American dogs do?

I am intrigued by the lines JanS and Rits have – the SA lines. I'd like to see more males from those lines. Their females are not overly spindly, but the female Dobe is just not large enough for me.

Remy is essentially the same lines as their dogs. His breeder got her foundation bitch from their breeder. @JanS Elroy’s sire was produced by Remy’s breeder. His sire is related to Remy on both sides (Cruz’s sire is Remy’s great grandsire, and his dam is Remy’s granddam lol).

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Remy is essentially the same lines as their dogs. His breeder got her foundation bitch from their breeder. @JanS Elroy’s sire was produced by Remy’s breeder. His sire is related to Remy on both sides (Cruz’s sire is Remy’s great grandsire, and his dam is Remy’s granddam lol).

He is very good looking! Thank you for posting!

 

[JanS]

Elroy’s sire was produced by Remy’s breeder. His sire is related to Remy on both sides (Cruz’s sire is Remy’s great grandsire, and his dam is Remy’s granddam

I didn't know that. Elroy definitely has that substantial look too but he's not even 3 yet so I'm sure he has more maturing to do.

 

[BGpa]

Instead of looking at it as American vs Euro dogs, I would look into specific pedigrees and see what types of dogs they produce. There are some Euro lines in the US that I find more refined (less bone & substance) than some American showlines.

My dog is similar size to the one you had, but he’s an American showline. He’s 80lbs and around 27-28” at the withers. I get asked frequently on social media if he is European lol. I guess because he has more substance than people think typical American dogs do? View attachment 154524

Remy is essentially the same lines as their dogs. His breeder got her foundation bitch from their breeder. @JanS Elroy’s sire was produced by Remy’s breeder. His sire is related to Remy on both sides (Cruz’s sire is Remy’s great grandsire, and his dam is Remy’s granddam lol).

Good point. The best breeders for longevity (as an example of a trait to seek out, depending on priority...)
are mixing in strains from dogs with that documented by pedigree. Its less about labels, and I note one longtime US breeder has brought in german dobe, South American and I read there are dobes in Australia too.

The Longevity Project on DPCA gives some background and I notice there are studies under way at U of MN, Utrecht U in the Netherlands, Cornell and a couple others but it takes time and tracking down Cause of Death for generations so its very much an anecdotal, insider thing among breeders and that takes time to gather info...(imho)

 

[JanS]

I notice there are studies under way at U of MN

Both of these dogs are in that one, the disappearing Doberman project and they study for the life of the dogs. We also enrolled in the Netherlands one but it took so long to get the test kit that I had gone ahead and did the Embark test in the meantime. They did follow up on Phoebe when we lost her so young but after that I really haven't heard much about it.

 

[remy]

I didn't know that. Elroy definitely has that substantial look too but he's not even 3 yet so I'm sure he has more maturing to do.

I always hear they still mature a lot between 2 and 3 or 4 years old. Remy will be 2.5 in a few weeks so it will be interesting to see how him and Elroy look in another year or two.

 

[BGpa]

You've given some great advice @BG1 - You can only learn by reading EVERYthing, not just "listening to what you want to hear".

Thanks @Ravenbird
You are an example of one I would suggest to every new reader lurking or not to
"just go back in time and read everything @Ravenbird"
Appreciate you and everyone else for sharing so kindly and graciously.

 

[bovalcone]

Hello @ArgoKD ,​

In my breeding program, I try to avoid dogs from the kennels you mentioned and generally from popular (show) lines.
I am trying to promote genetic diversity and healthy lines, using dogs from some of the best European kennels, which have the same goals as mine. Of course, the testing is also important for us.​

We currently have a valuable litter in these terms, you can check it here:

https://www.facebook.com/BoValconeDobermannKennel/posts/pfbid027WFQcJYp4Reh4Gg7cSECHLcesteW1FVHRK7om8ngaV1ntf46Y1TmsE17spAEm6qJl

​