Questions re cropping viewed as cruelty or not

[SmtmsAlwys]

Hi, all. I'm new here. Please forgive me as I wasn't really planning on posting as I don't yet have a Dobie, though I'm strongly considering getting one and have been learning quite a bit by just lurking. Even so, I've been left with questions that I'm just not really finding the answers to, if I may.

Growing up, my parents always had Dobermans. I have vague memories of the one we got when I was young having her ears cropped by my parents (via their vet). I remember asking questions and was told that "it looks better" and that my parents "like it better". The reason for the tail crop was that if it wasn't cropped, then she'd wind up beating us with her tail.

Fast forward some years where I heard so many things about how cruel it is to do it so I believed the claims. Now I'm seeing so many posts here where people do crop their dogs and, I can't imagine that so many people would be doing such if it were actually cruel to the dog.

*For those that have cropped their dogs ears/tail, is it strictly a looks thing, or does it serve another purpose?
*For those that didn't crop, was it because you found it cruel, or were there other reasons?
*Are there any real advantages to cropping them vs not?

I'm just currently in my research phase and trying to learn everything there is to learn before making a decision on anything. Thank you for all who answer!

 

[JanS]

Welcome from Minnesota!

Cropping and docking is the breed standard and it is in no way cruel like some of the animal activists are trying to state. The docked tail is in part so a predator can't grab them by the tail to try to take them down, not to mention I have heard of lots of cases where they get them slammed in a door or just hurt them and they can get broken.

For those that didn't crop, was it because you found it cruel, or were there other reasons?

I think the main reason a lot don't crop and dock is because it's illegal in their country or they rescued them at too old an age for you to be able to get the ears to stand.

Most reputable breeders have them cropped and docked before they are sent home since they have a reliable vet to do a nice job. Another reason they want them done is in case the buyer winds up returning the pup, it's much easier to rehome a c/d pup than it is a natural one.

 

[SmtmsAlwys]

Welcome from Minnesota!

Cropping and docking is the breed standard and it is in no way cruel like some of the animal activists are trying to state. The docked tail is in part so a predator can't grab them by the tail to try to take them down, not to mention I have heard of lots of cases where they get them slammed in a door or just hurt them and they can get broken.

I think the main reason a lot don't crop and dock is because it's illegal in their country or they rescued them at too old an age for you to be able to get the ears to stand.

Most reputable breeders have them cropped and docked before they are sent home since they have a reliable vet to do a nice job. Another reason they want them done is in case the buyer winds up returning the pup, it's much easier to rehome a c/d pup than it is a natural one.

Thanks for the warm welcome as well as answering my questions/concerns. The reasons you give make sense. There's definite concern about predators as we live out in the country and do have issues from time to time.

I wasn't aware that breeders had it done; I thought they left it up to the new owner. Is that a good way to tell if a breeder is reputable or not?

 

[JanS]

Is that a good way to tell if a breeder is reputable or not?

It doesn't tell you everything you need to know but it's definitely a good start. As you start your search for a pup feel free to ask all of the questions you might have and if you find a breeder you like, run them past us and we can help you out.
One of our members in IN has an occasional litter and she is excellent.

 

[Ladydi]

It depends on what you are wanting to do with your dog.
Dobermans with long tails can definitely clear a room.
Tough tails that act like a whip!
Tail docking and removal of dew claws should be done by the breeder.
You do not want to have to deal with with tail docking later in the dogs life to many complications can arise.
As far as the ears I have owned both…with and without cropped ears.
With cropped ears it’s important to have a reputable breeder co-ordinate that care with a professional before you take possession of the puppy.
Ear Cropping is a special art not to be preformed by just any vet.
Your breeder will have someone they regularly use for this procedure.
Just know with cropped ears you will need to learn how to post the ears…so check out videos on Dobermans Ear Posting to make sure you are ready for this process.
Ear Posting can require 6 to 8 months of your daily care.
Natural ears not so much work but sometimes those floppy ears can stand upward at bit.
Me personally I like cropped ears and willing to put in the work.
With ears cropped and standing at attention other hoo-mans will willingly walk to the other side of he road.

 

[BGpa]

Welcome!

Here is a good explanation of history of "why". There are practical functional advantages to crop and dock (and dewclaw removal).

The Real Reason Dobermans Have Their Tails Docked

I've had one C/D and a second natural ears, tail docked. I like the looks both ways.

The old idea waa If the tail is not docked very early before the nerve sheath develops, its less painful then amputation later...
creates "phantom limb pain" that can cause the dog to be unuseable (talking to USAF kennel master once on adopting a Mal that had an amputated tail and just spun chasing the pain...) if injury happens in an active adventurous life with a young owner. Read more on that and think about your functional needs, and be sure the breeder and vet are clear on what is involved as doing it right and after care is important.

It was common back in the 1800s and still valid today to crop and dock certain breeds to functional purpose. If its done properly it is considered humane.

There are practical advantages to the "scary big black dog" meme that went around on social media a couple years ago, including more accurate initial perception of the guardian aspect, by a proper crop that has been tended to until it stands full time. This is a LOT of work for you as the owner...see some of the excellent stories and videos here on how to.

As far as "cruel"- imho that is an emotional term often used to shut down debate. You can find plenty of that in various social media environments where the motive is not about the dogs...

Good job thinking for yourself and doing your homework, first. These dogs are not cheap or easy keepers, so if this is your first dog, read on here in the archives...its a gold mine.

 

[SmtmsAlwys]

It depends on what you are wanting to do with your dog.
Dobermans with long tails can definitely clear a room.
Tough tails that act like a whip!
Tail docking and removal of dew claws should be done by the breeder.
You do not want to have to deal with with tail docking later in the dogs life to many complications can arise.
As far as the ears I have owned both…with and without cropped ears.
With cropped ears it’s important to have a reputable breeder co-ordinate that care with a professional before you take possession of the puppy.
Ear Cropping is a special art not to be preformed by just any vet.
Your breeder will have someone they regularly use for this procedure.
Just know with cropped ears you will need to learn how to post the ears…so check out videos on Dobermans Ear Posting to make sure you are ready for this process.
Ear Posting can require 6 to 8 months of your daily care.
Natural ears not so much work but sometimes those floppy ears can stand upward at bit.
Me personally I like cropped ears and willing to put in the work.
With ears cropped and standing at attention other hoo-mans will willingly walk to the other side of he road.

So, I'm wanting a dog who will be a protective family dog. We do live out in the country a bit and have had issues with coyotes, raccoons, etc. My ideal dog would mostly be in the house (especially at night) but some time outside both with and without the kids. Now I'm thinking that the tail wouldn't be a great idea, though.

The posting of the ears is a little confusing to me. Is that something that's always been a thing? I only remember my dog having her ears bandaged for awhile before they were removed. I don't remember seeing my parents do anything otherwise. That would have been the early 80s.

I must confess, I'm not opposed to things that make a dog look more intimidating....

 

[BGpa]

Welcome!

Here is a good explanation of history of "why". There are practical functional advantages to crop and dock (and dewclaw removal).

The Real Reason Dobermans Have Their Tails Docked

I've had one C/D and a second natural ears, tail docked. I like the looks both ways.

The old idea waa If the tail is not docked very early before the nerve sheath develops, its less painful then amputation later...
creates "phantom limb pain" that can cause the dog to be unuseable (talking to USAF kennel master once on adopting a Mal that had an amputated tail and just spun chasing the pain...) if injury happens in an active adventurous life with a young owner. Read more on that and think about your functional needs, and be sure the breeder and vet are clear on what is involved as doing it right and after care is important.

It was common back in the 1800s and still valid today to crop and dock certain breeds to functional purpose. If its done properly it is considered humane.

There are practical advantages to the "scary big black dog" meme that went around on social media a couple years ago, including more accurate initial perception of the guardian aspect, by a proper crop that has been tended to until it stands full time. This is a LOT of work for you as the owner...see some of the excellent stories and videos here on how to.

As far as "cruel"- imho that is an emotional term often used to shut down debate. You can find plenty of that in various social media environments where the motive is not about the dogs...

Good job thinking for yourself and doing your homework, first. These dogs are not cheap or easy keepers, so if this is your first dog, read on here in the archives...its a gold mine.

Here is more on tail docking:

https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/animal-health-and-welfare/animal-welfare/tail-docking-dogs

 

[BGpa]

And more on cropping:

Ear Cropping in Dogs: Regulations, Risks, and Costs

Ear cropping is banned in many places and opposed by major vet groups. Here’s what you should know about the risks, recovery, costs, and legal status before considering it.

legalclarity.org

 

[BGpa]

So, I'm wanting a dog who will be a protective family dog. We do live out in the country a bit and have had issues with coyotes, raccoons, etc. My ideal dog would mostly be in the house (especially at night) but some time outside both with and without the kids. Now I'm thinking that the tail wouldn't be a great idea, though.

The posting of the ears is a little confusing to me. Is that something that's always been a thing? I only remember my dog having her ears bandaged for awhile before they were removed. I don't remember seeing my parents do anything otherwise. That would have been the early 80s.

I must confess, I'm not opposed to things that make a dog look more intimidating....

Dobes are very good with kids, properly raised.
Finding the right breeder is hugely important.
One thing I'd highly recommend is a book on dobermans. That will help you frame your understanding with context to ask more good questions here.

There are many, some in ebook,
and I defer to those more experienced forum members here: especially the Moms with kids, young or grown up with them, to give tips on a good one for a beginner.

 

[JanS]

I only remember my dog having her ears bandaged for awhile before they were removed. I don't remember seeing my parents do anything otherwise. That would have been the early 80s.

The bandaging really doesn't happen much anymore since it's better to leave the edges exposed as they heal. Posting is a totally different thing you do after the edges are completely healed to get the ears standing in the correct stance. It seems intimidating the first couple times you do it but I find it a great bonding experience with the pup and it makes it easier for nail trims and everything else after the fact.

Here are a couple how to threads on posting.

Thread 'How to Post Cropped Ears (Video)'

Jan 11, 2013

Finally had the chance to make this. Hope it is helpful to those new to posting ears. Feedback is appreciated.

• Marinegeekswife
• Replies: 75
• Forum: Doberman Puppies

• 
• 
• 

Thread 'Doberman ear posting - improved method'

Sep 1, 2011

Doberman ear posting - improved method

Over the years I’ve been tweaking the basic backer rod method and this way of doing it is by far the most effective and easiest of anything I’ve tried, so now that we have a new pup for a model (thank you Albert), I wanted to put a tutorial together for the rest of you.
This is not only a minimal tape method, but it also makes for stress free post changing for you and your pup and no loss of hair on the backs of the ears. This method also does not require the tedious back taping that many require and makes for a much smoother and stable post...

• JanS
• Replies: 260
• Forum: Doberman Puppies

• 
• 

 

[Gelcoater]

Hi, all. I'm new here. Please forgive me as I wasn't really planning on posting as I don't yet have a Dobie, though I'm strongly considering getting one and have been learning quite a bit by just lurking. Even so, I've been left with questions that I'm just not really finding the answers to, if I may.

Growing up, my parents always had Dobermans. I have vague memories of the one we got when I was young having her ears cropped by my parents (via their vet). I remember asking questions and was told that "it looks better" and that my parents "like it better". The reason for the tail crop was that if it wasn't cropped, then she'd wind up beating us with her tail.

Fast forward some years where I heard so many things about how cruel it is to do it so I believed the claims. Now I'm seeing so many posts here where people do crop their dogs and, I can't imagine that so many people would be doing such if it were actually cruel to the dog.

*For those that have cropped their dogs ears/tail, is it strictly a looks thing, or does it serve another purpose?
*For those that didn't crop, was it because you found it cruel, or were there other reasons?
*Are there any real advantages to cropping them vs not?

I'm just currently in my research phase and trying to learn everything there is to learn before making a decision on anything. Thank you for all who answer!

Welcome from California!
Lots of very experienced folks on this site.
After reading through the thread all I can add is…
A cropped and docked Doberman is more intimidating looks wise vs one not.

As to the whys there, in addition to what has already been said, a couple more reasons.
A bad guy that gets in a tangle with a cropped and docked dog has less to grab ahold of to try and toss the dog. No tail sticking out there to grab, less ear to grab.

The cropped ears. Think about it like this. Have you ever seen a wild canine with floppy ears? Think Coyote, wolf, dingo, etc.
All have erect ears.
Sound hits their ear drum without being muffled by a flopped over ear. And? They can point them.

All 3 of mine over the years were docked tails, natural ears. The first was the only one we got as a puppy and just didn’t elect to do it. If I knew them what I know now she would have been cropped.
The other two came to us as at least a year old and the cropping window had closed long ago.

What ever you do? Don’t let them around your kids.


Especially the ones with special needs.


Next thing you know?
You tell that dog to do something?
It looks to the kid to see if they approve of the command
Just kidding.
Sorta.

 

[DD4MSpock]

Welcome from Tampa Bay. FL! Like you, I currently don't have a dobie because I'm concerned with FL Homeowner Insurance policies that put dobermans on their "Dangerous Breed" list and prohibit them. Now, my own insurance co has no such dangerous breed list (it's a national company), but I don't know how long I can keep them of if they'll bail on FL. That could happen at any time, and I'd be forced to re-home the dog if I had to change Insurers. THat said, I fondly remember the dobies I had as a child, and the main one is "Mr. Spock" my avatar.

 

[Nordika]

*For those that have cropped their dogs ears/tail, is it strictly a looks thing, or does it serve another purpose?

Multi-purpose. Cropped ears and docked tails are part of the breed identity. A black silhouette of a cropped and docked Doberman is easily identifiable as a Doberman. This is not true of an uncropped and undocked Doberman. So if you are looking for a threat/crime deterrent, you are safer with cropped/docked. Because the breed has always been cropped/docked, the shape, length and type of ears/tail has never been a consideration in breeding in the US.

Prick-ears are the natural state of ancestoral wild canids. Prick-eared dogs generally have superior hearing capabilities compared to those with floppy ears. The upright, pointed shape of prick ears functions like a natural ear trumpet, efficiently collecting and funneling sound waves directly into the ear canal, which allows for better sound localization and the detection of quieter noises from greater distances. Prick-eared dogs can independently swivel their ears to pinpoint sound sources with high precision, a mobility often restricted by the weight of floppy ears.

In contrast, floppy ears can slightly impede hearing by acting as a muffler or physical obstruction to incoming sound waves. Floppy ears are more susceptible to ear infections. This increased susceptibility is due to the ear flap blocking airflow and trapping moisture, heat, and debris inside the ear canal. This warm, dark environment creates an ideal breeding ground for bacteria and yeast, leading to conditions like otitis externa.
Ear infections in dogs can cause a range of damage, escalating from the outer ear inward if left untreated. You can consider ear cropping as putting the ears into the more favorable and natural canine position and risk reduction for:

Ear canal damage: Chronic inflammation causes the canal walls to thicken, scar, and eventually calcify — turning flexible cartilage into rigid, bone-like tissue. This permanently narrows the canal and traps even more bacteria, making future infections harder to treat. Otic mineralization: Repeated infections cause the canal to harden over time, sometimes requiring surgical removal of the ear canal (TECA) as the only option.

Eardrum rupture: Bacterial toxins and pressure from infected debris can weaken and rupture the eardrum (tympanic membrane), allowing infection to flood into the middle ear.

Hearing loss: Once infection reaches the middle or inner ear, it can damage the cochlea, resulting in permanent, irreversible deafness in the affected ear.

Aural hematoma: Vigorous head shaking and scratching can rupture blood vessels in the ear flap, causing a painful, swollen blood-filled mass. If untreated, it can heal into a permanent "cauliflower ear" deformity, and often requires surgery.

Nerve damage: The facial nerve and sympathetic nerve fibers run through or adjacent to the middle ear. Infection can damage them, causing facial paralysis (drooping lip, inability to blink) or Horner's syndrome (drooping eyelid, sunken eye).

Vestibular (balance) damage: Inner ear infection affects the vestibular apparatus, causing a persistent head tilt, loss of balance, dizziness, nausea, and walking in circles — sometimes permanently.

Osteomyelitis: Infection can spread to the surrounding bone, causing a bone infection that is very difficult to treat.

Rare but severe: In extreme cases, a severe inner ear infection can spread to the brainstem (the part of the brain controlling breathing and heart rate), though this is quite rare.

Cropping the ears of puppies today is done properly by experienced and skilled veterinarians, with pain management and aftercare. It is no more cruel as bringing a child to an orthodontist for braces on their teeth.

Tail docking, done shortly after birth, aside from breed identity and working dog identity (historically working dogs exempted owners from certain taxes), docking is usually done on breeds that have very thin tails that are prone to injury. It's a preventative measure so the dog's tail doesn't get injured later in life which is extremely painful and can lead to serious complications.

Most reputable breeders in the US have their Doberman puppies cropped and docked by their selected veterinarians in accordance with the AKC breed standard. These procedures should already be done before you pick up your puppy, if they are not, you are not dealing with a good reputable preservation breeder.

 

[BGpa]

There it is...

I'll just add that part of BYB Bonnies functional job is as point man for me and BW on trail hikes, and I've trained Bonnie to range ahead, trailing as is her natural interest but also quick to pause and air scent, or stop when she sees/hears something to evaluate.

Thats a bred in behavior combination, not an aspect of my super-duper-skilz (I'm not a trainer, just had a lot of dogs and trail run with them, observing pro's and con's of the breeds ability to be good hunters and guardian.)

I have trained some fine-tuning to this specifically, including "pause at a fork in trail, before cresting over, and look at me" so I can be in visual contact, give a signal on where to go, or wait, let me lead if its required...
precisely because by observation I can "see" ahead (and hear- being old and around loud noises in a mispent youth around things tgat go boom, my hearing sux....) and expand my situational awareness multifold.

I DONT want her engaging threats- thats my job. I DO want her on my shield side, to keep my sword hand free, if that helps, so a return to side heel stand on recall silently if needed is useful, and if hunting or nature sight seeing to avoid spooking birds, etc anything I want to stalk or just sit with...

She's smart at this as part of the breed building process, that IMHO is unique to dobes, from terrier, mastiff/war dogs, hunting inc nose and sight hound, herding breeds refined for hundreds of years in Europe.

This is why dobes are good estate dogs too, although they need to come inside with their people.

And yes, cant tell you how many kalifeelgoods come up and say "I'm so glad you didnt cut her ears off" ...(as if I care what they think..)...but I just nod and thank them.

But I'll sometimes say "I've had two, one each, and prefer the crop" and watch the expression change...

Some are actually open to learning more on why crop so I tell the the breed origin and functional job story about bred to purpose-

that remains highly useful to young women, families today with a multi-purpose dog thats #5 on Dr Stanley Corens list of dog intelligence (that I'd argue is off a bit: dobes are smarter than GSDs which are wonderful dogs- another candidate, but less adaptable/thoughtful than dobes if you get a good one and training for YOU to bring out the best.

Dobermans aren't dogs, some say.
Thats a stretch but in my long life with a few big dogs, various breeds, mixes and watching a lot along the way...

The biggest Return On Investment, to you and family, IF you put the work in...for a job thats probably the most important to do right if you have a young family.

So again, good job thinking ahead. I'd also highly recommend finding before you chose a pup- a good proven trainer who has worked with dobes. A good breeder can help with this and crop vet sekection and a bunch more, but its important for you to pick up the concepts, terminology and evaluate the trainer based on what you need.

Here is the point and apologies for assuming about you. The training is for you, and so much good thinking has gone into this over the years its going to be a benefit to learn vs recollect what your folks did when you were little.

Best of luck, keep us updated. Its a wonderful journey and your kids will thank you for making them more well rounded people by learning to talk dog. ..dobe, I meant.