Questions re cropping viewed as cruelty or not

[Ravenbird]

I agree with everything already said. Especially regarding cruelty, as @GennyB said, the puppies act like nothing happened. I worked for a vet in the 1980's and he was a very popular one for ear crops on all breeds. I assisted in dozens of the surgeries, and yes, recovery is simply coming out of anesthesia. The litter goes right back to playing, bouncing around etc.

I will say that it is only the trend of longer show crops that takes so long to get to stand. Another thing about choosing a good breeder is that they will choose the puppy that fits your lifestyle, you don't go choose the puppy you want. That said, this is usually determined by 7 weeks or so, before the ear cropping. I asked my breeder early on if they could please do a medium crop on my puppy, not a show crop. Not all breeders will do this, but you could at least ask. The medium, medium-long crop is still longer than what they did in the '80's and what you remember with just a little time before they were done. My Dobe from the 90's was finished & standing before she was 5 months old. I don't think it's all to do with the length as now they remove the bell and that contributed to a ton of support.

My current dog with a requested "medium" crop - but I think it's more of a "medium-long". Posted through age 6 months and used the tape on the tips through 7 - 8 months of age.



Below is my dog born & cropped in 1991, not much shorter really, but the bell at the base gave it a different look and more support to stand quickly. I don't think many vets do this at all anymore due to the style changes.





Hope this helps!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I have to say, @MyBuddy , the photo of Annie there was a nail in the coffin of doubters. It's like a huge exclamation point. BOOM!! Anyway, that's my way of saying she provides a great example of the majestic, alert, bright look of a cropped Doberman.

But yes, as I said, I currently own a non-Dobe dog. He has his ears and tail intact. A couple observations:

Oh, that tail! Now, I will say I actually love his tail. It's quite a thing. Well, not only does it curl in a great nod to his breed heritage, but it is just a big part of him. We are not talking the more thin, whip-like tail of breeds like a Doberman. It's got more fur on it. But yes, that thing is a THUMPER! It is thick and powerful. Many times have we been thumped by it. We don't really mind, and it's good for a laugh. The other day, we came home and he was all waggy excited to see us. He stood there behind a baby gate (yes, we still use baby gates even though he is almost 4 years old and quite large [we have another dog who really necessitates the gates]). As my dog stood there wagging assertively, he was whacking the dishwasher door on one side, and the cabinet doors on the other side of him. THUMP, THWACK! THUMP, THWACK! THUMP, THWACK! THUMP, THWACK!

The ears? To my great relief, they are not overly long. They are not as small looking as a Bullmastif's but they are not too large either. His head size supports them pretty well. I didd very much want to have him cropped, and I found a local vet that would do it after some convincing and showing to her pictures of the very short crop I was talking about (called the Shepherd's Crop – done on Livestock Guardian breeds). The price, however, was going to be $1,100. It had to be a no.



Yet one more reason for cropping, that I have experienced is the amount of noise he my dog (the picture above is not him) makes when he shakes his head! Part of being a guard dog is being able to be as silent as possible when the situation calls for it. I want to get a decibel measuring app if one exists and see how loud it is when Zephyr shakes. It definitely disturbs the peace at night.

 

[LifeofRubie]

The C/D convo is certainly an interesting one. As mentioned, you'd be hard pressed to find a reputable breeder that doesn't C/D (and remove the front dew claws which is always a part of conversation that is often forgotten). At the time of the crop, particularly, a breeder might not know what dog is going to a show home or to a pet home and, as explained, the conformation standard is C/D.

My experience... once your pup is out of ear posts, you will get almost no questions (or judgement) about the process of cropping. It's typically only where they're in the posts that people feel the need to say something because the evidence that anything at all happened was blatantly in front of them.

I was in a conversation once with a woman who was genuinely interested in the decision to crop (when my Dobe was young and posted). Her interpretation was that it was purely cosmetic. She happened to have a couple of kids running around and I flat out asked her if her son was circumsized. She could immediately see where the conversation was going and sat with that for a few moments and thanked me for the healthy conversation and went about her business.

Oh, edit to add: I believe her very young daughters ears may have been pierced, as well?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Here is a pic of my Zephyr from when he was only about 1 year old or a bit younger. He has gotten a bit more impressive looking by now.



and, yes, those ears sometimes do some funny things. Despite being quite thick, I feel they would have stood pretty easily if cropped.
I did not have to tape the ears down but I did worry a lot about them standing out too much to the sides. Yes, I realize now that I have gone back and read just a bit of the "Is cropping purely cosmetic" thread that back then my semi-flippant position was that if you don't crop, then don't bother taping them down. Just let them do whatever they are going to do. But if his were going to stand out too much, I was gonna have to tape them down.

 

[JanS]

I guess another thing that should be mentioned is that even if you leave them natural, they sometimes have to be taped down so they lie flat since they naturally want to come up in this breed.

 

[MyBuddy]

Below is my dog born & cropped in 1991, not much shorter really, but the bell at the base gave it a different look and more support to stand quickly. I don't think many vets do this at all anymore due to the style changes.

Exactly! Our first Doberman was back in 1995 and I have very little recollection of posting that dog! But I know now that that is the difference. The Bell. That base made it stand much easier and faster. But I do like the look of the crops now. Annie's crop is perfect for me. Even to the little flip at the tips, that you can only see from the side. But it does give it a little bit of pizzazz!

You can sort of see it in this View.

 

[BGpa]

Here is a pic of my Zephyr from when he was only about 1 year old or a bit younger. He has gotten a bit more impressive looking by now.

View attachment 163829

and, yes, those ears sometimes do some funny things. Despite being quite thick, I feel they would have stood pretty easily if cropped.
I did not have to tape the ears down but I did worry a lot about them standing out too much to the sides. Yes, I realize now that I have gone back and read just a bit of the "Is cropping purely cosmetic" thread that back then my semi-flippant position was that if you don't crop, then don't bother taping them down. Just let them do whatever they are going to do. But if his were going to stand out too much, I was gonna have to tape them down.

View attachment 163830

That is a handsome dog. Looks like LGD...something...

A Sheperd Crop makes complete functional sense for a dog on the Anatolian highlands independently fighting off wolves...

And now the question is, why dont we see Great Pyrs with crops?

I forget if you ever shared his heritage.
Do a Embark or Wisdom DNA?

One thing I wonder about is the balance and movement of the dobe tail. In the refined dobe natural state being curled over back, relatively skinny, it isn't as mechanically useful, and since a square muscular shape was designed and refined now for 175 years or so for speed, agility, and athleticism WITHOUT the full tail,
then performance of a C/D dog is actually maximized vs natural,
Or against another breed with longer torso, maximized for the advantage of heavier tail balance and leverage...

A longer torso dog with a crop AND heavy tail would make sense structurally...but it wouldn't look as balanced as your pup now, imho.

 

[JanS]

Annie's crop is perfect for me.

I absolutely love the crops that vet did on this litter. I believe she is in St. Louis but she does a fantastic job.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

That is a handsome dog. Looks like LGD...something...

A Sheperd Crop makes complete functional sense for a dog on the Anatolian highlands independently fighting off wolves...

And now the question is, why dont we see Great Pyrs with crops?

I forget if you ever shared his heritage.
Do a Embark or Wisdom DNA?

One thing I wonder about is the balance and movement of the dobe tail. In the refined dobe natural state being curled over back, relatively skinny, it isn't as mechanically useful, and since a square muscular shape was designed and refined now for 175 years or so for speed, agility, and athleticism WITHOUT the full tail,
then performance of a C/D dog is actually maximized vs natural,
Or against another breed with longer torso, maximized for the advantage of heavier tail balance and leverage...

A longer torso dog with a crop AND heavy tail would make sense structurally...but it wouldn't look as balanced as your pup now, imho.

Thank you!

You pose a question I have not thought about. Why do Great Pyrenees not get cropped ears? I would be speculating. Hmm. I know the modern state of the Pyr is one of it being watered down in terms of working ability. They are excellent at barking – ha. I also understand they they tend to roam instead of staying with their flock. I consider the Pyr to be the Golden Retriever of the LGD world. You actually see a lot of Pyr / Anatolian Shepherd mixes. You also see Pyr blood showing up in many mixed breeds. In fact, my wife's dog that most people think is a small, or puppy Great Dane has some Pyr blood per DNA test. But I don't think the Pyr ever was a cropped breed, even back before popularity watered them down.

I did discuss Zephyr's breed makeup in another thread, and you were part of that discussion, if I recall. What thread was it?

 

[BGpa]

I absolutely love the crops that vet did on this litter. I believe she is in St. Louis but she does a fantastic job.

And thats the most important takeaway for OP imho...
@SmtmsAlwys
most GP vets dont do crops or know anyone, but a good breeder will, and line that experienced crop vet up as part of the litter raising process, and provide pics so you can confirm good work...

 

[BGpa]

Thank you!

You pose a question I have not thought about. Why do Great Pyrenees not get cropped ears? I would be speculating. Hmm. I know the modern state of the Pyr is one of it being watered down in terms of working ability. They are excellent at barking – ha. I also understand they they tend to roam instead of staying with their flock. I consider the Pyr to be the Golden Retriever of the LGD world. You actually see a lot of Pyr / Anatolian Shepherd mixes. You also see Pyr blood showing up in many mixed breeds. In fact, my wife's dog that most people think is a small, or puppy Great Dane has some Pyr blood per DNA test. But I don't think the Pyr ever was a cropped breed, even back before popularity watered them down.

I did discuss Zephyr's breed makeup in another thread, and you were part of that discussion, if I recall. What thread was it?

I thought we were guessing on Cosmo:

Thread 'Wife Is Considering Adopting This Dog!'

Sep 30, 2025

Well, folks, to my surprise, dear wife wants to adopt this puppy that is said to be 4 months old and be a Great Dane mix.

The nearby park we frequent had a small group of people hanging out with their dogs off leash, and one of the women had this cutie on a leash or loose dragging the leash. I was there with Zephyr who was playing with his BFF, a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever. I saw this dog and pointed it out to my younger daughter. I took is for a bully breed and/or American Bulldog mix of some sort.

It wound up that wife and same daughter went back to the park to look for a hair...

• Oh Little Oji
• Replies: 99
• Forum: The Pet Post (Non Doberman)

• 

But hey, I cant remember what I had for breakfast so I hadda use the Search tool...

 

[Nordika]

You pose a question I have not thought about. Why do Great Pyrenees not get cropped ears?

The LGD working style of Pyrs, Kuvasz, Tatra, Bucovina, Raven, Maremma, etc.(too many to mention) is patrol and deter — it gathers the flock, stands guard, and barks to warn off wolves rather than charging in to fight. When the dog spots a wolf, it gathers all the sheep into a group and stands by them, not initiating an attack that would encourage the other members of the pack. That's a deterrence-based style, not the close-quarters engagement style of a Kangal or Caucasian Shepherd.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I thought we were guessing on Cosmo:

Thread 'Wife Is Considering Adopting This Dog!'

Sep 30, 2025

Well, folks, to my surprise, dear wife wants to adopt this puppy that is said to be 4 months old and be a Great Dane mix.

The nearby park we frequent had a small group of people hanging out with their dogs off leash, and one of the women had this cutie on a leash or loose dragging the leash. I was there with Zephyr who was playing with his BFF, a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever. I saw this dog and pointed it out to my younger daughter. I took is for a bully breed and/or American Bulldog mix of some sort.

It wound up that wife and same daughter went back to the park to look for a hair...

• Oh Little Oji
• Replies: 99
• Forum: The Pet Post (Non Doberman)

• 

But hey, I cant remember what I had for breakfast so I hadda use the Search tool...

Oh, I use the search tool too!

My wife's dog, Cosmo, is about 2/3 American Bulldog. Well, actually, the DNA results say "Bulldog" and show a drawing of an English Bulldog (you know, the short, squat, usually rotund dogs) and then it lists American Bulldog. He also has Poodle (not indicated what size, unfortunately), and as stated, some Great Pyrenees, and a few others. I believe one of the lowest percentages listed is Pit Bull at 1 or 2%.

I do forget in which thread I revealed Zephyr's breed makeup, but it is 50% Kangal, 25% Anatolian Shepherd, and 25% mastiff hybrid from the breeding program called Midgard Mastiffs.

 

[BGpa]

Oh, I use the search tool too!

My wife's dog, Cosmo, is about 2/3 American Bulldog. Well, actually, the DNA results say "Bulldog" and show a drawing of an English Bulldog (you know, the short, squat, usually rotund dogs) and then it lists American Bulldog. He also has Poodle (not indicated what size, unfortunately), and as stated, some Great Pyrenees, and a few others. I believe one of the lowest percentages listed is Pit Bull at 1 or 2%.

I do forget in which thread I revealed Zephyr's breed makeup, but it is 50% Kangal, 25% Anatolian Shepherd, and 25% mastiff hybrid from the breeding program called Midgard Mastiffs.

Ok I remember that now.
Looked it up at the time: intriguing!
May have to bring up a couple of the topics in Midguards FAQs later in a new thread. Serious dog geekery science there...

And, Just as an aside, which may also be relevant to OP @SmtmsAlwys
one key aspect of DCF I enjoy is not just the deep expertise on both confo AND working line dobes...rare elsewhere, all by itself, but the big the bonus is hearing from people with experience and knowledge on other guardian breeds, esp suitable for the family.

And back to the point of the OP's "ask on C/D" here is a blurb from the founder:

Thanks again @Oh Little Oji may I PM you later on a couple ?'s.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Ok I remember that now.
Looked it up at the time: intriguing!
May have to bring up a couple of the topics in Midguards FAQs later in a new thread. Serious dog geekery science there...

And, Just as an aside, which may also be relevant to OP @SmtmsAlwys
one key aspect of DCF I enjoy is not just the deep expertise on both confo AND working line dobes...rare elsewhere, all by itself, but the big the bonus is hearing from people with experience and knowledge on other guardian breeds, esp suitable for the family.

And back to the point of the OP's "ask on C/D" here is a blurb from the founder:
View attachment 163837
Thanks again @Oh Little Oji may I PM you later on a couple ?'s.

Sure, you bet.