TrinityDobes
Novitiate
Yep, just because we are the Kinder, gentler, Forum does not mean we won't bite you in the azz when you need it - we will just do it with a smile on our faces 
-
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When you decide to breed or buy outside the box
- Thread starter Dobs4ever
- Start date
tunnelrat
New Member
Interesting topic Susan, I only joined two weeks ago but have learned so much. One thing I truly love about DCF is not only the knowledge of the forum members but really everyone's heart is in the right place. Personally, I can tell from the posts and pictures every member has been touched by the breed like I have... the funny doberman bows, personality and most of all the unconditional love they give you. I am not a breeder, nor do I ever plan to be however I know the more I learn the better ambassador I will become for the breed I love the most.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Well thank you Ms Sandy!!! Come on and have a glass of wine on me!!! I just get frustrated when people make fun of anyone espeically if they are trying. Or take the holier than thou attitude and try to put down a fourm that has stood for principles. I have seen people abuse privileges and pass out info that was given to them in private and make it public. I think honor demands better of us.
I have seen people intentionally tell only half a truth to pass on their warped ideas. I don't agree with every thing anyone does but if they are hurting a breed or hurting people then we need to draw a line. I have admired and been shocked at some of the inside things I know about this forum and the people leading it and it is all good. Mistakes yes - but they admit it and move to correct it.
I see lies allowed to pass and cringe when no one speaks up and tells the whole truth. Heck look at the post - most are afraid to post on the others - and some with good reason and some who post all the time should have been quiet but now the cat is out of the bag and they have become the laughing stock of most of the Doberman community. Only unsuspecting new folks to their forum are suckered in. It is a shame because the person who does own it seems very nice but he has been fooled too. Success is based on finding good people to run it and keep it honest. One thing I know you can't lead a forum if you are paranoid or afraid of someone who does not agree with you.
The mods on the big forums for the most part I have a lot of respect for. They try hard one just allows a lot more hitting below the belt. I always believe in a clean fight.
I have seen people intentionally tell only half a truth to pass on their warped ideas. I don't agree with every thing anyone does but if they are hurting a breed or hurting people then we need to draw a line. I have admired and been shocked at some of the inside things I know about this forum and the people leading it and it is all good. Mistakes yes - but they admit it and move to correct it.
I see lies allowed to pass and cringe when no one speaks up and tells the whole truth. Heck look at the post - most are afraid to post on the others - and some with good reason and some who post all the time should have been quiet but now the cat is out of the bag and they have become the laughing stock of most of the Doberman community. Only unsuspecting new folks to their forum are suckered in. It is a shame because the person who does own it seems very nice but he has been fooled too. Success is based on finding good people to run it and keep it honest. One thing I know you can't lead a forum if you are paranoid or afraid of someone who does not agree with you.
The mods on the big forums for the most part I have a lot of respect for. They try hard one just allows a lot more hitting below the belt. I always believe in a clean fight.
Denissov43
Notable member
I feel like I am missing some vital points of this thread? 
was I somewhere else when I should have been here when this started?
what did I miss? and who has the wine??? where is that line?
was I somewhere else when I should have been here when this started?
what did I miss? and who has the wine??? where is that line?
Denissov43
Notable member
Ya know I am over on FB all the time and I am a fan of a group called "OCDD= obsessive compulsive Doberman Disorder" 
a friend from Canada put it up for fun and now its like the most popular Doberman page on Facebook... well there are two breeders who are a part of this group and both of them are LONG TIME "Hobby breeders"... very long time... one claims 39 years, but her website says she 'started breeding when she was 14 because her parents were breeders"... which tends to make me think she probably grew up in a 'BYB / puppy mill/ hobby" breeder home, the other is a very talented and very active dog sport enthusiast who has titles for agility and more out the wazoo on her dogs and she eats sleeps and drinks training these dogs of hers... Now she has Kimbertal lines and the other gal has one dog from Hyott, but I cannot tell where the rest of her dogs come from, but on both of their websites they have tonz of photos of their dogs and tonz of text about their activities in Doberman breeding life, BUT NOT ONE mention of ANY HEALTH testing sans VWD stats...
Neither of them mentions one single thing about: cardio, thyroid, eyes, hips, elbows... just VWD, and one of these breeders even states that her male has VWD at 62% and yet she is breeding him...
I can tell that they women ADORE their dogs and adore the breed... both of them have clearly had MANY litters so they have ALOT of experience, ALOT Of knowledge about raising puppies and their dogs all look very healthy, happy, shiny coats and more...
but the deal is that they clearly do ZERO health testing and yet they are breeding up a storm and have had perhaps tens of dozens of litters of all sizes, shapes and colors.
What does the average person have to FEAR from a breeder like this? I mean... based on what we are discussing here... Hobby breeders= Bad, experienced years of experience breeders= good...
the years of experience these gals have in spades... but what about their lack of knowledge or investment into the basics of health testing??? cuz they have experience in training, showing, exhibiting and it seems boat loads of experience in raising happy "Healthy" puppies.
so how does the NOVICE, NEOPHYTE to Dobermans know the difference??? or is it important that they do?
I am asking not because I WANT TO KNOW... but to put some valuable information out there! Because these gals are advertising and selling puppies right there on FB and I think they are most likely very lovely people and clearly they love the breed!
What does someone who knows nothing about buying a Doberman need to know about this KIND of breeder, Suzan? Gail? You girls are the experts here... I have had a dozen litter of puppies in my entire lifetime... I know what I put into my breeding and care, and what testing I did and what titles I achieved...
I was a "Hobby breeder" too.. but I did the testing, I paid my 'dues'... but no one knew that about Me when they bought a puppy from me....
anymore than the people who buy from breeders like these gals!
so how does one judge?
a friend from Canada put it up for fun and now its like the most popular Doberman page on Facebook... well there are two breeders who are a part of this group and both of them are LONG TIME "Hobby breeders"... very long time... one claims 39 years, but her website says she 'started breeding when she was 14 because her parents were breeders"... which tends to make me think she probably grew up in a 'BYB / puppy mill/ hobby" breeder home, the other is a very talented and very active dog sport enthusiast who has titles for agility and more out the wazoo on her dogs and she eats sleeps and drinks training these dogs of hers... Now she has Kimbertal lines and the other gal has one dog from Hyott, but I cannot tell where the rest of her dogs come from, but on both of their websites they have tonz of photos of their dogs and tonz of text about their activities in Doberman breeding life, BUT NOT ONE mention of ANY HEALTH testing sans VWD stats...
Neither of them mentions one single thing about: cardio, thyroid, eyes, hips, elbows... just VWD, and one of these breeders even states that her male has VWD at 62% and yet she is breeding him...
I can tell that they women ADORE their dogs and adore the breed... both of them have clearly had MANY litters so they have ALOT of experience, ALOT Of knowledge about raising puppies and their dogs all look very healthy, happy, shiny coats and more...
but the deal is that they clearly do ZERO health testing and yet they are breeding up a storm and have had perhaps tens of dozens of litters of all sizes, shapes and colors.
What does the average person have to FEAR from a breeder like this? I mean... based on what we are discussing here... Hobby breeders= Bad, experienced years of experience breeders= good...
the years of experience these gals have in spades... but what about their lack of knowledge or investment into the basics of health testing??? cuz they have experience in training, showing, exhibiting and it seems boat loads of experience in raising happy "Healthy" puppies.
so how does the NOVICE, NEOPHYTE to Dobermans know the difference??? or is it important that they do?
I am asking not because I WANT TO KNOW... but to put some valuable information out there! Because these gals are advertising and selling puppies right there on FB and I think they are most likely very lovely people and clearly they love the breed!
What does someone who knows nothing about buying a Doberman need to know about this KIND of breeder, Suzan? Gail? You girls are the experts here... I have had a dozen litter of puppies in my entire lifetime... I know what I put into my breeding and care, and what testing I did and what titles I achieved...
I was a "Hobby breeder" too.. but I did the testing, I paid my 'dues'... but no one knew that about Me when they bought a puppy from me....
anymore than the people who buy from breeders like these gals!
so how does one judge?
Yep, just because we are the Kinder, gentler, Forum does not mean we won't bite you in the azz when you need it - we will just do it with a smile on our faces
Yeah they will sick Hexe on your azz if its nessesary
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Very good points Dennisove - and I agree with you 100% remember I used the word professional which to me separates the BYB from the professional breeder. A professional breeder does not just take one part of the program as you stated. They look at the entire picture - pedigrees, health, conformation, temperament and for our breed trainability. I often refer to it as a 4 legged stool - Which is more stable a 1, 2, 3 or 4 legged stool??? Truth is a 1 or 2 legged stool won't even stand alone and neither will a breeding program.
So health, conformation, temperament and, for a working breed, trainability makes a more solid program. The person who approaches breeding from the professional aspect wants it all and wants it right. To me a BYB is certainly a hobby breeder - even if they breed 3,000 litters which would move them to the puppy mill status not professional breeder - if they have not grown, learned and applied all they have learned about each aspect then they don't truly care about the breed. There are things I like, but don't breed because they are not to standard so regardless of personal likes I have to care enough to breed correct. Sadly too often I hear it is what I like so I will breed. It is about loving the breed and working to perfect the best Doberman based on standard one can.
A professional breeder might have started out as a BYB or Hobby breeder but they wanted more so they paid their dues did their home work and advanced for the betterment of the breed. Isn't that what we want???
I know some folks that might not have followed ALL the steps that most consider they should have, but are better than some that put on the show. So there can be exceptions to every rule and we have to take these things into consideration. The biggest problem is judging before we know. If you have not walked in someones shoes honestly you don't know what decisions you might have made.
I have also seen people who have no qualms about throwing a lie out there to taint someone else and for some reason it seems people find it much easier to believe a lie than the truth and it can be very hard to overcome some of that stuff. So if we say something about someone we should KNOW that it is true not spread gossip.
There are people I would prefer were breeding different dogs but they are working, learning honestly improving. As an example we talked about breeding z factor - if you learn it is absolutely wrong which it is, wouldn't a good person stop, spay and work to move up not continue to breed them???? If you know it is wrong but continue to do it then you are not interested in quality or improving the breed because you are breaking the basic rules and guidelines. Doesn't this speak to basic character??? I would have to question someone honesty if they do something that is against all the rules and banned by the breed club.
I think just focusing on conformation alone is not good enough - I think just focusing on obedience is not good enough, I think not focusing on temperament is not good enough but you see that is ME. I have no right to impose my personal quirks on everyone else and that is what some are trying to do when they judge others. The breed club does not say that. The COE does not say that. I have found sometimes in actually meeting or talking with someone that I was wrong in my conclusions. Ever had that happen to you???
The COE was written to give basic guidelines as the forefathers knew that you have to have some flexibility in breeding as circumstances might require - Many think it is not strict enough, but the fear is who would make the final decision, do they have the entire breed at heart of just personal preferences - ex: Blues and fawns are allowed by the parent club - so how can you make someone disreputable for breeding them - do we want to do like Europe has done for years and cull them??? The old time American Breeders have said that to breed a blue into a program occasionally cleans up the color. What is wrong is to breed them JUST for color and because they are "rare" so you charge more money and are producing poor quality coats and dogs.
Well this thread started because some felt because we tried to be nice and allow folks a different opinion and discuss it openly that it meant we agreed with everything or put a stamp of approval on it. And you know you and I have had some differences of opinion but we have respected each other and not resorted to mud slinging, name calling - we have left the door open for discussion and opposing views. There are things that you just have to really be around for a long time before you truly understand it. Not everything you read is exactly how it always works.
If you shut down that discussion by just coming out with all guns blazing the discussion comes to a deal halt and no one learns. I have trained and titled enough dogs to know that not one thing works for all dogs and there are things I can do because of experience that someone else could not do. We have to allow for those differences right up to the point it deviates from truth and right.
So health, conformation, temperament and, for a working breed, trainability makes a more solid program. The person who approaches breeding from the professional aspect wants it all and wants it right. To me a BYB is certainly a hobby breeder - even if they breed 3,000 litters which would move them to the puppy mill status not professional breeder - if they have not grown, learned and applied all they have learned about each aspect then they don't truly care about the breed. There are things I like, but don't breed because they are not to standard so regardless of personal likes I have to care enough to breed correct. Sadly too often I hear it is what I like so I will breed. It is about loving the breed and working to perfect the best Doberman based on standard one can.
A professional breeder might have started out as a BYB or Hobby breeder but they wanted more so they paid their dues did their home work and advanced for the betterment of the breed. Isn't that what we want???
I know some folks that might not have followed ALL the steps that most consider they should have, but are better than some that put on the show. So there can be exceptions to every rule and we have to take these things into consideration. The biggest problem is judging before we know. If you have not walked in someones shoes honestly you don't know what decisions you might have made.
I have also seen people who have no qualms about throwing a lie out there to taint someone else and for some reason it seems people find it much easier to believe a lie than the truth and it can be very hard to overcome some of that stuff. So if we say something about someone we should KNOW that it is true not spread gossip.
There are people I would prefer were breeding different dogs but they are working, learning honestly improving. As an example we talked about breeding z factor - if you learn it is absolutely wrong which it is, wouldn't a good person stop, spay and work to move up not continue to breed them???? If you know it is wrong but continue to do it then you are not interested in quality or improving the breed because you are breaking the basic rules and guidelines. Doesn't this speak to basic character??? I would have to question someone honesty if they do something that is against all the rules and banned by the breed club.
I think just focusing on conformation alone is not good enough - I think just focusing on obedience is not good enough, I think not focusing on temperament is not good enough but you see that is ME. I have no right to impose my personal quirks on everyone else and that is what some are trying to do when they judge others. The breed club does not say that. The COE does not say that. I have found sometimes in actually meeting or talking with someone that I was wrong in my conclusions. Ever had that happen to you???
The COE was written to give basic guidelines as the forefathers knew that you have to have some flexibility in breeding as circumstances might require - Many think it is not strict enough, but the fear is who would make the final decision, do they have the entire breed at heart of just personal preferences - ex: Blues and fawns are allowed by the parent club - so how can you make someone disreputable for breeding them - do we want to do like Europe has done for years and cull them??? The old time American Breeders have said that to breed a blue into a program occasionally cleans up the color. What is wrong is to breed them JUST for color and because they are "rare" so you charge more money and are producing poor quality coats and dogs.
Well this thread started because some felt because we tried to be nice and allow folks a different opinion and discuss it openly that it meant we agreed with everything or put a stamp of approval on it. And you know you and I have had some differences of opinion but we have respected each other and not resorted to mud slinging, name calling - we have left the door open for discussion and opposing views. There are things that you just have to really be around for a long time before you truly understand it. Not everything you read is exactly how it always works.
If you shut down that discussion by just coming out with all guns blazing the discussion comes to a deal halt and no one learns. I have trained and titled enough dogs to know that not one thing works for all dogs and there are things I can do because of experience that someone else could not do. We have to allow for those differences right up to the point it deviates from truth and right.
TrinityDobes
Novitiate
Denissov43 - I am going to try and answer from my point of view - a very very good question!
Its not good enough to just LOVE this breed and compete in your chosen venue. I am including show breeders in this to, those breeders whose sole goal is to produce the "type" of dobe that will be the next breed ring champion. I know of a very well known and respected show breeder in FL who has been heard saying "I don't care how long they live, as long as its long enough to get their championship!"
So I agree, it is very confusing to buyers to know where to go, and who to trust. A good breeder must know their standard, must have an indepth knowledge of their dogs pedigrees, and yes must health test. They must know the temperament and trainability of their dogs, know the drive and have a very good understanding of behavior and what motivates it to be able to assess the puppies you produce. The problem with some long time established breeders is that they may not have acquired and kept up with the changing health landscape in dobes today. They may be carrying on with the same practices they had 20 years ago.
30 years ago, the only real health testing was a vet repro check up (checked for full dentition) and an elissa vWD blood test and sometimes OFA the hips - breeders knew their lines what health issues that may have cropped up and bred away from it - 20 years ago - it was not much different but we started doing OFA hips, elbow, and a host of other things- 11 or 12 years ago we got the first DNA test for vWD and the push for echo and holter really surged and testing for eyes was more prevalent
I myself have struggled with the "approved reputable" breeders who are producing champion after champion - yet do not know the health of any individuals pedigree beyond the first 3 generations, and really are breeding for phenotypical trend - rather than to the standard. Many of these breeders are so heavily involved in showing they are not able to be there to support the "high" demand of the pet puppy first time buyers. Many of these breeders have no knowledge or experience with training obedience or even a basic understanding of their dogs temperaments.
I struggle with breeders like House of Hoytt who seems to have some incredible longevity in their lines (14,15,16 years) seem to provide wonderful training support (which for me Training/raising a puppy once it leaves what ever breeder is the biggest priority) and yet he is a commercial breeder who is frowned upon.
I don't think there is any easy answer. All these breeders meet the needs of different demographics. The one thing that i do know and am certain about - is that some breeders are going to produce pups that are at higher risk for health and temperament issues than others. Usually breeders like the ones you are speaking of get a lot of first time buyers, but no repeat buyers. Once their buyers end up with a life ending health issue those buyers go elsewhere for the next doberman. If you have a puppy die at 3 from DCM are you really willing to take the chance that the next pup from the same place will beat the odds and live to 10? usually not.
I get calls all the time from people who loved their Kimbertal, house of Hoytt, Amish Country or even Rescue Doberman - most of these dogs were lovely dogs - just had life ending health issues that took them away too soon, or some have had temperament issues that were manageable but not fun. These people made an uneducated choice the first time around (a high risk choice) they love the breed but they want to increase their chance for better health, and increased longevity and a more enjoyable, fun normal relationship the second time around. The 2nd time around, they ask better questions to help them make a decision to get a puppy with lower risk of dieing early.
There is also the possibilty that the 2 breeders you are referring to, have by happenstance, dogs that have health and longevity, and feel they don't need to test for the other things the rest of us do - because it has honestly not been an issue for them. If this is the case then I am sorry I think it is by sheer luck - not design.
I have in private conversation, and now will openly speculate n that its a very real possibility that our breed's health salvation may lay in the diverse pedigrees of the back yard breeder - not all of them are repositories for DCM and temperament issues. If forced to consider this possiblity, these BYB pedigrees will come at a price - usually sacrificing conformation, temperament and overall quality.
There are some things I will not accept from nor approve of by any breeder. Deliberately breeding WZ dogs - we have a standard - can't pick and choose only those things you like and want to embrace with a breed standard - you MUST respect those that came before and set this standard - to not respect the sandard is to not respect the breed period. We are fighting enough demons in this breed without deliberatly breeding and perpetuating a mutation PERIOD.
There is a code of ethics about how often dogs should be bred and at what ages - you better have a damn good reason to breed any dog before the age of 2 - damn good.
There is no excuse to not health test dogs before breeding. There is more to health testing than vWD. IMHO at a minimum breeding pairs need to have OFA cert for Hips, OFA Cert for Thyroid, DNA vWD, OFA Heart, (Cardio Auscultation or Echo), and the WSU DNA DCM test. Though this test is not 100% predictive, the status of breeding dogs should be known. There will also be 1 or 2 more DNA tests available this year, for me the most predictive of these tests should be mandatory for every breeder. (I did not used to test for eyes, now with such concentrated euro bloodlines, I've add OFA eye certification to what I wll be health testing for in the next generaiton)
And its not enough to know what the status of the sire and dam's health history is - you had better be looking at 10 generations to get a REAL health history for your planned litter.
As I said - there is no easy answer - Buyers need to educate themselves and choos a breeder they feel comfortable with and that they feel confident will support them and care about their dobe for the next 10 years.
Its not good enough to just LOVE this breed and compete in your chosen venue. I am including show breeders in this to, those breeders whose sole goal is to produce the "type" of dobe that will be the next breed ring champion. I know of a very well known and respected show breeder in FL who has been heard saying "I don't care how long they live, as long as its long enough to get their championship!"
So I agree, it is very confusing to buyers to know where to go, and who to trust. A good breeder must know their standard, must have an indepth knowledge of their dogs pedigrees, and yes must health test. They must know the temperament and trainability of their dogs, know the drive and have a very good understanding of behavior and what motivates it to be able to assess the puppies you produce. The problem with some long time established breeders is that they may not have acquired and kept up with the changing health landscape in dobes today. They may be carrying on with the same practices they had 20 years ago.
30 years ago, the only real health testing was a vet repro check up (checked for full dentition) and an elissa vWD blood test and sometimes OFA the hips - breeders knew their lines what health issues that may have cropped up and bred away from it - 20 years ago - it was not much different but we started doing OFA hips, elbow, and a host of other things- 11 or 12 years ago we got the first DNA test for vWD and the push for echo and holter really surged and testing for eyes was more prevalent
I myself have struggled with the "approved reputable" breeders who are producing champion after champion - yet do not know the health of any individuals pedigree beyond the first 3 generations, and really are breeding for phenotypical trend - rather than to the standard. Many of these breeders are so heavily involved in showing they are not able to be there to support the "high" demand of the pet puppy first time buyers. Many of these breeders have no knowledge or experience with training obedience or even a basic understanding of their dogs temperaments.
I struggle with breeders like House of Hoytt who seems to have some incredible longevity in their lines (14,15,16 years) seem to provide wonderful training support (which for me Training/raising a puppy once it leaves what ever breeder is the biggest priority) and yet he is a commercial breeder who is frowned upon.
I don't think there is any easy answer. All these breeders meet the needs of different demographics. The one thing that i do know and am certain about - is that some breeders are going to produce pups that are at higher risk for health and temperament issues than others. Usually breeders like the ones you are speaking of get a lot of first time buyers, but no repeat buyers. Once their buyers end up with a life ending health issue those buyers go elsewhere for the next doberman. If you have a puppy die at 3 from DCM are you really willing to take the chance that the next pup from the same place will beat the odds and live to 10? usually not.
I get calls all the time from people who loved their Kimbertal, house of Hoytt, Amish Country or even Rescue Doberman - most of these dogs were lovely dogs - just had life ending health issues that took them away too soon, or some have had temperament issues that were manageable but not fun. These people made an uneducated choice the first time around (a high risk choice) they love the breed but they want to increase their chance for better health, and increased longevity and a more enjoyable, fun normal relationship the second time around. The 2nd time around, they ask better questions to help them make a decision to get a puppy with lower risk of dieing early.
There is also the possibilty that the 2 breeders you are referring to, have by happenstance, dogs that have health and longevity, and feel they don't need to test for the other things the rest of us do - because it has honestly not been an issue for them. If this is the case then I am sorry I think it is by sheer luck - not design.
I have in private conversation, and now will openly speculate n that its a very real possibility that our breed's health salvation may lay in the diverse pedigrees of the back yard breeder - not all of them are repositories for DCM and temperament issues. If forced to consider this possiblity, these BYB pedigrees will come at a price - usually sacrificing conformation, temperament and overall quality.
There are some things I will not accept from nor approve of by any breeder. Deliberately breeding WZ dogs - we have a standard - can't pick and choose only those things you like and want to embrace with a breed standard - you MUST respect those that came before and set this standard - to not respect the sandard is to not respect the breed period. We are fighting enough demons in this breed without deliberatly breeding and perpetuating a mutation PERIOD.
There is a code of ethics about how often dogs should be bred and at what ages - you better have a damn good reason to breed any dog before the age of 2 - damn good.
There is no excuse to not health test dogs before breeding. There is more to health testing than vWD. IMHO at a minimum breeding pairs need to have OFA cert for Hips, OFA Cert for Thyroid, DNA vWD, OFA Heart, (Cardio Auscultation or Echo), and the WSU DNA DCM test. Though this test is not 100% predictive, the status of breeding dogs should be known. There will also be 1 or 2 more DNA tests available this year, for me the most predictive of these tests should be mandatory for every breeder. (I did not used to test for eyes, now with such concentrated euro bloodlines, I've add OFA eye certification to what I wll be health testing for in the next generaiton)
And its not enough to know what the status of the sire and dam's health history is - you had better be looking at 10 generations to get a REAL health history for your planned litter.
As I said - there is no easy answer - Buyers need to educate themselves and choos a breeder they feel comfortable with and that they feel confident will support them and care about their dobe for the next 10 years.
Shadowlands
Novitiate
Quite frankly, I can only speak for myself, but between Gail, Suzan and DeDe...we have an unbelievable amount of extremely knowledgable breeders here on DCF and all 3 of you are open and willing to help those who are new, wanting to learn more and wanting to learn period.
I agree with all of the above points and hope that those reading this post get a much better idea of what we here of DCF stand for and against.
Suzan, I will share a bottle of wine (or several LOL) anytime girl!!
And Gail, DeDe ... we will be sharing drinks in Austin
I agree with all of the above points and hope that those reading this post get a much better idea of what we here of DCF stand for and against.
Suzan, I will share a bottle of wine (or several LOL) anytime girl!!
And Gail, DeDe ... we will be sharing drinks in Austin
This is an incredible thread, very educational and warming at the same time. This might or might not be the appropriate thread, but we could start one. Taking all health testing and explaining them.What they are, why we need them and why buyers should look for these test in searching out a puppy. I remember going through and thinking "what the hell does vWD stand for"......I'm quite sure there are tons of people that have no clue as to what different test are, how they are done and why they are needed.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Trinity - Scary - we said the same thing just with a little different words and must have been typing at the same time. It is where new breeders to our breed often miss the mark - It is like a Doctor or vet just out of school is not ready to open up shop yet - they usually apprentice with an experienced doctor or vet to get the real low down and how it works in the "real" world.
It is what makes breeding hard and I have said it before and will say it again - Breeding is not for the faint of heart, arm chair quarterback or the person who goes with the flavor of the month. These forums should open up the mentoring and not shut it down. If everyone just did things my way I would be 100% happy BUT wait - my way might in the end bring the breed down.
We each approach things from different angles and perspectives - the end result is in the pudding and that is what truly shows the depth of any program. It just can't happen over night. I too have heard it said that the saving of the breed in the end might come from the BYB due to diversity not not by design. Sometimes we over think things.
I have said it before and will say it again that we also can't make health the ONLY focus. Back to the stool.
The old icons in the breed did not have the health test but they knew their lines inside out and all the health testing in the world can't teach you what they knew by the seat of their pants. I feel instead of using health testing to learn and help make better decisions it has become more of a battering ram which is NOT in the best interest of the breed.
As far as the BYB not having the conformation and they don't, just look at the horrible examples they produce - BUT look at the original picture of the first Dobermans - ugly - don't think Herr Dobermann gave a rats ...... about beauty - he wanted workability and greased lightening. So I do think if the breed fell back to the BYB good breeders could bring conformation back at some point. I am not so sure we could bring back workability and temperament.
For example I was reading the other day where someone asked the question about should we have exclusions in our contracts for training: "The sport of Szh. was allowed but not guard dogs" WHAT??? For one thing I know that this person who asked has it in her contract not to allow it. So why was the question asked - because there is clearly a lack of understanding of temperament. It goes on to say that whether the dog can do the job or not does not matter - WHAT??? Temperament does not matter???? Who reads this stuff.
It goes on to state that there are bad trainers and bad people so dogs should not be trained for these things. OMG. How silly. See that is misleading new folks who probably now think that all protection is bad. What will they do if one of their dogs bites someone out of fear, but was not trained??? Do they think dogs don't bite unless trained for it???? Clearly shows a misunderstanding of the breed and even states that dogs can't be belligerant to another dog yet the standard states that dog aggression is not a fault. BUT, you do have to have your dog under control because if he attacks another dog you are out of there.
Here are the exact quotes:
Here are both quotes: From the poster: "As far as the standard, a vicious dog is one that attempts to bite or attack people at the show or is belligenent attitude toward another dog. They are dismissed and can not compete."
From the standard: " Viciousness: A dog that attacks or attempts to attack either the judge or its handier, is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness."
Do we have an obligation to present truth or our tainted view of it? Should we know the standard before spouting it? Should a breeder or AKC judge or Trainer have better knowledge before handing out info??? Should they be held to a higher standard than the BYB or pet owner??? I think so.
So it does not matter what our views are - it matters what the standard says and don't show ignorance by misquoting the standard in any area. The entire standard is the guide not just one paragraph that we pick out because we like it and then try to twist it to fit our thoughts or to justify our intentions.
It is what makes breeding hard and I have said it before and will say it again - Breeding is not for the faint of heart, arm chair quarterback or the person who goes with the flavor of the month. These forums should open up the mentoring and not shut it down. If everyone just did things my way I would be 100% happy BUT wait - my way might in the end bring the breed down.
We each approach things from different angles and perspectives - the end result is in the pudding and that is what truly shows the depth of any program. It just can't happen over night. I too have heard it said that the saving of the breed in the end might come from the BYB due to diversity not not by design. Sometimes we over think things.
I have said it before and will say it again that we also can't make health the ONLY focus. Back to the stool.
The old icons in the breed did not have the health test but they knew their lines inside out and all the health testing in the world can't teach you what they knew by the seat of their pants. I feel instead of using health testing to learn and help make better decisions it has become more of a battering ram which is NOT in the best interest of the breed.
As far as the BYB not having the conformation and they don't, just look at the horrible examples they produce - BUT look at the original picture of the first Dobermans - ugly - don't think Herr Dobermann gave a rats ...... about beauty - he wanted workability and greased lightening. So I do think if the breed fell back to the BYB good breeders could bring conformation back at some point. I am not so sure we could bring back workability and temperament.
For example I was reading the other day where someone asked the question about should we have exclusions in our contracts for training: "The sport of Szh. was allowed but not guard dogs" WHAT??? For one thing I know that this person who asked has it in her contract not to allow it. So why was the question asked - because there is clearly a lack of understanding of temperament. It goes on to say that whether the dog can do the job or not does not matter - WHAT??? Temperament does not matter???? Who reads this stuff.
It goes on to state that there are bad trainers and bad people so dogs should not be trained for these things. OMG. How silly. See that is misleading new folks who probably now think that all protection is bad. What will they do if one of their dogs bites someone out of fear, but was not trained??? Do they think dogs don't bite unless trained for it???? Clearly shows a misunderstanding of the breed and even states that dogs can't be belligerant to another dog yet the standard states that dog aggression is not a fault. BUT, you do have to have your dog under control because if he attacks another dog you are out of there.
Here are the exact quotes:
Here are both quotes: From the poster: "As far as the standard, a vicious dog is one that attempts to bite or attack people at the show or is belligenent attitude toward another dog. They are dismissed and can not compete."
From the standard: " Viciousness: A dog that attacks or attempts to attack either the judge or its handier, is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness."
Do we have an obligation to present truth or our tainted view of it? Should we know the standard before spouting it? Should a breeder or AKC judge or Trainer have better knowledge before handing out info??? Should they be held to a higher standard than the BYB or pet owner??? I think so.
So it does not matter what our views are - it matters what the standard says and don't show ignorance by misquoting the standard in any area. The entire standard is the guide not just one paragraph that we pick out because we like it and then try to twist it to fit our thoughts or to justify our intentions.
Shadowlands
Novitiate
Not only does that show a clear misunderstanding of the breed, but canine behaviour as a whole. That is totally insane!!
I also want to add that she has a Szh trained dog...she didn't train him, he was already started down that path when she got him and I don't know for sure how far he went with his training.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
(quote)Suzan, I will share a bottle of wine (or several LOL) anytime girl!! (quote) Shadow it would be my honor and pleasure!!
There are bad people in any and every profession - so should we stop going to doctors because a few are quacks??? Where is the intelligence in statements like those above??? I would choose a trained dog over and untrained dog any day.
It is no wonder people feel that is a lot of double talk and their heads spin with info like this out there. I agree a dog trained in PP should not be then placed in the hands of a novice. If you were not there for the training there is too much you would not know or understand and that could be a dangerous situation.
A person interested in Schutzhund knows you should do the training yourself. You don't normally send your dog off and I certainly would not recommend it for a novice owner at all, but it does not mean the dog is vicious just because he was trained, which is what is implied. I consider this kind of info detrimental to the breed. How can you own a working breed like a Doberman and say it is wrong to train them for what they were bred for??? I do agree that not everyone should own one, but I think any training is better than no training. Some people talk out of both sides of their mouth.
(quote) Shadow it would be my honor and pleasure!!There are bad people in any and every profession - so should we stop going to doctors because a few are quacks??? Where is the intelligence in statements like those above??? I would choose a trained dog over and untrained dog any day.
It is no wonder people feel that is a lot of double talk and their heads spin with info like this out there. I agree a dog trained in PP should not be then placed in the hands of a novice. If you were not there for the training there is too much you would not know or understand and that could be a dangerous situation.
A person interested in Schutzhund knows you should do the training yourself. You don't normally send your dog off and I certainly would not recommend it for a novice owner at all, but it does not mean the dog is vicious just because he was trained, which is what is implied. I consider this kind of info detrimental to the breed. How can you own a working breed like a Doberman and say it is wrong to train them for what they were bred for??? I do agree that not everyone should own one, but I think any training is better than no training. Some people talk out of both sides of their mouth.
TrinityDobes
Novitiate
Well D4E I will take it one more step further than "I agree a dog trained in PP should not be then placed in the hands of a novice."
I have come full circle with my opinion on dobermans and who should have them - and today I flat out don't think they are for everyone - period. and the main reason is that the protection instincts in this breed will in my opinion never be totally bred out of them - they maybe watered down and there may be exceptions to the rule, but for the most part hell no those insticts are right up front - needing to be dealt with, channeled and trained....
on another forum posters were speaking out AGAINST and putting down Schutzhund and PP because they did not feel their dogs response needed to be trained that they KNEW that their dog had the instict to protect them. UH, well YEAH they do have the instinct to do the job they were bred to do, BUT who the HELL is in charge of your partnership??? YOU or your dog???? and if you allow an untrained doberman to respond to a threat by instict alone with no training - you have a freaking tiger by the tail, you have a really dangerous situation, one for which YOU have no control over, you have no on command and YOU have no off switch (command) for, and YOU are just as liable for what your dog does motivated by instict, just as much as if you were waving a loaded gun around with the safety off and you shot someone or some thing. Its not just about you dog having this training its about you having the training to properly handle your dog in all these situations. Its the owner/handlers responsiblity for behavior always and I will be damned if I am going to leave a response to chance
Talk about irresponsible!!! WTF??? are you kidding me - since when is training for a reliable response to verbal or physical command a bad thing??? OH GOD GIVE ME PATIENCE!!!!! I wanted to reach right through screen and slap those IGNORANT posters that just would not listen or even consider the benefit of training so they could rely on what their dogs response would BE!!!! - not just "guess" or "know".
Just because you love your dog and your dog loves you!! does not mean he is going to listen and obey you - I understand not having experience on a subject but to make such stupid prouncements on an open forum as gospel and truth is a very very dangerous thing,
*whew * sorry... strayed a bit
but this goes back to people wanting a doberman and not being prepared or capable of owning one.
I have come full circle with my opinion on dobermans and who should have them - and today I flat out don't think they are for everyone - period. and the main reason is that the protection instincts in this breed will in my opinion never be totally bred out of them - they maybe watered down and there may be exceptions to the rule, but for the most part hell no those insticts are right up front - needing to be dealt with, channeled and trained....
on another forum posters were speaking out AGAINST and putting down Schutzhund and PP because they did not feel their dogs response needed to be trained that they KNEW that their dog had the instict to protect them. UH, well YEAH they do have the instinct to do the job they were bred to do, BUT who the HELL is in charge of your partnership??? YOU or your dog???? and if you allow an untrained doberman to respond to a threat by instict alone with no training - you have a freaking tiger by the tail, you have a really dangerous situation, one for which YOU have no control over, you have no on command and YOU have no off switch (command) for, and YOU are just as liable for what your dog does motivated by instict, just as much as if you were waving a loaded gun around with the safety off and you shot someone or some thing. Its not just about you dog having this training its about you having the training to properly handle your dog in all these situations. Its the owner/handlers responsiblity for behavior always and I will be damned if I am going to leave a response to chance
Talk about irresponsible!!! WTF??? are you kidding me - since when is training for a reliable response to verbal or physical command a bad thing??? OH GOD GIVE ME PATIENCE!!!!! I wanted to reach right through screen and slap those IGNORANT posters that just would not listen or even consider the benefit of training so they could rely on what their dogs response would BE!!!! - not just "guess" or "know".
Just because you love your dog and your dog loves you!! does not mean he is going to listen and obey you - I understand not having experience on a subject but to make such stupid prouncements on an open forum as gospel and truth is a very very dangerous thing,
*whew * sorry... strayed a bit
but this goes back to people wanting a doberman and not being prepared or capable of owning one.
Denissov43
Notable member
what a great thread!!
so full of practical, ethical, responsible and down to earth wisdom and knowledge!
What a privilege to just participate with so many people who have so many years of experience and understanding of this fabulous breed.
In my day to day life, I tend to think I am alone in my experience and understanding of dogs in general till I come to this forum!
At home, at the dog park, at the park, or just in day to day life you just do not have enough people around you that are knowledgable about their dogs or their breed. Its so terrific to come here and sit down and break bread and drink wine with people who have so much in common even if we disagree on everything! we still have that comraderie of relationship and appreciation to this passion that we have called 'Dobermans and Dogs"!
so full of practical, ethical, responsible and down to earth wisdom and knowledge!
What a privilege to just participate with so many people who have so many years of experience and understanding of this fabulous breed.
In my day to day life, I tend to think I am alone in my experience and understanding of dogs in general till I come to this forum!
At home, at the dog park, at the park, or just in day to day life you just do not have enough people around you that are knowledgable about their dogs or their breed. Its so terrific to come here and sit down and break bread and drink wine with people who have so much in common even if we disagree on everything! we still have that comraderie of relationship and appreciation to this passion that we have called 'Dobermans and Dogs"!
rottencatz
Member
Just wanted to add my input. Took me awhile, but I finally became a DPCA member this past fall. When I originally got into Dobermans, I didnt get the help I truly wanted or had asked for and I made several mistakes. I have since done what I could to correct those mistakes.
While at the "another board" forum, I was berated and verbally assaulted and accused of being a BYB wanna be. That was truly never my intention. I was also told that my dogs would never see the inside of a ring and that nothing would become of my dogs. I may have come off wrong in the beginning asking the wrong questions, but that was no excuse for how I was treated.
Well, my dogs have been shown regularly in the breed ring. My male, Tobie, now has 3 points. My bitch, Marquee, has 1 point so far. I do have other dobermans that are also showing in the breed ring that have either only placed in their classes or gotten reserve wins. Mind you, I actually just started showing last year. I have done everything and anything to learn more and more about the breed and to do things properly.
I am the type of person to jump in with both feet. I am going to handling classes with my dogs 1 and 2 times a week. I work with them daily on stacking or gaiting. I buy books, dvd's, etc. I just really upset me and pissed me off in the same breath, that these people made these comments about me. They also attacked the breeder of one of my dogs, because she doesnt "advertise" her health testing.
I do not believe Z factored dogs should be bred, although, I do personally know a breeder who does this. I also know of a breeder who breeds Kimbertal bloodlines, but she is extremely active in agility, obedience, etc. I do not condone their breeding programs, I just know it is not what I want to do. Doesnt mean that I will refuse to speak to them or associate with them. I just do not plan to utilize their practices.
When the time comes, I do plan to health test my dogs and if we breed it will be on a limited basis. My goal is to show right now. Period. Losing my son has been the hardest thing in the world for me and getting in that ring with one of my dogs gives me a few minutes of peace that nobody will ever come to understand.
I CANNOT wait for the day when I finish one of my dogs, so that I can throw that in the faces of the ignorant people over at "another board". It is a shame that they put labels on people and generalize because the person before me who posted on the forum ...wanted to do nothing but breed their pet quality dog.
I wont name names, but I applied to adopt a doberman from a local dobe rescue, but one of the "another board" members had it out for me and made sure it didnt happen. She didnt like that I had several dobes ranging from 6 months to 4-1/2 years old. I dont think that was right or fair. Especially, for the dogs out there looking for homes. I was/am able to provide a wonderful home, but for whatever reason, I gave up on a rescue.
I probably ended up going off topic, but this has been an issue for me for awhile and been something I needed to get off my chest. I feel like a child that was bullied in school. Those feelings dont go away.
My dobermans keep me sane, yet drive me crazy most days. Sounds nuts, but it's true. I want nothing but the best for this breed and will do my part to ensure that I do the best I can for the future of the breed.
I'll get off my soapbox now. I am not feeling well. Sore throat. Ugh. This rain has got to GO! Been pouring all day!
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Well Trinity you pretty much blew the lid off the nice!!!! Someday I could just reach through the screen and send you a big smiley face!!! That is the point they don't understand - not only Temperament but they don't understand training either. It is a sad state of affairs for sure.
I had a helper at Natls once talking about that very thing on the WAE. He said a girl's dog did not respond to the aggitator and she said that had the dog percieved a REAL threat she would protect her but because it was only a simulated test the dog saw no reason to respond and was poo pooing the validity of the test. The helper immediately grabbed her arm and started shouting and pulling - the girl was screaming as it scared her and the dog took off. He was out of there and wanted no part in it. The dog's flight drive was much stronger than it fight drive - shouldn't someone know this stuff???? Both are a part of temperament. When a dog is cornered it has two choices - fight or flight - Temperament determines which it chooses.
I would not count of any dog to protect that has not been trained - I would not bet my life on it for sure. By training and working our dogs we build a bond and a response. The let's the dog know what to do. An untrained dog is out there on its own making its own decisions and as you stated the owner is helpless at that time because they do not have training to fall back on and a command in place. I h ave said this before - a good couch potato does not equate to a good temperament.
I had a helper at Natls once talking about that very thing on the WAE. He said a girl's dog did not respond to the aggitator and she said that had the dog percieved a REAL threat she would protect her but because it was only a simulated test the dog saw no reason to respond and was poo pooing the validity of the test. The helper immediately grabbed her arm and started shouting and pulling - the girl was screaming as it scared her and the dog took off. He was out of there and wanted no part in it. The dog's flight drive was much stronger than it fight drive - shouldn't someone know this stuff???? Both are a part of temperament. When a dog is cornered it has two choices - fight or flight - Temperament determines which it chooses.
I would not count of any dog to protect that has not been trained - I would not bet my life on it for sure. By training and working our dogs we build a bond and a response. The let's the dog know what to do. An untrained dog is out there on its own making its own decisions and as you stated the owner is helpless at that time because they do not have training to fall back on and a command in place. I h ave said this before - a good couch potato does not equate to a good temperament.
Teufelhund in AZ
Active Member
Rottencatz~ I was horrified by the treatment you received on "another board"! You were so forthright about your situation and your hopes and dreams... None of that deserved the heinous responses you got! I don't understand why you got mobbed, and never felt you said anything wrong. You seemed very honest to me. While I can't relate to losing a child, I can imagine how devastating losing one of mine might be. Abusing a person in such a fragile state and verbally stomping their dreams and plans for emotional recovery is criminal! I was pleased to see you on this forum because I got the feeling that you would stick it out and succeed. It pleases me to thank your posts and congratulate your wins because everyone of them is a healing experience... Go get 'em girl! You have a cheerleader here in Tucson!
TrinityDobes
Novitiate
Rotten your post on "another board" from the Beware of "another board" Thread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Taking off my Moderator hat, this reply post is soley my own..
Rotten,
Well done on becoming a DPCA Member - and also on working to get involved and learn to show your dogs. You are learning and striving to educate yourself and prove your dogs are "breed worthy" you are to be commended for this effort. So Well Done.
Edited to correct my mistake of assuming that RottenCatz was one and the same as Rottenvonspottn. Rottenvonspotten is who posted the comment on "another board" and I assumed incorrectly they were one and the same - my applogy follows several post later -but wanted to edit ths post in-so-far- as to correct who I am upset with and it is not RottenCatz.
However, This thread to a large degree was started because of not only your post on "another board", but others that put this forum down because we "seemed to be ok with sub par breeders". I must admit when I read your post, personally my feelings were hurt, and I was insulted on behalf of this community. I thought it very disengenous that you were perfectly willing to accept our welcome, support, compliments on your dogs and congratulations in your showing endeavors, yet you still judged this forum lacking and not as well liked, because of our good manners. Perhaps we should thank you and the others who posted similar opinions, because it made a few of the members get our featers ruffled. Maybe the problem is we have not so loudly proclaimed nor made a big deal out of the difference between having good manners and accepting someone who does not seem to be an ethical breeder . We ASS-U-MEd that people "got it" that just because we were friendly to the person did not mean that we accepted nor condoned BYBs or those with bad breeding practices.
When you created your membership and joined this community as far as we were concerned you come with a clean slate - we will not prejudge you or anyone else - we will let your actions and words be judged as time goes on. I hope you have taken the time to read more of the threads where it should be very apparent that many of the contributing members here call a spade a spade - and thats why I am posting this now.
You don't have to choose between communities, we don't hold it against anyone who is a member anywhere else- - but I do expect the same respect and consideration in return as we extended to you when you joined.
I hope you stay and continue to be a contributing member of this community. You have a lot to offer us as we don't have that many members actively showing in the breed ring - so you can fill a void and help new members who are interested in following in your footsteps. BUT, I personally would appreciate you not playing mom and dad off one another, nothing positive will ever come of it. And just in case you don't recognize it - or take it wrong. This message is being sent with the utmost respect for what you are doing with your dogs - but also with some grave disappointment in your opinion of this community that has welcomed you with open arms and not one critism til now.
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