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When you decide to breed or buy outside the box

Discussion in 'Doberman Breeders' started by Dobs4ever, Apr 14, 2011.

  1. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    If you feel I crossed a line please remember this - one is condemned or vindicated by their own words and actions.. I honestly do not care if anyone likes me or respects me - it is far more important to me that you respect what I stand for and what I have produced in my program.

    If I post it =I stand behind it 100% and will not retract it or ask it be removed. ONLY if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be wrong will I change one word. I will admit the error and take the consequences.

    It is far more important to me that you say I always told the truth and did the responsible thing and did not waver in my fight for this breed which as far as I am concerned is the ony breed that is important.

    Yes there are different paths to accomplish something - but they all have to be trying to lead to the best for the breed to be right. As we travel down a road we mght have to make detours, adjustments etc but never do we do what is against the COE of the very breed we declare we love. A 5 year old should understand that.

    Now let's all go do the right thing and this time it requires us to stay with in the confines of the box!!!

    • Like Like x 4
  2. dobette

    dobette Novitiate

    I don't know what kind of experience with the House of Hoytt breeder but quite frankly I have another one from him and I wouldn't get a dobie from another breeder and when you say that he's commercial I think that you should check out your information more closely because he only sells to returning customers because he had some idiots returning their dogs for stupid reasons therefore no more selling to dimwits customers. He stands behind his breed and he is quite knowledgeable he's been breeding dobe for over 50 years and if it's not him it's the father who started it. The only thing I don't like about him is his training and you said that his training was alright ????? he is still training with a choke collar and I complitely disagree training with a choke collar. Choke collars are obsolete as far as I am concerned. I am an APDT member and trainer and I trained mine with a clicker and positive reinforcement and she is not an out of control dobie and I can get her to do whatever I want with training but like every dobe they need to know who rules the house and she knows no doubt about it.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. JanS

    JanS DCF Owner Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    If that were the case, why is he still advertising in all breed magazines like Dog Fancy?
    • Like Like x 3
  4. NorthernDobes

    NorthernDobes Member

    I didn't know he still bred dogs?

    I remember when I first started looking for a Doberman I was looking at Hoytt and Kimbertal. They were the first breeders listed on the search engine.

    I can usally tell a Hoytt doberman from any other, they all have the same look.
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Katja Henriksen

    Katja Henriksen Forum Sponsor Site Sponsor

    There is another thread where someone asked about clicker training. Maybe you have some good advice or tips you can share?
  6. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Gosh I know Gail has said this I did not know you knew a breeder also - strange both in Florida.

    The real jprobelm is when anyone tries to throw any part of the standard out as not valuable. Conformation has its place and just because we might not like it all or how it is put up does not invalidate its validity in the area that it excels in. I agree we need to do more than just one to really get it right.

    A stool that is missing any leg is not stable. It takes it all. So lets see who works in conformation, obedience, tracking and protection - trains in all venues and titles in them???? Now that would be a very narrow margin of folks and it would eliminate a WHOLE lot of folks. We must work together to promote this breed and all facets of its needs. Conformation, working, health you cut anyone out and you won't stand for long. You cut too many out and there won't be enough Dobermans to maintain the gene pool.

    Dennisov when you have titled in all those venuse you will have a nucm better prospective.

    I don't know why you think breeders only test for VWD - if you read the forms many many are involved in complete testing more so than ever before.The statement below is a prime example of not knowing enough to know better.

    This is truly far out if you read any of the forums. I don't know any top breeder today in show circles, working circles or otherwise that are not up on stuff. I know a lot of it is new to you since you changed to Dobermans but it is not new to well established breeders. DPCA and UDC talks health and testing all the time, has workshops at nationals, cardio clinics so I don't know which hat you pulled this out of but I would check my sources.

    Glad to see you decided to wait on Gemma Rose. It was the right decisionand gld to see that you do now agree forms follows function!!! Way to go.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Hello123

    Hello123 New Member

    I joined this forum after lurking for some time.Truth be told I was looking for a few posters that had disappeared else where.Found them here so I joined.

    It's so hard for me after many years of following the dogs,(and pony show),breeder antics in Ontario and not :bag: reading some of these forums.It embarrasses me that I have known them and their dogs for so long.Years ago there was nothing 'good' to be said of them.Now....they are the last ones standing.Guess what?....stuck with them now.We had a much more lively bunch before.There were simply more reputable breeders.People had 'kennels'.It wasn't considered unusual or bad.Not all reputably bred dogs were titled.I kid you not.Honestly....I kid you not.From this our current 'super stars' acquired their foundation and mentoring.Now they are viciously attacking same said people as 'in it for the wrong reasons'.Times do change,but completely forgotten?I remember.I was there at the club meetings.

    I did contact my dog's breeder.She is retired from breeding and the sanctioned clubs.No longer participating.I asked her who I should consider a dog from.She mentioned a man still here in Ontario and a few people in the U.S.A. Why?.....because that's where the dogs are from.Nobody is doing anything here without the AKC breeders.No shocker.That's how it was then too.Needless to say I have ended up not replacing my Dobe.All the internet and education I could have ever have wanted for over the years and all it has done is make me gun-shy.I didn't have any of that before and I got a wonderful dog.Now when I go online I am afraid to mention his pedigree.

    What the HE(hockey sticks) has happened when your ashamed to admit your dog has Marienberg,Bealane.Deerfield,Dreamseeker,to name just a few, oh so many great and mighty dogs now fallen, in his pedigree.Has the Doberman really come to such ruin that our once celebrated are to be mocked and tossed to the wolves?

    I say to anyone who has made mistakes and comes here to correct them.Look no further than me.I bought a beautiful championed sire and dam pup.Immaculate championed pedigree,reputable breeder.Wonderful dog.Still I come to the internet and learn he was 'crap'!I admire those who admit wrongdoing.For myself I'll admit none because my dog was beautiful.Truly stunning and admired.I only got him because I promised him a forever home.I wasn't going anywhere.His breeder knew where her dog was.She wouldn't have had that piece of mind had she sold him to a club member.Even with a co-ownership.It was offered.She turned them down.A rare opportunity to hold back a male pup and not have to give him up or see him passed around if he failed showing.

    I am so freaked by the current atmosphere in the Dobe world that I don't know where to stop,go,shoot or go blind.Never mind buy a dog. I thought I did it all right then.Today I find out I'm wrong.Guess what? Our clubs specialty awards a memorial prize that is to commemorate a deceased breeder and her lines.I've not heard one decent word said online of her or her dogs since I started researching the purchase of another Dobe.Knock me over with a feather!Those people were her friends.They bought and bred her dogs.Now....she's a trophy and a bad limb on their pedigree/family tree.I'm so weary of it all.The politics stink!

    I don't get it.I wish I could go back to the days of the shows and clubs.Network for a dog.Meet the breeders in person!We had to do that then.And it wasn't so very long ago.I'm also shocked at the poor sportsmanship.Sure...it was always there,but not anonymous like it is now.It can take months and years to figure out who your dealing with today because of the internet.Back then everybody came to the shows and the club meetings.No secrets.No surprises.I see breeders now online who no longer list some of the dogs they originally had then.Seriously?Why not?They were very good and great dogs then.Still are great dogs if you appreciate them in their own time.Many are proud to say they have decades invested.Really?Where are the dogs they had when I first met them almost a few decades ago?Those dogs aren't even a footnote on their websites.

    I want to keep learning.I don't want to coat tail or be kennel blind.Right now I am taking grooming classes because I do want to work with dogs.My daughter is almost finished school and my mortgage is coming to an end.I work in healthcare with flexible hours.I will buy another Dobe and I would like to be a show home.I'll have the time and resources to reach for the gold ring.I still have no idea where to buy a dog.Scarey conclusion to come to almost two decades after beginning.I would never have believed I would feel this way after so many years.I am still very shocked I haven't pursued the purchase of another Dobe.I don't feel confident to make a decision.I'm secretly terrified a breeder I admired will ask for a link to my dogs Dobequest page and bumrush me out their door laughing.Then I get worked up and steamed because I'm very proud of my dog R.I.P.

    So,if your a person who didn't know what a Dobe really was before making a mistake.....don't be shocked when I tell you....I bought a fantastic Dobe.It took many years...but he ended up a punchline for today's Dobe just like yours is.Your trying ti do it better and I'm trying to figure out WTF happened to me?
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Hello123

    Hello123 New Member

    Reputable Dobe breeders always health tested their dogs.Even in the dinosaur ages.You can look back and say they had less to work with,but keep in mind your looking back 20 and 30 years often times.That can be a phenomenal amount of dogs,but it's a drop in the bucket as far as medical research goes.Very easy to point out where a breeder went wrong when you have many thousands of dogs to compare.I can assure you the reputably bred litters parents had siblings and they had siblings and on and on it goes.All health tested.How come the dogs are so unhealthy?Even today.Hmmmmmmmm...let me guess....honest lack of knowledge or disreputable breeding practices?You can only make the call if you understand what your looking for and at in that period of time.

    When I bought my dog you couldn't just go online and look up their health testing and search data bases for pedigrees.It just wasn't done.No internet.That was the mid to late 90's.You had to understand what testing was expected and what the paperwork looked like.And the results.Who in your area was doing the testing.On and on.It was a learning experience.Not all testing was as standardized as it is today.I'm thinking about hips.It was vastly different then from today,but things were greatly improved from the 70 and 80s.Or so we were told.Ultimately time tells.

    Health testing doesn't amount to much if the breeder has no purpose for it.Some don't.Those breeders will move on.Get different dogs and showcase themselves in a way that can appear focused.That's as evident today as any other day in time.Are they reputable?Well they health tested.By that standard sure.

    You can be a very reputable kennel blind coattailer.Every period in time has those.Who do you really want to buy a dog from?If your dealing with that kind of breeder,health testing most likely won't get you a great dog.It's a catch 22.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    First let me say welcome form Missouri - Glad you joined us.

    Hello123 you make many good points. Unfortunatley there are many new upstart breeders who don't know the history or where so many of our great dogs came from. They have no solid basis in dobermans yet they are now self proclaimed experts. Hopefully those that are standing now learned as they went along and are better because they are dedicated.

    I hear your frustration but you have to remember that just because the new wave of breeders criticize icons that it just shows their lack of understanding and that we do not have the sportsmanship that we had years ago or the general acceptantce of one anothers differences. Marienburg is in many pedigrees and people should be proud of the heritage. I have said it before - Mary Rogers is a very visionary breeder and she has set the world on fire with her vision. She was ahead of her times. When I think about the icons in our breed who as you say are now slammed on a regular basis it does make you wonder what is wrong with people.

    The newer top show breeders are now of the opinion that you should not breed at all but once every couple years and only if you need a new champion. They fail to have learned from the past generations who did have kennels - and all the dogs lived in them and they flourished. Today they have to stay on the couch and have more health issues than you can shake a stick at. They help create the standard, thye lived by it. They understood that form follows functions and they knew how to apply it to the standard.

    I also agree that kennel blindness is really evident in those who are new to the breed - have never produced an AKC champion but who have based their entire focus on BIG. They throw out the standard, they throw out caution and common sense and are on a new kick almost daily. The breeders like Tess Hensler, Joanna Walker, Peggy Adamson, John and Anne White, Mary Rogers, Irene and Ed Bivens just to name a few all encouraged new people and promoted our breed. They were students of the Dobermasn and all its many facets. They cared about temperament and many of today's breeders have no clue as their only measuring stick is the show ring or worse yet reading the internet.

    We have a standard to follow - it allows for individual interpretation within its bounds and breeders have the chance to create something that is outstanding. Too many today focus on only one aspect - one will choose size thinking apparently that bigger is better, some focus only on health not caring if our dogs are true to the standard so we are seeing dogs that are not balanced, tight fitting, compact, powerful or they focus only on the show ring and everything else goes down the drain.

    If you breed ong enough you will see some of all the problems arise. It happens regardles sof how hard you try. Breeding is not an exact science and there are not hard fast rules. except follow the COE, know the standard and do your best to breed to that ideal standard.

    Thank yoiu for your input - Hope you stay around.
    • Like Like x 3
  10. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Based our the thread about purchasing a blue puppy that was later revealed a z factored i felt it good to revive this old thread. I hope everyone will take a few minutes and read it. Z factored dogs are a plague on our breed because they come from dogs known to produce the defective albino gene. People who breed them often have to resort to lying and misleading to sucker in some unsuspecting person into breeding into their limited gene pool trying desperately to keep it alive when it was banned way back in the early 90's.

    True Doberman fanciers and breeders would never stupe so low as to taint the gene pool with a KNOWN defect. it goes against everything the COE and breed standard stand for. It goes against the very heart of purebred dogs which is breeding for a specific purpose to improve the breed.

    I often wonder how long the practice would continue if the unethical albino breeders told every single person upfront that they were defective - to read up on albinoism and its health problems - study the defect the breed standard and that they have been banned by their own breed club and branded by AKC etc then let me know if you want a puppy that carries this serious defective gene which has been banned by its own breed club.

    Thinking outside the box does not mean lowering standards or knowingly produce poor quality on purpose. We have a choice - and the choice should be to improve the breed and any dog that carries the Z factor is not the right, good, prudent, intelligent or sane choice based on what purebred dogs is about.

    You will not fool anyone to say you don't promote them when you BUY them and then brag about how smart they are or your lack of common sense.
    • Like Like x 2

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