What action is being taken to save the breed?

[Sage024]

As I wait to take Kanda back for his third Holter (first two failed to record, ugh. Third time is a charm I hope) I have fallen down the rabbit hole of trying to understand how the breed got to a place where there’s so little genetic diversity, such high inbreeding and such a high risk of DCM. Hopefully I’m not being super repetitive here or too out there, so excuse any naive questions I may have or stupid suggestions I may put out there. Kanda is my first dog and first Doberman and I love him to death. I don’t see myself wanting any other breed. Doberman are so incredible and it’s so heartbreaking to find that the breed is in a bad place. I’ve been reading some real doomy things about how the breed may be on its way to extinction in our lifetime, how it’s near impossible to breed out DCM and how extreme measures would need to be taken to improve the health of the breed.

Does anyone know if anything besides research is being done to help save the breed? Are there any breeding programs out there that focus on creating more genetic diversity while preserving breed standard whether that be via outbreeding or crossing? At risk of sounding reaaaally dumb, has anyone out there tried re creating the breed? Like what the original founder did, mixing the breeds suspected of creating the Doberman, to try and create a new pool of genes to mix into the existing pool? Re create the ancestor?

Or are there any programs out there focused solely on breed preservation rather than breeding for show etc. (another really dumb sounding idea here) like saving genetic material from dogs with good pedigree, freezing it and waiting out the dogs lifespan to see if it ever develops DCM and then using that to breed to other dogs with good pedigree or out breed?

I know I’m on a soap box here and throwing out some far fetched ideas, and please feel free to correct me if I’m looking at this issue as more dire than it is. Also feel free to link me to any other threads or studies. I just can’t imagine this breed dying out in my lifetime. Surely there are programs and such out there that would take extreme measures to save the breed. I’ve heard of some pug breeders that are breeding to make pugs healthy again (though I don’t think they’re dealing with genetic diseases but more so breeding out undesirable physical traits like short snouts and such).

Im 26, my dog is 2.5 and I’d want it to be standard that these dogs live to be 15, 16 years old like they use to, not 8 and below. Do I sound crazy? I don’t know some late night and shower thoughts to ponder with you more knowledgeable folk

 

[JanS]

Does anyone know if anything besides research is being done to help save the breed?

This one is actively going on right now.

Disappearing Doberman Project - Your input & help is needed!

(Reposted) Good things come to those who wait. After months of diligent work by Ashlee Claggett, the Disappearing Doberman Project Surveys are finally launched! Putting together a scientifically valid survey is no simple task. Working together with Lily Curlin, a volunteer for the project, we...

doberman-chat.com

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I think you have great ideas!

 

[Sage024]

This one is actively going on right now.

Disappearing Doberman Project - Your input & help is needed!

(Reposted) Good things come to those who wait. After months of diligent work by Ashlee Claggett, the Disappearing Doberman Project Surveys are finally launched! Putting together a scientifically valid survey is no simple task. Working together with Lily Curlin, a volunteer for the project, we...

doberman-chat.com

I’ve heard of this one through Rubydoo and Bruce’s owner! Need to look deeper into this one

 

[Ravenbird]

I've applied to that project and others and never heard back, but they tend to want younger dogs so they can do lifetime studies.

I agree with you - sometimes I feel like it's hopeless and sometimes I feel like surely they are exaggerating. I've looked at a few very tiny attempts to outcross and bring back to standard, but it was poorly done, no support, you have all these puppies that don't fit the program to breed back into standard, plus even if/when they got a Dobe back in 3 or 4 generations with a very low COI, then AKC wouldn't accept it back into the gene pool for breeding purebreds to. It's a can of worms no matter how you look at it.

I'm like you, I have no interest in owning another breed and I'm terribly saddened by the state this breed is in with such short lifespans. What I really wish for is genetic studies/DNA markers. They found it with Von Williebrand Disease and yes, that was part of the bottleneck because back in the day they didn't even want to be known for breeding carriers which is perfectly safe if you breed to a clear. Anyway, many many dogs were spayed and neutered and out of the gene pool, which could have been carefully bred to clears only and kept some diversity going. We can't let that happen with DCM. There are so many thing we don't know about it, but if a study could pinpoint markers so that we could make intelligent choices to breed to deplete the affected numbers - that would be my personal 1st choice.

 

[JanS]

I've applied to that project and others and never heard back

You didn't even get a confirmation? I got one for both of our dogs right away, but still haven't received a swab test.

 

[Sage024]

I've applied to that project and others and never heard back, but they tend to want younger dogs so they can do lifetime studies.

I agree with you - sometimes I feel like it's hopeless and sometimes I feel like surely they are exaggerating. I've looked at a few very tiny attempts to outcross and bring back to standard, but it was poorly done, no support, you have all these puppies that don't fit the program to breed back into standard, plus even if/when they got a Dobe back in 3 or 4 generations with a very low COI, then AKC wouldn't accept it back into the gene pool for breeding purebreds to. It's a can of worms no matter how you look at it.

I'm like you, I have no interest in owning another breed and I'm terribly saddened by the state this breed is in with such short lifespans. What I really wish for is genetic studies/DNA markers. They found it with Von Williebrand Disease and yes, that was part of the bottleneck because back in the day they didn't even want to be known for breeding carriers which is perfectly safe if you breed to a clear. Anyway, many many dogs were spayed and neutered and out of the gene pool, which could have been carefully bred to clears only and kept some diversity going. We can't let that happen with DCM. There are so many thing we don't know about it, but if a study could pinpoint markers so that we could make intelligent choices to breed to deplete the affected numbers - that would be my personal 1st choice.

It seems so complicated and I’m sure it is. Seems almost like it would have to be a full on multi step approach. An effort from the whole community. Speak with the AKC to see where they stand on the issue, what it would take to get exceptions to breed crosses into the purebred list. Work with geneticists and canine experts and vets to understand the minimum we need to get the breed on track, how outbreeding could work or how to make major progress with DCM research. We have much more technology now than we did even 20 years ago. Surely there’s a way to use AI to come up with solutions or run scenarios. There just has to be something.

Surely dobermans aren’t the only breed that have been in need of rescuing. It’s gotta be better to make some sacrifices to the breed standard than to lose them entirely.

Watching my boy monch on a bully stick right now, looking so happy and regal. He deserves a full, long lifespan, they all do

 

[Ravenbird]

Speak with the AKC to see where they stand on the issue, what it would take to get exceptions to breed crosses into the purebred list.

The DPCA is the breed club under AKC and I can tell you right now the door would be slammed in your face. Not literally, but pretty much "not just no, but hell no" if you mention out crossing.

Edit to say ^^^ that is my personal feeling I get from them, I have no direct proof of that, nor am I a member of DPCA.

Surely dobermans aren’t the only breed that have been in need of rescuing. It’s gotta be better to make some sacrifices to the breed standard than to lose them entirely.

I agree. And it has been done before, proving that it's do-able:

The Dalmatian/Pointer Backcross Project: Overcoming 20th Century Attitude about Crossbreeding - TUFTSBG2011 - VIN

www.vin.com

 

[Cferg]

CRISPR gene editing - Wikipedia

Using crispr you could remove the genes and start DCM genetic free lines. But marker free dogs from my understanding doesn’t always mean. The dog won’t develop. But I guess more research of what genome is producing the disease would pinpoint what to remove.

 

[Ravenbird]

But marker free dogs from my understanding doesn’t always mean. The dog won’t develop.

Correct, the markers they have now are not definitive at all. Clear dogs still get DCM and dogs with markers sometimes don't. So basically the biggest problem is not knowing what gene to avoid or at least not double up on in breeding.

 

[Cferg]

Correct, the markers they have now are not definitive at all. Clear dogs still get DCM and dogs with markers sometimes don't. So basically the biggest problem is not knowing what gene to avoid or at least not double up on in breeding.

I feel confident with enough funding into research we could find the gene that’s actually causing SD. I suppose no owner organization is going to put up that kind of money.

 

[StateOfMine]

THE DOBERMAN DIVERSITY PROJECT

The Doberman Diversity Project is a non-profit organization addressing the genetic health problems and short life span of today's Doberman across the world

www.dobermandiversityproject.org

They used to list breeders that focused on genetic diversity. I don't know why they stopped. They will accept Embark test results if you submit them.

 

[JanS]

I recently got a thing for another study for Phoebe. I told them she was deceased but they still had me do the survey.

Dear Jan, We’re reaching out because you are a valued member of the Embark community, and we believe Melrae's Great Mystery may be a perfect candidate for an upcoming research project. Embark is working with Utrecht University to identify potential genetic causes underlying certain health conditions among Doberman Pinschers. If Melrae's Great Mystery is selected, Utrecht University may contact you directly with more information and next steps. Participating dogs become a vital part of our research, providing data that could be used for future scientific discovery to improve the health of all dogs.

 

[Ravenbird]

They used to list breeders that focused on genetic diversity. I don't know why they stopped. They will accept Embark test results if you submit them.

Ashas Embark was submitted to them about 3 years ago & they welcomed my information and joining. Haven't heard from them since. They also stopped their Holter rental program.

I recently got a thing for another study for Phoebe. I told them she was deceased but they still had me do the survey.

I got that same email - what about a month ago? - Did the survey, gave permission to be contacted by the University and have not heard back since.

 

[JanS]

I got that same email - what about a month ago?

Mine was on 11/2. I know that place (Utrecht University) is super slow though since I've done some stuff through them before.

 

[Rits]

I'm guessing the problem with all of this is money.

 

[Ravenbird]

I'm guessing the problem with all of this is money

No doubt. And demand. A few thousand dog owners wanting answers is not much demand in research world.

 

[Sage024]

The DPCA is the breed club under AKC and I can tell you right now the door would be slammed in your face. Not literally, but pretty much "not just no, but hell no" if you mention out crossing.

Edit to say ^^^ that is my personal feeling I get from them, I have no direct proof of that, nor am I a member of DPCA.


I agree. And it has been done before, proving that it's do-able:

The Dalmatian/Pointer Backcross Project: Overcoming 20th Century Attitude about Crossbreeding - TUFTSBG2011 - VIN

www.vin.com

At what point do official organizations like that step in to save a breed? If it’s been done before with others then surely it can be done with Dobermans. I just wonder at what point do they step in to make the dramatic changes needed.

 

[Sage024]

CRISPR gene editing - Wikipedia

Using crispr you could remove the genes and start DCM genetic free lines. But marker free dogs from my understanding doesn’t always mean. The dog won’t develop. But I guess more research of what genome is producing the disease would pinpoint what to remove.

This is another thought I had but didn’t want to get too out there in one post haha. I’ve heard of crispr research for using gene therapy to cure disease in humans but I’m sure it’s still all very hypothetical and experimental. I’m not sure how it works in other mammals but maybe it could be used for editing whatever gene causes this in dobermans, as a treatment perhaps. But I’m not a geneticist or scientist. I’m sure it’s all very complicated and we still don’t know what gene(s) actually causes the condition.

Wish there was a millionaire out there that had a big passion for dobies who would pour money into this issue

 

[Sage024]

CRISPR gene editing - Wikipedia

Using crispr you could remove the genes and start DCM genetic free lines. But marker free dogs from my understanding doesn’t always mean. The dog won’t develop. But I guess more research of what genome is producing the disease would pinpoint what to remove.

On paper it sounds like a great solution but in practice idk how complicated it is or how far along that technology is. Wouldn’t that be amazing though to just edit that right out of them. Just remove the possibility of them every developing it