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When you decide to breed or buy outside the box

Discussion in 'Doberman Breeders' started by Dobs4ever, Apr 14, 2011.

  1. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Since we have had several new arrivals to DC and there has been some serious discussions about this forum being a BYB forum I would like to address this from my personal experience since I was warned off this site in the beginning as being a White forum. I later found out that the person who kept feeding me stuff, an AKC judge btw should know better than to intentionally mislead folks.

    First I would not be here if this was a white forum. What people seem to confuse is that in our world you should hate what is wrong but not hate the person. There is a big difference in speaking out against unethical practices and degenerating to name calling, mud slinging etc. You can't educate people if you drive them off. That does not mean you condone their actions. Sometimes they listen and were just acting in ignorance which in and of itself is not an offense.

    The good breeders on this forum are against breeding any forum of white of Z factored and we are openly allowed to say so. What we can't do is call some one an moral degenerate for breeding dogs that have been disqualified by their own parent club. But don't think it will be welcomed here or mistake that for acceptance.

    We will stand up for right and that AIN'T WHITE!!!

    We do not condone ever breeding two dogs that are both under 2 years of age and only minimal health testing has been done. What would be the rush to breed two untested dogs???? I can't only think of a couple - money and stupidity. So if prior to breeding you find out it is frowned upon but proceed to do so anyway then it makes one question motives. How can someone care about the health of a breed if they don't care enough to wait til adulthood which is considered a minimum 2 for the Doberman???

    There can be a few reasons to breed possibly one of a pair under two but both and to each other by a new breeder with little knowledge and understanding of long term concequences???? Has reason flown out the window???

    We have also had a flood of people applying for club membership and that did not happen either. If you are not doing things correctly then you will find it hard to join UDC of DPCA. We want ethical folks who are concerned about doing things right. Can anyone make a mistake - yes but if they came here and got info that educated them and failed to follow it who is at fault???? The clubs for denying membership or the person who threw caution to the wind???

    I fear I have a far different opinion of what ethics means. Character does not rush to judgment. Character means you want to do things by the book. I read the post and I can read and see the lack of knowledge. We want to help educate - we believe in giving folks a chance, but don't think that means it can be thrown back in our faces and then go crying about how someone was so maligned by the big bad wolf. Don't mistake civility for acceptance - they are two very different things.

    What do Ethics and caring for this breed mean to you??? I certainly hope not anything goes and just because someone got fooled by the sneaking white breeders and bought Z factored does not give carta blanch to breed for any reason. You can never improve a breed ifyou are breeding something that has been disqualified.
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  2. Damasyn

    Damasyn Novitiate

    • Like Like x 10
  3. Teufelhund in AZ

    Teufelhund in AZ Active Member

    Amen!! I could KISS you for this thread! Lately I am more and more uncomfortable with the perception that DCF members welcome and accept questionable breeders and their less than stellar breeding programs. I love DCF and enjoy my free time spent here. I DO NOT blindly accept everyone here as good and just! Instead I avoid (like the plague) the threads and members I can't support. I can say that I avoid many more members and their threads on the other forum... My ignore list *over there* is impressive in it's numbers. I don't even know if there is an ignore feature here... Never looked.
    In real life, I am active in my Doberman Community and go out of my way to represent my club and the office I hold in a respectable manner. I would love to flame people from time to time, hey I'm human! I will not stoop to that though... Instead I focus on things in the real world I can do something about and ignore the nonsense spewed on this and other forums.
    Polite conduct should not be an afterthought in life. The polite nature of DCF appeals to me because the members here keep the vitriol to themselves for the most part. I don't want to lend the impression that my desire to be part of a polite online community means I support or encourage the train wreck of bad breeding... Be it Z or just plain crappy.

    In short: Thanks for saying what I have been thinking for the last few weeks... :) You are my forum hero today!
    • Like Like x 18
  4. bythenight

    bythenight Member

    I agree with where your perspective, but I feel like I am missing some details...:scratch:
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  5. Shadowlands

    Shadowlands Novitiate

    Thanks D4E, I think you spoke what many have been thinking. I believe most here on DCF totally agree with you. :)
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  6. TrinityDobes

    TrinityDobes Novitiate

    Thank you Suzan - I am going to take off my Moderator hat for the moment and post as a Forum Member and as a breeder.

    I love this forum - I love that it has the good manners to be polite and welcome all new members, to do any differently is just plain bad manners and rude. HOWEVER, I too do not want that warm welcome and hand extended in friendship to be perceived as my tolerance for, nor support of any single individuals bad or unethical behavior when it comes to giving this breed or this forum a bad name.

    I am proud of this community and how it conducts its self and it hurts when new people come here, accept our warm welcome and compliments on their dogs, give them support and friendship and then they go to other forums and say less than complimentary things, because we extend a warm welcome to any and all that have dobermans and love them.

    Just because we have good manners and don't believe this forum is the place for personal attacks nor to put down a members new pup because they may have came from a BYB does not mean we support BYBs. What it means is that, we feel so strongly about reaching out to and educating people who have made not the best choice, so we can educate and hopefully give them the benefit of our experienc so that the next puppy will be chosen with different criteria. It is true that we will catch more flies with honey than with Vinegar. If we ridicule and alienate new members right out the box, we will have lost any opportunity to help them and their new doberman and we will have lost any opportunity to educate.

    This Forum is not a namby, pamby, wishy, washy, community when it comes to the important issues of Health testing, longevity, planned breeding strategies, proper training or proper behavior. Please do not confuse our good manners with acceptance or supprt of unethical behavior - you see the difference in this community and others is not the message - but the way we deliver it.

    So, Welcome to the new members, please don't mis-understand the friendship I have extended - it will always be there as long as you listen to the message and will work towards improving and protecting this breed - I am on a personal mission to educate and mentor those new to the breed, as well as those that have been in the breed but have made some bad choices. Choices that are in direct conflict with the standards for breed and the code of ethics established by the doberman community. No one is perfect, we all make mistakes - its whether we acknowledge them, learn from them, and are willing to change and improve, that is the most important thing.
    • Like Like x 23
  7. Marinegeekswife

    Marinegeekswife Hot Topics Subscriber

    Perfectly said by Dobs4ever, Teufelhund in AZ, and Trinitydobes. Thank you guys for summing it up. Now where is that "love" button?!
    • Like Like x 15
  8. nc_dobemom

    nc_dobemom Novitiate

    When I joined this forum I was hesitate to say the least. Because of my past experiences on forums ( not just "another board" but basically any forum besides the white forums I went to) I was quite gun shy.
    I don't expect or ask people FORGET my past....just realize I am trying to do what's right and be a better ambassador for the breed.
    Being on this forum and having the freedom to interact on posts and put my opinions without constantly having my past threw in my face HELPS me stay on the straight and narrow because as I've said before I feel like I have people counting on me to do right. I have people here I respect and I don't want to screw up again because I would let them down.
    If it hadn't been for the “open armed approach” and support I get here I can honestly say I would of went back to my old ways months ago.
    My past is something I struggle to not go back to everyday. It's like it was an addiction and DCF is my 12 step program.
    A lot of those that are “bybers” probably grew up like I did; they always had dogs but they were just dogs. My family has had dogs (mutts basically) my whole life but my dad had a strict NO DOGS IN THE HOUSE rule. Heck the family dogs didn't get shots, wormed, etc until I got old enough to buy the stuff and do it myself.
    People like that (that WANT to change and grow) have to be reprogrammed so to speak and taught new ways, not just discounted as losers.
    • Like Like x 17
  9. bythenight

    bythenight Member

    Perfectly said Gail. I couldn't have expressed my feelings better. I think I was lost on first view of this thread because I do not visit other forums. I have perused others in the past, but would never post due to the judgement and ridicule that seemed so common on those forums. Do I agree with, like, support, EVERYTHING I read on this forum? NO, not always....BUT I will NEVER take part in any kind of bad mouthing. At times it can be condoned :::coughTYEcough::: But more people will become educated with patience -rather than bashing them-which will only make them validate their uneducated behaviors or beliefs.
    • Like Like x 11
  10. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    NC - I have always said that anyone can get taken in and there are those people that just have to champion the underdog. In your case you paid a big price but by golly you bit the bullet and you took the steps to try to move past it. It is not wrong to champion the underdog as long as it is by the book and the under dog is not breaking all the rules. But anyone can get suckered in especially if they had no foundation to fall back on.

    We are counting on you to learn - Not everyone and certainly not me was born in the Ivory Tower. I do not consider myself above anyone. I do know that I have learned a lot about Dobermans and that there are families that through the years have counted on me time and again to do things right. I would not disappoint them for the world either.

    Trinity - what good conversations we have had and I thank you for stepping out of your mod box for a moment to share what you would have shared anyway Mod or not. When you talk about being nice here and then trashing us there I have always considered that two faced. If I say it here you had better believe I will say it to your face. But I will not be nice here and then spit on you somewhere else. I also will not say it here unless you bring it up. Then it is fair game. With the internet did we loose all sense of common decency???

    If you misrepresent, lie, change your story or show your ignorance I will know because I have paid the price and done my homework. I do not slack and I won't tolerate a bunch of BS from anyone. I will call it - I can be nice about it and try my best to give the benefit of the doubt but don't think that I missed a darn thing.

    As Trinity said = We want to help anyone. That is what we are here for. Just don't mistake help for acceptance. It is not. And unless you really know what you are talking about I would not go on a forum that has experts on it and shoot BS. I always count on people to be honest - you can help an honest person who made an honest mistake - you can't help those who will not help themselves.
    • Like Like x 15
  11. nc_dobemom

    nc_dobemom Novitiate

    Bold emphasis mine.

    I have paid a HUGE price for the decisions I made and man if I could go back 10 years I would defiantly do things DIFFERENT! I would still of bought my CKC reg. $75.00 Doberman Storm BUT I would of got her spayed ASAP and listened MORE. I would of never fell into the albino/white thing.

    My MENTOR I had in this breed was someone I'd known for 30 years. She was there when I was born and introduced me to Dobermans at an early age. She is also the woman I ended my association with a few months ago because I just did not and could not stand by and watch in silence her breeding habits! She doesn't have Dobermans anymore but she is a byber (pure and simple) of small breeds. Me and her had a huge falling out over it and I've spoke to her maybe 4 times (just calling to see how she is doing) in the past 7 months.

    I will say it again Without THIS forum I WOULD be back in my old habits. I have no doubt. Doberman-Chat IS my 12 step program! You have NO idea how hard it is for me to NOT have a Doberman. I've owned one or more at all times for 9 years. But I HAD to do this so I could get myself back on the right course.....

    Saturday I am going to the humane society I volunteer for and working all day. They have several events that day and need volunteers to come in and fill some of the positions that will be empty with staff gone to these events. I am so excited because I will get to see the blue Doberman male they have there...I will probably spend ALL my time with him hahahahhaa
    • Like Like x 11
  12. hrd2gt

    hrd2gt Well-Known Member

    I think what DCF really is about is to be there for people who love dobermans. Not everybody has the luck to come onto a perfectly bred doberman. (if you will..) Both of my girls are BYB and Fate is Z factored. Neither I consider quality to breed so both have been spayed. You dont want to know what I would consider responsible breeding!! But needless to say, most people are *not* educated enough before hand to know what to look for, as well as there are a lot of "reputable breeders", even recommended by DPCA, that are not putting out good dogs. When it comes down to it, people have byb, z, white, fawn, floppy eared, tailed, long haired... etc etc... I dont think anyone should judge them if they just own then. We are here because we love dobes. But on the same note, after you are educated on the breed, I think everyone should make their best effort to better the breed to be healthier and live longer. If you cant do that, you dont need to breed. I defintely do not condone senseless breeding or breeding to make weird dogs. (doberoodles?? really??)
    • Like Like x 14
  13. Apollo

    Apollo Novitiate

    AMEN to all above
    • Like Like x 8
  14. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    What I think I really struggle with the most is that people say one thing and then turn around and say something different somewhere else. These internet forums are like an extended cyber family. It brings people together that have the same interest and allows us to get to know folks we might never meet in person. It allows us to broaden our horizons, gain knowledge at a much faster pace and it allows us to reach out and help someone who is seeking guidance.

    It blows my mind when poeple talk like experts and have never titled a dog. You learn by doing - you don't learn this stuff by osmosis which is what I told an AKC judge once who was talking about temperament and the WAE - she just did not get it and suddenly she remembered a year later she thinks she had an uncle once who trained a dog in Schutzhund when she was a child. So pray tell me what does that have to do with the price of tea in China??? If you have titled multiple dogs you know more than someone who has titled one dog, if you title dogs in a multitude of venues you know even more.

    Same with breeding. If you have bred one litter you are new and are just beginning to learn. I have always found it amusing that we want PROFESSIONALS when it come to buying a houses, car, needing an attorney doctor, accountant OR even a vet, etc but we want a HOBBY BREEDER. Has anyone ever thought about that??? With living breathing things we want someone who has only bred a couple litters every now and then - I beg to differ.

    I have no idea who dreamed up that little label but it is truly off point. Hobby folks do it in their spare time - not serious to them, mostly for their personal enjoyment - WAIT isn't that everything we are against - Laxadasically breeding. Breeding whites, breeding babies, breeding oversized, giants or any other flavor that will bring in a buck.

    You see there are a lot of things that we have stated to people that might be true as far as it goes but if you really think about it, it just doesn't wash.

    Here is one of my pet peeves - it is on breeding blues and fawns - I nearly died the first time I read that a reputable breeder does not breed blues and fawns - WAIT a minute - Blues and Fawns are an approved AKC color. The winning Doberman a couple years ago at DPCA natls A BLUE - Folks we can't throw out crap like that and then expect people to believe us when they find out the entire truth of the matter.

    I do think you have to be very careful when breeding them. I think you have to know the lines and I think you should not be breeding dilute to dilute just to produce the "RARE" colors so you can charge more. A Doberman is a Doberman and don't vary with price because of color or sex. But honestly I fail to see how one becomes disreputable just because you have a litter that has blues and fawns. Please don't tell my little Bella fawn girl that - she is only 3 points from her championship.

    We spend more time pointing fingers at people than helping them and that does not help the breed, the clubs, the shows or ourselves. In all things we have to believe in shooting straight from the hip and I don't take statements that are misleading to JQP lightly.
    • Like Like x 9
  15. TrinityDobes

    TrinityDobes Novitiate

    Whoa - I want some of what D4E is drinking !!!

    That is so true Suzan about wanting a puppy from a breeder who only breeds once in a blue moon - you and I both know how much experience it takes to whelp a litter and have them all survive - even very experienced breeders loose an occasional puppy, but inexperienced breeders loose entire litters.

    The problem is finding a mentor - they are out there for those that are serious and want to learn to do it right - but thats the problem - too many newbies think they know it all. The lesson that they have so much yet too learn is usually a heart wrenching one.

    Great Post Suzan - I hope members are reading and going "hmmm" never thought about it quite like that - I love it when the light bulb goes off!
    • Like Like x 8
  16. Teufelhund in AZ

    Teufelhund in AZ Active Member

    Thanks for such a thought provoking post. You make some excellent points many have never considered. I want a breeder that lives and breathes for their lines and accomplishments... :)
    • Like Like x 6
  17. bhr

    bhr Novitiate

    YOU ROCK!!!!!!!
    • Like Like x 3
  18. Apollo

    Apollo Novitiate

    Thats why i love you Suzan, you say how it is
    • Like Like x 4
  19. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Well Trinity - it is enough to make me drink for sure. One thing people need to realize is both forums have good points - One you have to wear hip boots to wade through the BS and half truths spouted by people who want to promote theri personal agenda, Have flame retardant underwear and fire extinguisher at all times and a halo incase the other two FAIL to protect. If you survive you get to read the good stuff and it is there. I fear far to many get driven away than helped by the hard nosed approach. Too often they jump to far out conclusions and go off the deep end before they answer the poor persons questions and so they leave without any help. Some are so traumatized that they never recover. But what does not kill you will only make you stronger. Don't run just because you get criticized. If you are right or did not honestly know stand up for yourself. There are a few people who are always on the march in a search and destroy mission. Ignore them - they have little good to say about anyone. Find the gems.

    And this forum gets criticized for being too nice and so therefore lacks the snob appeal aspect. No flame suit needed here. You might get a little singled around the edges but you won't get extinguished. One is led by a big corporation who wants ratings and interesting enough the other is run by an individual involved in Dobermans who also was singled out due to his mistakes. Instead of screaming foul at the top of his lungs he learned, he grew and he took the high road working to develop a forum where folks could come and not get beat over the head. He admitted his mistakes and has worked to learn from them. He is supportative of his members, is available to solve problems when they arise and always tries to make the fair and right decision much unlike the lesser forum that has an absent T owner and is run by BYB at their best who spout errors on a regular basis. Anyone who dared to stand up to them was immediately banned by the insecurity of the admin BYB AKC judge who could not afford to let folks know how .............. she was - she deleted post, edited them and banned faster than the white knight - funny that was the very thing she claimed was happening here. I am one of her casualties. Who is the bigger looser??? Remember - if it does not kill you it will only make you stronger.

    This forum could just as easily gone negative as we have seen done. It struggled but Von stuck to his guns and has tried to run a clean ship. Unfortunatley the negative approach won't go anywhere because the glaring errors made by the OP were right before their eyes but they decided to try to throw their weight around and start a big internet pitty party. Had they done things right to begin with they would have at least had a leg to stand on. We tried to help by pointing out errors in a nice way and I have to admit I was impressed that they listened and made some changes. The biggest error was the negative web site - You

    NO internet forum can hurt you if you are right. You can't go negative and expect postive. You can't win in court when you were wrong to begin with. We hurt ourselves the most when we jump in without knowing enough to do it right.

    That is the whole point in all this. Do things right. If you are too new to know what is right then ask, get help, study but don't just run out and breed and then try to justify it by claiming everyone ELSE was wrong.

    Thanks Trinity Let's go have a nice glass of wine together girl!!!
    • Like Like x 10
  20. Shadowlands

    Shadowlands Novitiate

    Damn Suzan!! You are on a roll today and I for one want to say BRAVO!! You have made some excellent points and I hate to think that DCF is being painted with same brush as one or more of the others. We may dress it up so it doesn't sting so much, but when asked the answers are honest.
    • Like Like x 7

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