Spay and heat cycles

[Ravenbird]

So here is one article about the whole heat cycle and also mentions toward the end of the article the reason why not to spay until well after heat cycle. Here they say 70 days, but that would just be 10 days after (false) whelping date and just entering the lactating/puppy fixation time. I've never been able to find the original place that I read to wait 4+ months, as that gets the hormones completely settled into "weaned and gone/zero puppies on my mind" stage. ***Edit to say they said "well AFTER the 70 day diestrus period" so that does match my thoughts.***

False Pregnancy in Dogs

We get a lot of questions about female dogs having their menstrual periods. In fact, the menstrual cycle is a primate phenomenon; dogs have an estrus cycle that includes a period of false pregnancy. This false pregnancy can last for weeks with the dog producing milk and sometimes mothering a...

veterinarypartner.vin.com

last paragraph:

 

[JanS]

I've never been able to find the original place that I read to wait 4+ months, as that gets the hormones completely settled into "weaned and gone/zero puppies on my mind" stage. ***Edit to say they said "well AFTER the 70 day diestrus period" so that does match my thoughts.***

I agree that timing is pretty important, but these days, that can be tough. I called for an appointment after her heat to get it when the timing would have been about right. They said they were booked out until the end of July when she was due to come in heat again. I was a bit persistent and they found a cancellation for mid May, and that's the one I jumped on while I had the chance.

 

[MichiH]

So I looked up false pregnancy in spayed dogs and apparently it can happen after spay, within the first cycle after. Olive was spayed in mid May, her heat was due at the end of July, and now at the end of September she has been nesting. Maybe it's not a false pregnancy and it's just chilly, plus she has never had one before, but I guess it is possible. Just putting it out here for future discussion.

Oh wow that’s interesting. How’s is she doing?

 

[JanS]

Oh wow that’s interesting. How’s is she doing?

She's not doing it anymore so maybe it was just chilly?

 

[MichiH]

She's not doing it anymore so maybe it was just chilly?

Ok that’s good.

 

[Katyusharocket]

Glad Olive was apparently just reacting to being a bit cold.

While I am not looking to spay Z, she does appear to be a bit of an oddity as far as cycling goes. She was a year plus about a week at her first cycle and currently 7 months and a week since the beginning of her first cycle. I think she might be close, now, though. She got "testy" with a couple boys at a dog park yesterday and came up with a couple of bald patches about 10 days ago. Her vet team and I are still trying to work out whether her bald spots are hormonal or allergy, or an allergy that only happens during hormone fluctuations, or a skin infection, perhaps. She's currently on a 14 day amoxicillin run. It did seem to take the redness out of her bald spots very quickly. She has a follow up appointment for the antibiotic run this coming Saturday. While the bald spots don't seem to bother her, its still frustrating to not know, yet, exactly what is causing them and what to change to avoid them. It's going to be a lot of trial and error, I think. She seems very happy and unbothered, maybe i should take her lead on that a little more.

 

[Ravenbird]

She got "testy" with a couple boys at a dog park yesterday and came up with a couple of bald patches about 10 days ago. Her vet team and I are still trying to work out whether her bald spots are hormonal or allergy, or an allergy that only happens during hormone fluctuations, or a skin infection, perhaps. She's currently on a 14 day amoxicillin run.

Where are the bald patches, how big and is it just hair loss or is the skin irritated? With out a skin scraping and finding a bacterial infection I have confusion about treating with antibiotics.

Since she is going on two, you can expect her to get testy with other dogs at any time of her cycle, especially if she has been allowed to play freely with them at your dog park. In other words, like kids growing up together through junior high and now they're in high school, and they are able to sass and throw some opinions out.

Just thoughts...

 

[Katyusharocket]

Where are the bald patches, how big and is it just hair loss or is the skin irritated? With out a skin scraping and finding a bacterial infection I have confusion about treating with antibiotics.

The bald patches are each a little smaller than a golf ball. One is on her back, just on the left side of her spine, where her waist narrows from her ribs, and that one has more complete hair loss than the other one, which is harder to notice. The other one is lower, on her left side, in the middle of the narrow of her waist. There had been redness associated with each one, but that was gone 24 hours after starting the antibiotic. But, now she started her heat cycle this morning and a new one formed, on her butt just above the place where the fur swirls together. This one seems some irritated but less so than the previous two. Each one started with a very small bump in the middle, and those small bumps remain. By small bump I mean its a raised area about the size of the head of a pin. On the first bald area I described, I noticed that bump for about 2 weeks before the baldness happened. She seems uncovered by any of the areas. She doesn't pick at them at all. They probably bother me more than her.

As far as the antibiotics go, it was a Saturday and busy at the clinic, they couldn't see her on a regular appointment but the vet was nice enough to have a tech bring her in the back and that's how he wanted to go for that particular instance with a follow up appointment this coming Saturday for a skin scraping if nothing changed. I don't know, right or wrong, but I don't want to be the person that brings his dog to the follow up while also not being able to say that I followed instructions in the meantime. Having the vet look at her between appointments that day was free of charge, which was nice.

It's frustrating, I hope we can figure it out soon.

In other words, like kids growing up together through junior high and now they're in high school, and they are able to sass and throw some opinions out.

You have a wonderful way of making the things dogs experience very understandable in the human mind. I appreciate that (and many other things) about you.

 

[Ravenbird]

I get it about going along with the vet. It's frustrating for sure. I'm not a nut about it, and am always grateful for antibiotics and the life/health savings that they are capable of. Just that they seem to be a go-to for everything lately. Harmless unless it's frequent, so not a big deal. With the little pin size bump, sounds like irritation, allergic reaction to whatever caused the bump. Very strange. When I lived in Arkansas, there were dogs with flea allergies, every bite would lose hair around it, but usually they itched like crazy too. If she isn't bothered by them I'd think that's a good thing. But perhaps a skin/hair ointment (some recommended on the Blue/Fawn threads?) would sooth the skin and promote healing. I've never heard of allergies being different when a dog is in estrus, but hormones can change lots of things temporarily.

It's funny, Pepper just went into heat, Asha started Thursday and now Z is in.

They said they were booked out until the end of July when she was due to come in heat again.

That's crazy - I guess I'm really spoiled by small town vets. They are all extremely busy, but not booked out in surgeries for months!

 

[Katyusharocket]

With the little pin size bump, sounds like irritation, allergic reaction to whatever caused the bump. Very strange.

I have wondered to myself if it was all from some kind of insect bite. She's on Nexgard plus, which will kill fleas but as I understand it, in order to kill the flea, it has to bite? I guess when it turns to winter that will help narrow that down.

I've never heard of allergies being different when a dog is in estrus, but hormones can change lots of things temporarily.

I hadn't thought of it but one evening I took Z to the vets farm place to condition z to her horses (this vet is not her normal vet). She saw Z and went whoa what is this bald spots and I told her I believed it was related to her false pregnancy like her usual vet diagnosed it. But this vet thought it looked like an allergy rather than hormonal, and that even in people, pregnancy can trigger someone to be allergic to something that they otherwise wouldn't react to. In that moment I remembered that the mother of my children couldn't use hand lotion when she was pregnant. It would make her hands red and swell up. She otherwise could use it just fine.

It's funny, Pepper just went into heat, Asha started Thursday and now Z is in.

They're putting us thru it all at once, like "let's get this over with."

 

[Katyusharocket]

I forgot to include pictures, lol

 

[JanS]

I forgot to include pictures

My friend (Lisa) was thinking about and she said it could be a food allergy since other dogs have been prone to it with that brand.

 

[Katyusharocket]

My friend (Lisa) was thinking about and she said it could be a food allergy since other dogs have been prone to it with that brand.

It certainly could be. It's hard to rule anything out until there is success. She does better on the limited ingredient kind. I had to feed her the regular kind that the other dogs eat for 2 meals because I didnt plan my purchase timing well enough and she instantly broke a bald patches. Maybe its time to drastically change her diet, though.

 

[JanS]

Maybe its time to drastically change her diet, though.

I don't know if you like to order it, but this is a really good food. We don't feed it but I know quite a few who do with great results. We do feed their freeze dried treats though (so does Steph) and those are also really good for them.

Muenster Ancient Grains Dog Food | Gluten-free Sorghum & Millet

Our Ancient Grains dry dog food includes locally-grown gluten-free sorghum and millet, fresh meat, and superfoods such as coconut and quinoa.

muensterpet.com

 

[Katyusharocket]

I used to feed a raw meal topper. I think i will at least start by having that on hand again. I always treat them something just for walking thru the door when I say "inside ". That treat might as well be a freeze dried raw one.

 

[JanS]

That treat might as well be a freeze dried raw one.

They have some super good sales from time to time so that's the best time to jump on it.

 

[MichiH]

I agree that timing is pretty important, but these days, that can be tough. I called for an appointment after her heat to get it when the timing would have been about right. They said they were booked out until the end of July when she was due to come in heat again. I was a bit persistent and they found a cancellation for mid May, and that's the one I jumped on while I had the chance.

Agree I have had the worst time getting a spay date. I’m going to aim for Jan / feb, but it may be too far out to schedule now.

 

[MichiH]

Pepper bled and then had some light discharge for around ten days. The past two days nothing at all. She’s still considered to be in heat for another 3 weeks? Or at least I should make sure she’s watched?

Her previous heats she’s bled/ had discharge for around 3 weeks.

 

[Ravenbird]

She’s still considered to be in heat for another 3 weeks? Or at least I should make sure she’s watched?

I would not consider her out of heat, as far as leaving unsupervised goes, since I recall you have the invisible fence system. Asha has had a "split heat" where she only bled for a few days and then stopped and a couple of weeks later came back in and did a normal cycle. Hormones can be unpredictable, so it's not necessarily something wrong. And Pepper might be totally through but for safety, keep her supervised through at least through day 21.

 

[MichiH]

I would not consider her out of heat, as far as leaving unsupervised goes, since I recall you have the invisible fence system. Asha has had a "split heat" where she only bled for a few days and then stopped and a couple of weeks later came back in and did a normal cycle. Hormones can be unpredictable, so it's not necessarily something wrong. And Pepper might be totally through but for safety, keep her supervised through at least through day 21.

That’s what I was reading now and recalled Asha had a split heat.

Yes, she’s supervised for sure and I will keep it that way for a few more weeks.

I had a nightmare last week a dog came after her because she was in heat. I woke myself up sick to my stomach.