Spay and heat cycles

[Ravenbird]

I've heard in the last 5-10 years is that if you do plan to breed a female, it should be consecutive cycles for 3 or so litters, then retire them. Skipping a cycle used to be recommended since it was believed it was too hard on the female to have back to back litters.

I have read about that also, that reproductive vets are saying that if your bitch has a healthy normal whelping experience that breeding her back is better than skipping a cycle. Only recommended to skip a season if there were problems of any kind. They said they wished that breed clubs would address this as many of them state not breeding a bitch in consecutive heats is required or at least recommended. It's been a couple of years ago I read that, and can't recall the source, but it did surprise me.

 

[Katyusharocket]

I have read about that also, that reproductive vets are saying that if your bitch has a healthy normal whelping experience that breeding her back is better than skipping a cycle. Only recommended to skip a season if there were problems of any kind. They said they wished that breed clubs would address this as many of them state not breeding a bitch in consecutive heats is required or at least recommended. It's been a couple of years ago I read that, and can't recall the source, but it did surprise me.

I'm reading this, and believe it, but getting my emotions around having it go that way, back to back breedings, is tough.

 

[Ravenbird]

back to back breedings, is tough.

yes, especially in todays market for puppies - finding & approving homes can't be easy. All that said, I don't think it's necessarily detrimental to skip to the next year, so much as they were saying that it might be beneficial (health-wise to the dam) to go back to back. If I remember right, it's the breeder that you got her from that you are obligated to produce a litter, then after that it is your decision how to go forward?

 

[Katyusharocket]

If I remember right, it's the breeder that you got her from that you are obligated to produce a litter, then after that it is your decision how to go forward?

Yes, you do remember correctly. I am obligated to one litter, and the timing of even that one is up to me. After that, if she doesn't love motherhood, or whatever other reason, we decide how it goes.
Edit: "we" means Zastava and I, not the breeder and I

 

[JanS]

but getting my emotions around having it go that way, back to back breedings, is tough.

That and living in this state would almost surely mean one winter litter which could be a challenge.

 

[Ravenbird]

winter litter which could be a challenge

For sure. Another reason to always look at the big picture and your own situation, not just what the books say!

 

[Rits]

Had Zastava gotten pregnant during her last heat, her due date would have been Thursday-ish. Friday she blew two new bald spots, symmetrical, on each back leg. I used to think i was going to be able to fix the balding with diet and environmental changes, but i no longer think so. I am going to look more into red raspberry leaf tea treatment and how thats best done.

Have you had her thyroid checked? A full panel. Hair loss is common with thyroid issues, among other things. I see you mentioned doing OFA's so I'm sure you have since its required for the breed but thought I'd mention that just in case!

 

[Katyusharocket]

Have you had her thyroid checked? A full panel. Hair loss is common with thyroid issues, among other things. I see you mentioned doing OFA's so I'm sure you have since its required for the breed but thought I'd mention that just in case!

That's a good question, and yes, that is coming up, but hasn't been checked yet. On her first heat cycle (and hair loss episode) I did ask her vet about it and his attitude was that other symptoms come along with thyroid other than hair loss and I could almost quote him as saying that one knows it when they're looking at a thyroid problem dog and she ain't one of them (based on the energy levels displayed at the time of playing around in the exam room). But yes, thyroid is one of the OFA requirements I can do before 2 years old, and I plan to have that blood draw done before new year. I hope the vet is right but it will be nice to have the test results so no one has to wonder anymore. In that vet's defense i should probably mention that Z shares 3 vets at her clinic and all of them have been dismissive of a thyroid problem for her. Crossing fingers hoping they are all correct in their thinking... and will know for sure soon.

 

[Ravenbird]

A full panel thyroid in Dobermans is always a good idea since they are prone to thyroid problems and there can be a plythoria of vague symptoms.

Here's a great article about hair loss - you'll have to skim through what doesn't apply, but sure enough, unilateral hair loss in flanks or back legs is there and both thyroid problems and hormones specific to intact females and males are mentioned. I'm a sucker for rabbit holes.

Among the interesting notes:

If the patient does not belong to a breed described as having a predisposition to an alopecic disease, it is important to investigate whether any littermates or related dogs have similar signs. *You've said you know at least one litter mate that came to stay with you, and you can also ask your breeder if she knows of any others in the family that have this.*

The patient’s sex can affect the incidence of certain diseases. Neuter status is important. If the patient is an intact female, any relationship between the alopecia and the estrus onset or cycle should be investigated.
Alopecia associated with gonadal disorders can occur in regularly cycling female dogs. Some affected individuals show alopecia characterized by hair loss in the collar region, rump, perineal area, and ventrum starting 4 to 6 weeks postestrus.19 Alopecia is associated with clinical signs of overt pseudopregnancy. Hair typically regrows spontaneously following the resolution of pseudopregnancy, either with or without therapeutic intervention; however, recurrence is likely during subsequent estrous cycles. Persistent anestrus can be a valuable hint in intact female dogs with hyperadrenocorticism.
Intact female or male dogs (or dogs with cryptorchidism or ovarian remnants) can develop neoplasia of the gonads leading to alopecia due to increased hormonal production.

Generalized symmetric/bilateral noninflammatory alopecia of the trunk is common in patients with hypothyroidism and hyperadrenocorticism.

Here's the whole article - it's in depth but very readable:

https://todaysveterinarypractice.com/dermatology/understanding-and-treating-canine-alopecic-dermatoses/#:~:text=Intact%20female%20or%20male%20dogs,due%20to%20increased%20hormonal%20production.

 

[Rits]

That's a good question, and yes, that is coming up, but hasn't been checked yet. On her first heat cycle (and hair loss episode) I did ask her vet about it and his attitude was that other symptoms come along with thyroid other than hair loss and I could almost quote him as saying that one knows it when they're looking at a thyroid problem dog and she ain't one of them (based on the energy levels displayed at the time of playing around in the exam room). But yes, thyroid is one of the OFA requirements I can do before 2 years old, and I plan to have that blood draw done before new year. I hope the vet is right but it will be nice to have the test results so no one has to wonder anymore. In that vet's defense i should probably mention that Z shares 3 vets at her clinic and all of them have been dismissive of a thyroid problem for her. Crossing fingers hoping they are all correct in their thinking... and will know for sure soon.

That is what my vet thought too. A lot of vets seem to think its an older dog thing or only presented with lack of energy, but then here's Ripley. Still acting like a spunky puppy at 2 with my vet thinking it wasn't thyroid related. I pushed for a full panel after she had coat thinning issues along her trunk and rear legs. Her results came back inconclusive/equivocal by OFA. Technically not hypothyroid by OFA. According to the ranges given at the bottom of the results, she's technically not hypothyroid; her TSH was on the high end but everything else was normal. TSH is the thyroid stimulating hormone that your thyroid pumps out to stimulate the thyroid to produce more hormones so my thinking was this was very, very, early an underactive thyroid. Her very first holter showed slightly elevated singles. I had reached out to other breeders and found in my own research that an early underactive thyroid can affect the heart and throw #s on a holter. It made sense. So I brought this up to my vet and she agreed we could start on an incredibly low, low dose of medication, then re-test the thyroid and holter in 3 months and see what happens. That was 3 years ago. She's had perfect holters and thyroid panels since! We re-test every year to keep an eye but she remains on this really low dose. Her hair issues resolved within a month or so too.

If Z does come back similar to Ripley, you'll want to make sure to choose a male that has a perfectly unquestionably clear thyroid panel that was tested within the last 6 months prior to breeding. A lot of breeders for some reason think health testing is a one and done thing once they pass OFA and honestly, besides the hips/elbows (and obviously DNA markers)...the rest should be checked at minimum, annually, and ideally within 6 months of breeding to have the best picture and be able to make the best decisions for breeding.

 

[Katyusharocket]

I pushed for a full panel after she had coat thinning issues along her trunk and rear legs. Her results came back inconclusive/equivocal by OFA.

Just curious, was her coat thinning running along with her heat cycles?

Made the appointment this morning, she goes in for the OFA thyroid blood draw at 10 am on January 6th. I was advised to have her fast starting the evening before the draw. I couldn't find that on the OFA application, but I just had a few seconds to skim over it, too. It was the first time I had heard that, and wonder about others? Have any of you been instructed/advised to have the dog fast?

In any case, I will be able to rule it in or out in mid January sometime. Glad I got the ball rolling on the OFA stuff, it feels pretty good to have done so.

I will also see if I can get a good picture of Z to post here, so you all can see what her balding looks like and how some of the pre-heat ones are restoring.

 

[Rits]

It was the first time I had heard that, and wonder about others?

Fasting is preferred for best results. The OFA site goes into detail on everything: Thyroid | OFA

was her coat thinning running along with her heat cycles?

Yes and I thought it was due to her heat also! Hopefully this isn't your issue but if not, it is an easy fix and better to be aware and know... than not so you can be able to better choose a male for her.

 

[JanS]

Her results came back inconclusive/equivocal by OFA. Technically not hypothyroid by OFA. According to the ranges given at the bottom of the results, she's technically not hypothyroid; her TSH was on the high end but everything else was normal.

That's exactly how Olive's came back. I was going to have her rechecked when I had her in the other day but they said as long as everything else is normal (it is) and I'm not breeding her I really don't need to spend the money for the TSH again.

 

[Katyusharocket]

this is what she looks like. The ones filling back in were pre-heat. The ones that are newer occurred after heat was gone.

 

[Katyusharocket]

Fasting is preferred for best results. The OFA site goes into detail on everything: Thyroid | OFA

goo to know. Thank you for the link. It's my first time trying to navigate this process, so I appreciate the help.

 

[JanS]

The ones that are newer occurred after heat was gone.

Has your vet done a skin scrape to rule everything else out?

 

[Katyusharocket]

Has your vet done a skin scrape to rule everything else out?

No, that hasn't been mentioned yet.

 

[JanS]

No, that hasn't been mentioned yet.

I would ask them when you have her in. It doesn't cost much and it can tell you a lot.

 

[Katyusharocket]

I would ask them when you have her in. It doesn't cost much and it can tell you a lot.

That's insightful. I will send the clinic pics and ask if we can get one at her blood draw.

 

[Rits]

That's exactly how Olive's came back. I was going to have her rechecked when I had her in the other day but they said as long as everything else is normal (it is) and I'm not breeding her I really don't need to spend the money for the TSH again.

I would see about putting her on a very low dose of thyroid meds then to preserve her thyroid and heart function then re-test in 3 months to make sure its the right dose of medication.

goo to know. Thank you for the link. It's my first time trying to navigate this process, so I appreciate the help.

No problem! I am curious though, is your breeder not mentoring you and able to answer these questions since they are the ones breeding her? I mean no offense and don't mind at all helping someone without a mentor. However, her breeder should be able to answer these questions since they have been breeding already and if not, it does make one pause a bit.