Bullmastiffs

[Rits]

I've been trying to tease out as much information as I can about the Central Asian Shepherd – information as to whether it could be a livable and good pet for my family. I think my only real hope is that breeder in MI and the fact that they seem to have dogs from lines that are more mellow and perhaps toned down some. Still, I worry that trying to keep one in a small yard, even though I already cannot leave my current dog in the backyard for more than a few minutes because he will bark, would be problematic.This, and the idea that I hear repeated that the CAS will not accept visitors once it is mature, despite your best training.

Keep in mind that the Black Russian Terrier has been bobbling around in my top five. The other night I was at the nearby park at around midnight with Oji so I could do some chinups at my chinup tree. Of course, parks are closed at this hour. We do not have cops that do anything resembling patrolling in this city, nor is there security patrol. So I was not worried about getting flack for being there so late, but I just naturally always do not want to be detected. It's just a thing with me. I want to be incognito there, even from any other visitors that might show up in a car, some 75 - 100 yards away. I just don't want attention or to be noticed or be watched. So, this is an example of why I love dark, preferably black dogs. Did you know that they say the reason the BRT has the fall (the hair that covers its eyes) is so that at night the enemy could not see light shining off the dogs' eyes? That night, there at the chinup tree, I was picturing having a CAS, which would likely be mostly white in color. My mind went to having either a dark Cane Corso or a BRT.

The BRT is going to be more trainable and biddable than the CAS, though it will be less biddable than the Doberman. I feel that I can expect a BRT to accept visitors to the house when I command it to.

No small thing here: I spoke on the phone today with a breeder. I did ask one key question: Whining and barking. I was assured that the BRT was designed to work silently, and they are not whiny or barky.

Yes, the breed has its drawbacks.

Its beard and other hair below its mouth is often wet – not having nasty "slingers" that mastiffs get, but wet with clear, thin saliva.

It does not have cropped ears. I love cropped ears, and have been looking at breeds that have nice short cropped ears that do not require much, if any, posting. Nice thing is the BRT's floppy ears don't look large or stand out much due to the large appearance of the hairy head.

It has a lot of fur on the paws and legs that will attract moisture and mud when wet outside.

IT LOOKS QUITE A BIT LIKE A LARGE BLACK "DOODLE" (Part B to this, is that it isn't that intimidating or at least fearsome looking). That said, there is a large Doodle that lives nearby that is salt and pepper colored and is tall like a BRT. It acts pretty dominant and has a deep bark. I actually would not mess with that dog. At least a BRT has the fall over the eyes, and the beard to set it apart and add substance and perhaps a touch of visual intimidation. Maybe I could frequently have it wear proudly the Russian-harkening red sash:

View attachment 125227
above photo credit: Guardian Bear Kennel (which has not responded to my inquiries)

Oh, this breeder that called me back today (not the breeder of the dogs pictured above) does not dock tails. Shoot. The docked tail was one thing that was going to set the dog apart just a bit from a Doodle. On the other hand, I do lend credence to the argument that the tail aids in balance. Truthfully, I see Oji stumble and fall over a very surprising amount when running around. Maybe this is due to him being so narrow and lacking lateral stability owing to that, but I bet he would be aided by a tail. Shoot though. A docked tail takes away that wagging tail that most people interpret as a friendly, happy thing; and of course, an intact tail technically can be grabbed by the bad guys (though it's perhaps more important in Dobes because where Dobes might be 85 lbs., BRTs might be 120 lbs. That's 50% more bodyweight for a bad guy to try to control via a tail).

As usual: Hmmm. Thoughts?

Those BRTs remind me of Bouviers. Bouviers have very short cropped ears and docked tails. They are classified as herding dogs but are used for guarding and police work.

 

[Ravenbird]

Oji, I actually saw a photo of a BRT in bite sports a couple of weeks ago & thought of you, wondering if you'd considered that breed. Then I thought of the hair & decided you'd left it out for that reason & promptly forgot about it. Same with the Bouvier that @Rits mentions. Good working dogs, if you get the right breeding. I know one Bouvier which was purchased for a service dog and can do everything asked of it in-house, but way too defensive outside in public. Was not trained properly from the beginning, but had good potential, and would have made a great protection dog. She keeps the Bouveir shaved short with just a little fringe on the head, kind of like a Schnauzer. Which brings me to that breed - There are giant Schnauzers bred for protection too. Since you want a big black dog for impressive looks these all fit the bill & would be easier to live with (in my opinion) and easier trainability than a CAS.

 

[Ravenbird]

Giant Schnauzer:

 

[Rits]

Giant Schnauzer:

View attachment 125231

Funny you post this pic! I've met this GS! He was just a young guy then, maybe a year old. My father is friends with the guy that is the head of this corrections group. Very sharp dog... I'm sure there are a variety of degrees of types of GS when it comes to sharpness as there are with dobermans. I believe Max was hand stripped to keep his hair short.



At shows next to the doberman, the GS automatically draw my eye. They certainly look impressive and they have the fringe look too going above their eyes that hides reflection.

 

[Ravenbird]

Good looking for sure! I just read up on the Bouvier breed and I'm not too impressed, but I've always loved a GS. The one Bouv I know is really flaky and overly reactive which I *think* is lack of training, but could be personality and the fact that he was supposed to be a service dog and has no outlet for his energy.

 

[Rnrgyrl]

Rocco is 9 months now. Rotty n cane corse

 

[Ravenbird]

Love his brindle feet! Pretty laid back in the house?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Rocco is 9 months now. Rotty n cane corse

He's cool looking, and yes, the markings on his legs and paws are so neat!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Thanks, @Rits and @Ravenbird !

I will look anew and again at the Bouvier and the Giant Schnauzer. I had moved past them both.

The GS: It just seems to me that I find too many that are just too small looking and their crop would be in the range of a Dobe's for posting duration. Also, they could be similar in energy level to a Dobe, and prey driven, and I'd like to move away from that. FYI, the GS is one of the key foundational breeds that went into the BRT.

The Bouvier: I don't recall if there just weren't enough breeders around or what. I don't want a herding dog, really. I considered the crop to be about the same length as the GS's and some Dobe crops. Maybe I'm wrong. The height, listed by AKC as 24.5 - 26.5 for males, and weight as low as 70 (oh, I guess that would be for females) also deterred me.

So, now we go back to, why not a dark colored Cane Corso? Next to no ear posting, yet a killer looking crop.

The areas I run into turmoil with the Corso are:

The height will probably be not quite what I want – might be 26 or if I'm lucky, 27.

Possible drool

That tail issue. Blast the tail issue. It seems the vast majority of people are what I call "tail blind." You see docks on these breeds that vary wildly, and no one seems to care or say anything about it. The Corso is a very waggy breed, and a long docked tail looks just terrible!! I would far, far rather have an undocked tail than that! I haven't found any breeder that would agree to this, or assure me they will give a nice short dock. One breeder says she agrees with me on the long dock thing, but I saw a pic of a recent pup from her and I wasn't so sure about the length.

 

[Ravenbird]

The Bouvier: I don't recall if there just weren't enough breeders around or what. I don't want a herding dog, really. I considered the crop to be about the same length as the GS's and some Dobe crops. Maybe I'm wrong. The height, listed by AKC as 24.5 - 26.5 for males, and weight as low as 70 (oh, I guess that would be for females) also deterred me.

The Bouv I know - haha, you'll hate this - breeder didn't crop or dock. But he did mature out to just under 100 lbs. Again, I'm not pushing the breed anyway. Big & black and defensive is all he's got to offer, but I shouldn't judge the breed by meeting one dog. I might have liked him better if he'd been properly trained/socialized, but he makes Asha look well behaved with her occasional outbursts in public. And I don't think there are many working Bouv breeders - like Dobermans, they are now mostly show & non-bitey sports or pets.

I'd say the BRT and GS have a much shorter ear trim than Dobermans of today and would be way easier/faster to complete posting. Wonder if you could trim the BRT like the GS pictured? @Rits I groomed dogs back in the '80's (dang, that's really looking like a long time ago!) and it looks like a 10 blade on the clippers for that dog, shorter than usual, but seriously, that is one good looking dog. You know these people? I just chose the photo of the 'net for a working GS.

I know you like the Corsos - but I agree with you on drool and the non-standard, non-caring what length the tail is docked at. Some things for me are just not negotiable and I think it's the same for you.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Just a note: I stopped by a restaurant/bar yesterday and parked my bike in their back patio area where most tables were occupied. I'm looking to get one beer, and as I make my way to the bar to see what's on tap I notice a large, short-haired all-grey dog with floppy ears and sort of light colored eyes. After looking at it a few seconds, I figure it's a Cane Corso.

In retrospect, I wish I had stayed and talked to the two young women who had the dog there at the table; but I was in a hurry and limited on time. I went inside, as the outdoor bar was not open for some reason. After finding that the beer selection and pricing was not worth my time, I left. What I did, however, as I approached the outdoor bar, was I walked straight toward the dog assertively, only turning away and walking to my left when I was about 2.5 or 3 feet away from the dog. I was testing it. This is only the second Corso I have seen in town, and it acted just like the first I saw/tested. It stared at me with that intense Corso stare that I have actually read about and it didn't back up or move at all. If it was fearful, it did not show it.

Really, it would probably not have been worth my time to try to talk to the two 20-something young women. Given the type of bar this is, and given that one of the girls had a large logo on the back of her sweatshirt that read "PAWS" I am sure this was a "rescue" dog and my breed-specific questions would not have fallen on ears that would understand or appreciate it. I imagine I would have heard the garden variety "He was rescued from a situation where he was abused by a man, so he is afraid of all men."

Still, I wish I had been able to spend more time around the dog. I did see that it actually had a fairly short nice looking dock and when I looked at it, it was not wagging.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Just interesting. You may laugh, but from time to time my very active thinking about which breed for our next dog comes back to...

Doberman!

My wife is like: What if we got a nice show Doberman that was much less high energy than Oji? I'm like: Pretty much all Dobermans are going to be whiney. But then I remembered my first Dobe (from a hobby breeder, nothing to speak of in terms of impressive pedigree at all, but still my best Dobe yet). I tried to remember his level of whining. It certainly was better than my working Dobes.

Anyway, in my ideal scenario I'd wind up with a nice large, impressive looking Euro Dobe that was lower energy due to its size and being from show lines. Yeah, yeah, it might be over the breed standard in size and I get all that that implies. Well, I have not yet found a source for such a Dobe that doesn't seem sketchy.

So I'm poking around online tonight and I am really surprised at something I found: This breeder is like 20 or so miles from me. They have, it seems upon my initial inspection of website, mostly Euros and some that are NA and Euro. All their breeding dogs have health test results on DCM 1 & 2, DM (I'm not too familiar with this) and VWD, and... I only recall seeing Holter results on one so far. But anyway. Maybe some of you can remind me what it is important to seek in terms of heart testing. I see they are also doing the DNA testing, which it is implied, screens for diseases.

I have been looking at pup prices in other breeds from 3k, 3.5k to 4k and up. To my surprise, this breeder has a limited reg. price of $2.5k and this includes ear crop from Dr. Midgarten! I'm kind of blown away by this.

Oh, and they recommend waiting to neuter until at least 2 years!! Woo Hoo!! They also have some info. that seems like sound thinking on dogs – like maybe they have their heads on straight.

I know only a few of you visit this thread, but I'd welcome your thoughts.

FAQ | Van Dutches Doberman

www.vandutchesdobermans.com

 

[Ravenbird]

Pretty much all Dobermans are going to be whiney. But then I remembered my first Dobe (from a hobby breeder, nothing to speak of in terms of impressive pedigree at all, but still my best Dobe yet). I tried to remember his level of whining. It certainly was better than my working Dobes.

Anyway, in my ideal scenario I'd wind up with a nice large, impressive looking Euro Dobe that was lower energy due to its size and being from show lines. Yeah, yeah, it might be over the breed standard in size and I get all that that implies. Well, I have not yet found a source for such a Dobe that doesn't seem sketchy.

My thoughts - I'm short on time this morning, so may add more later... Dobermans did not use to whine. My housemate showed Dobes in junior showmanship in the 1950's - she had 5 of them through the early '60's. She said never once did her dogs whine. My first two were born in 1983-ish and 1992. Not a peep out of either one EVER. When I first started looking at Dobermans again 4 years ago I saw hundreds if not thousands of comments on whining. I truly thought it was humans who didn't know how to tell a dog to hush and back up the command and be done with it. I know better now, it's definitely a breed trait and they almost all do it because they are almost all related! You'll be lucky indeed to avoid it.

I can just about assure you that there will not be lower energy due to size & show lines. Maybe not explosive energy, and a better off-switch, but I think any Doberman will have pretty high energy. What changes with show lines is less suspicion of surroundings, less reactive barking. When you think of the Doberman being bred for a personal protection dog, it was built around defense of space. What ever space you are in with your dog, the dog is ever watchful and alert to anyone/anything that doesn't fit into its comfort zone. As you know, to fit into show zones, they bred much of this out.

Since this breeder is so close, it would be fun for you to go visit just to see what the dogs are like. Personally, a few flags turn me off. 1. They are asserting that clear of the DNA for DCM 1 & 2 means a pass and it doesn't. Many dogs that are clear on those two genes develop DCM and many who have copies of those genes never do. It's a marker, but it's not the whole story. But at least they test. 2. Too many litters, and they do nothing with the breeding stock except breed. They don't show or do sports, no titles. 3. Retired breeding stock gets re-homed. Nope, nope, nope. This screams "No free-loading for a non-$-producer" on the place. Like I said, busy morning... I'll go back and look at the website more carefully, but at a glance that's what I saw. I'm a nosy witch though, and if it was in my area and they welcomed visitors I'd have to go look.

 

[CRDobe]

I've never had a Dobe that whined. My current girl has very high ball, stick and squirrel drive but has a great off switch.

And I agree with Ravenbird, not a breeder I would consider.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Yes, I forgot to add last night that I realize they don't do anything with their Dobes in terms of showing or working. I guess that as long as they are breeding healthy dogs of sound and proper temperament and they are not overcharging for them, I'm okay with that.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I've never had a Dobe that whined. My current girl has very high ball, stick and squirrel drive but has a great off switch.

And I agree with Ravenbird, not a breeder I would consider.

You've never had a Dobe that whined? That is truly incredible to me!! Especially since she has those high drives you mentioned!

 

[Rits]

I guess that as long as they are breeding healthy dogs of sound and proper temperament and they are not overcharging for them, I'm okay with that.

I'd need holters done, hips, elbows, eyes at minimum. Thyroid, liver, and kidneys are important in this breed too.. basically it looks like they just paid for Embark and called it a day.

Part of proper temperament to me means they should be steady enough to title or show in some venue. The dog can keep it's mind together in neutral situations and be obedient in higher stress environments. Not having that on breeding stock, I would be going off their word alone on how the dog handles situations. That's why titling is good.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I'd need holters done, hips, elbows, eyes at minimum. Thyroid, liver, and kidneys are important in this breed too.. basically it looks like they just paid for Embark and called it a day.

Part of proper temperament to me means they should be steady enough to title or show in some venue. The dog can keep it's mind together in neutral situations and be obedient in higher stress environments. Not having that on breeding stock, I would be going off their word alone on how the dog handles situations. That's why titling is good.

True and good points, all, Rits.

I guess one might say I've lowered my standards – ha. Really though, many of the breeders of other breeds that I've looked at don't do full health testing and don't work, or even show, their dogs. Now, some of them are charging upwards of $3k and I shake my head at that.

This breeder in question here does do the DCM 1 & 2 testing, and while I understand that is a limited thing in that dogs can still have DCM with negatives on those tests, I just wanted to make sure you didn't miss that this breeder says they do that test.

In my experience, the "good" breeders of Dobermans, who check those boxes on health testing, showing or working, well, they are the breeders that are most times never going to get back to you unless you have some sort of "in" with them. Emails and phone calls are for naught. This, in the Doberman breeder realm. (Edit: Well, I've also found it in the Cane Corso Realm, and the Boerboel realm, and others). I'm so tired of that. I've had to crawl and beg enough times to get jobs in my life. I am tired of doing it to try to buy a puppy. I guess I'm willing to take a chance on a breeder who doesn't meet all those good breeder prerequisites but will treat you like a human being. That remains to be seen with this breeder, as I haven't reached out to them in any form yet. I was wowed by the fact they use Ann Midgarten for cropping, and they charge $2.5k in this current world of rising puppy prices.

I have run into the same thing with BRT breeders, save one, who actually called me back like an hour after I left her a message. She does health testing and, I'm almost sure, probably charges considerably more than I can afford for pups. Yet she spent 10+ minutes on the phone as I told her a bit about myself, and she told me about her program and she listened as I asked one major question: How is the BRT on barking and whining? Our potential working relationship was left at: Would you please fill out a puppy application, and she did say she "gives preference" to applicants who will put a CGC on the dogs. Anyway, just pointing out an anomaly in the world of prestigious breeders.

I telly ya though: My Dobes thus far have died in their eighth year, from a good breeder or not; and my current boy, while still healthy at almost eight, his sister who was kept by his breeder a her new breeding bitch died a year, or more, ago from lymphoma. The breeder does all the health testing and is very much into health research in the breed. Needless to say, they were shocked and discouraged. In my mind, if I wind up with a strong, capable, Dobe of sound temperament who is biddable (Oji, not so much on that) who does not suffer from hip or other noticeable health problems, but dies at 8? I'm doing fine. I just get to get another dog at that point.

But yes, titling the breeding stock would indeed provide me some peace of mind. Confo. showing, less so. I can took at and assess the structure and movement of the sire and dam, and hopefully the grandsire and granddam.

But yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at. I appreciate the input, and I welcome more!

 

[Rits]

, I just wanted to make sure you didn't miss that this breeder says they do that test.

I didn't! Those are tests that are included with the embark all in one DNA testing via cheek swab that anyone can do. While it's great they do that, all it is is information for future breeders and research at this point. It currently doesn't provide much for you as a buyer in the terms of health. Basically, it's below bare minimum to look like something is done. Embark itself isn't sketchy but you will often see sketchy breeders only use those tests to look like they are doing something and call it a day. There's more necessary health testing than that... But to the unknowing or informed buyer, it looks good!

 

[JanS]

but from time to time my very active thinking about which breed for our next dog comes back to...

Doberman!

There you go! I think after being used to a Dobermans intelligence you might be a little disappointed with other breeds, even though there are many nice ones.
I'd personally want a little more health testing than this breeder has but at least they're doing some like holter, etc. Both Ripley and Phoebe recently had their Embark testing done but if I ever considered breeding and even if I don't there would have to be a lot more.
They also have an excellent crop vet.

The dogs look nice but they could use better photos at better angles.