Bullmastiffs

In fact, I know @Gelcoater has a few times posted a pic of a big old Tibetan Mastiff lunging and I wonder how the Caucasian Shepherd compares to that breed in terms of ultimate toughness and aggressive, damaging potential. I did see somewhere how the two breeds are related to each other, but I forget how.

I do know that I've also heard it posited that the Central Asian Shepherd (Alabai), which goes back some 3 - 5 thousand years, is the foundation of all Mastiffs. Doesn't get much more "O.G." than that, now does it kids?

So, Central Asian Shepherd (or Alabai):

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and Caucasian Shepherd:

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and Tibetan Mastiff:

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Ha!
I think I got you going with a couple pics I sent you yesterday
Such a handsome guy.
Tried getting a good shot of those paws. He wasn’t having it the lil wiggly worm.
Miguel needs to handle his paws more to get him used to it.




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Dude was adorable, both my dogs were giving me the thorough inspection when I got home because this guys scent was all over me.
I’ll have to ask exactly what he is, I’m pretty sure he is a Corso. I heard his father is a pretty good hog hunter.
Believe it or not in So Cal.
 
Ha!
I think I got you going with a couple pics I sent you yesterday
Such a handsome guy.
Tried getting a good shot of those paws. He wasn’t having it the lil wiggly worm.
Miguel needs to handle his paws more to get him used to it.




View attachment 123734View attachment 123735View attachment 123736View attachment 123737
Dude was adorable, both my dogs were giving me the thorough inspection when I got home because this guys scent was all over me.
I’ll have to ask exactly what he is, I’m pretty sure he is a Corso. I heard his father is a pretty good hog hunter.
Believe it or not in So Cal.
Yeah, I was guessing last night it might be a Corso, but I don't see paw size that supports it being a large breed pup, so hmmm. I'm sure it's a cool dog, but I have to say the tail is docked way too long.

Too funny about Rocky and Millie giving you the inspection!
 
A while back, I was struck by the amount of unreasonable snowflakey people I was surrounded by in a Mastiff facebook group. This was brought to light by the idea of cropped ears sneaking in (not sneaked in by me – ha).

I have felt, as I said above, much more "at home" in the Central Asian Shepherd group; however it is still facebook and it is still the topic of dogs. The crazy is there. It doesn't just vanish.

Today, not surprisingly, I had a couple women come at me after I called them on being rude. Yeah, yeah, I know it's facebook and it's part and parcel; but I still don't tolerate it. Unimportant, really.

Here's the thing though: I had asked the question about the CAS accepting new people. I have heard several times that that breed will not accept strangers or new people in the home once the dog is mature. It doesn't matter if you introduce the person or not. This, of course, is problematic if true. It's entirely untenable in most people's lives. I may be antisocial, but it still becomes necessary for your dog to come into contact with new people.

Folks say that the breed does not take orders from humans in this regard. It decides for itself. That may sound good in some ways, but think about it. Accidents happen. Dogs get loose from closed rooms, crates and yards. Seems to me folks are harboring very dangerous arrangements if all this is true about the breed.

Looking at the opposite aspect of this: If your CAS will not accept instruction from you on accepting people, it will also not accept instruction from people on rejecting people. Say you were in a dangerous situation and you needed your dog to step up and protect. Nothing you said would get the dog to be suspicious of, or protective against, the bad guy.

Anyway, it is incredible to me that people are actually claiming that they keep these dogs in their homes and on their properties and they have zero control over whether the dog(s) will attack a human. MIghtn't you as well keep a wild wolf as a pet, or a leopard or some other wild animal? If you have two or three 130 lb. CASs who by virtue of their genetic makeup as a breed will not accept your command or direction to not attack someone, and it is their innate tendency to attack a stranger in their territory, you have at least the deadly weapon as if you harbored a mountain lion as your pet.

I did not anywhere as explicitly lay out this position in the group, but I did allude to it. Some people hold that their CASs are more moderate than that (of course, I know individual dogs vary); and some are like yep, that's the way it is. If you don't like it, don't get this breed. If it is true, how in the world can there be breeders with websites selling these dogs to the general public? Yes, they should vet potential owners, but I see customer reviews on one breeder's site indicating the people are first time dog owners and bought from them. With still other reviews, it is clear the customers are not serious dog people. It just doesn't add up.
 
um, I'm sure it's a breed generalization. Like with Dobes: assume they'll have SSA, assume they'll be velcro to their family and suspicious of new people, assume they'll go through a doberteens phase, assume they'll have prey drive, etc.

It generally comes with the breed so be prepared for it but of course there are exceptions would be how I read into it?
 
I just googled "CAS trainability" and the bottom line seems to be quite a bit of warning that these dogs are independent and take a lot of convincing to do things your way. If you have trouble keeping Oji from exploding at movement outside the house, I imagine one of these will make Oji look like a piece of cake. I looked at a couple of the sights, but this one seemed like it was trying to say it in a nice way, but repeatedly encouraged diligence in training. LOL, then the paragraph on shedding. I guess I'm such a Doberman fan, nothing about this breed sounds appealing to me....

 
I just googled "CAS trainability" and the bottom line seems to be quite a bit of warning that these dogs are independent and take a lot of convincing to do things your way. If you have trouble keeping Oji from exploding at movement outside the house, I imagine one of these will make Oji look like a piece of cake. I looked at a couple of the sights, but this one seemed like it was trying to say it in a nice way, but repeatedly encouraged diligence in training. LOL, then the paragraph on shedding. I guess I'm such a Doberman fan, nothing about this breed sounds appealing to me....

When you mentioned Oji exploding a movement outside the house, I was like "ding." That is the precise issue I have been considering thinking about the last two days with regard to breed choice.

I need a dog that I can tell what the freak not to do! If the CAS is so dang independent, and worse, if you can't really effectively issue a correction to them (I am still trying to find out credible information on how CAS respond to corrections) how in the world will I deal with what will probably be a barking-at-front-windows problem??

These are the types of practical issues I am starting to consider more and more. I need a biddable dog for our lifestyle, where my dear wife doesn't think we need a dog at all (so, any dog problem is magnified) and we have a child that naps, and I stay up later than the rest of the house – so exploding at the windows is a hard NO! Running across the house, scratching the floors, to get to said windows is a MASSIVE problem already in our household.
 
Well, the CAS potentially offered us:

Very nice height. I would not have to be too worried about winding up with a dog that's too short. (I didn't used to care so much about height, but I really do nowadays)

Natural guarding that is said to be some of the best, albeit not as able to be honed and directed as with many of the fine guardian breeds

Fairly low energy

Not nearly as much whining as the Doberman

Hopefully a lot less barking than the Doberman

Much better suited to handle cold weather

Much better suited to handle hot weather

Less aversion to swimming

Ears would be cropped by breeder, and NO POSTING required!!!

Tail docked, and although it is a long dock, it doesn't look as bad as the long Corso and Boerboel docks, and the CAS is somewhat less waggy

Fairly healthy breed

A dog that is independent (which doesn't come without it's drawbacks) but the dog might be more content to just BE, and to do its thing instead of constantly looking to us for activity!

A stoic, noble animal – not a whiny diva!

I already spoke to a well-known breeder some 6 hours away, and she is very responsive. She health tests, and recommends leaving the dog INTACT unless a health reason arises!
 
I already spoke to a well-known breeder some 6 hours away, and she is very responsive. She health tests, and recommends leaving the dog INTACT unless a health reason arises!
Are you going to go for it?
 
Are you going to go for it?
Why, you gonna kick me outa here? ;) :lolsign:

No, it is still way up in the air.

What we talked about just a bit above does have me worried about taking on such an independent, natural breed. What I picture, basically, is my wife's late Husky but with a ton more size and guarding instinct.

If we had a CAS, and it had the problem where it would run to the front of the house and bark every time it spotted an animal, we might have a real problem. I need to be able to tell my dog NO!! I am still quite unclear on how able I would be to do that.
 
Embark website - you'll have to search around - but they list like 200 health tests that are on the DNA - and also will break it down by the ones most pertinent to your breed. Some are indicators but not PROVEN, so you have to study harder to understand that just because the gene isn't there, doesn't mean the dog will never develop that disease. DCM is one of those. 2 markers have been found but just because the dogs don't have either of those markers doesn't mean they will never have DCM. Von Willebrands though is very clear by DNA gene testing - If clear there is zero chance of getting it or passing it on, carrier means you will never have it but can pass it on to a litter if bred to another carrier and expressed means the dog will have the actual disease and pass it on if bred. So DNA is not always a yes or no, depending on the disease that gene is representing. On the Embark website you can insert your Bullmastiffs and see more detail. It's not simple, but it's very informative, especially if your breed of choice has many inherited diseases.
Very informative and appreciated, Ravenbird. I would hope I could simply ask the breeder for access to a view of the DNA test results so I can inspect them. I would also ask for the registered names of his breeding dogs so I could look up their pedigrees, or see if he can provide me with access to at least a 4-gen pedigree. I am most concerned with the possibility of inbreeding. I also want age of deaths.

This BM breeder I ran across today is Union Valley.

I have not been excited about Bullmastiffs for some time now, and I am still not, really. I want cropped ears! My number one option for BMs, though, was a woman out of Arkansas because the dogs she uses are not as brachycephalic and look and act pretty athletic for the breed. She fully health tests and does some confo. showing. I saw, however, that her pups are like $4500, and that's a NOPE for me.

So, today, I saw this Union V. guy and his dogs also are on the less brachy. side and he claims he breeds for ability to work and guard (I'd LOVE to, for once, see a decent shred of proof of a BM guarding) and though he does not health test or show, he touts these DNA tests and his pups are $2000 and $2500 (full AKC reg. on the latter)
 
I would hope I could simply ask the breeder for access to a view of the DNA test results so I can inspect them. I would also ask for the registered names of his breeding dogs so I could look up their pedigrees, or see if he can provide me with access to at least a 4-gen pedigree. I am most concerned with the possibility of inbreeding. I also want age of deaths.
I don't know much about Bullmastiffs, are they prone to lots of health problems like Dobermans? They should be open to sharing their DNA tests (not just tell you results) if they are responsible breeders. I don't know about any of the other companies except Embark since thats the one I used. Embark also included COI on my test, which was pretty deplorable, as most Dobes are. You can't get this from pedigree reading, only genetic testing. Here's more info:


If I ever get another Doberman I will go by longevity in the pedigree and COD over all else, but I would also want to read the DNA report.
 
Also, just my very humble opinion, the breeder with all the outdoor dogs, not my kinda deal. He raises and keeps them outdoors, has way too many, doesn't mention training or doing anything with them except breeding and testing and mentions "AKC DNA" which I had to look up:

quote from AKC:​

  • AKC DNA Profiling is for parentage verification and genetic identity purposes only.

and so he calls them AKC certified. Sounds like his bitches could be bred by one dog or another (or more?) and he has to have them DNA'd for parent identification.... this has nothing to do with a health review of genes! Just not my cuppa, but whatever. If you are going to have a house dog of this size I'd certainly want one born & raised in the home and socialized with people, vacuum cleaners, TV's etc. Something to think about.

Uh-oh. @Rits, tell me if I said too much about a breeder. Can't remember what got me out of line once, but I'm thinking it was a dogs name.
 
Also, just my very humble opinion, the breeder with all the outdoor dogs, not my kinda deal. He raises and keeps them outdoors, has way too many, doesn't mention training or doing anything with them except breeding and testing and mentions "AKC DNA" which I had to look up:

quote from AKC:​

  • AKC DNA Profiling is for parentage verification and genetic identity purposes only.

and so he calls them AKC certified. Sounds like his bitches could be bred by one dog or another (or more?) and he has to have them DNA'd for parent identification.... this has nothing to do with a health review of genes! Just not my cuppa, but whatever. If you are going to have a house dog of this size I'd certainly want one born & raised in the home and socialized with people, vacuum cleaners, TV's etc. Something to think about.

Uh-oh. @Rits, tell me if I said too much about a breeder. Can't remember what got me out of line once, but I'm thinking it was a dogs name.
Good points. Yeah, I wondered why he had a bitch nursing, and also "great grandma" nursing at the same time. I guess not necessarily damning, but hmm. I see also someone questioned how he got a litter of 14 pups. He said it's because the dogs live on an organic farm.
 
Crazy thing is, we have the opportunity to adopt a female Boerboel.
Our ...

Well shoot. Something went wrong with my post.
 
So, go on... tell us more!
Well, this morning I told the breeder no. This female was 2 1/2 years old and the family that bought her as a pup at about the standard age (8-10 weeks) has run into a situation where the need to rehome her. I never did find out exactly what it was, but I did hear she needs work on manners and needs a lot of attention. There were pics on the breeder's social media site of the dog, and a short video. It was shown with another dog of the same breed, and a large Pit Bull or American Bully, and also a little fru fru dog. We knew which litter she was from and thus could see her pedigree. She was spayed (the breeder did not reply when I asked at what age) and microchipped, etc. She was in a home with children and reputed to be great with kids.

I saw this as an opportunity to get our next dog. This breed is in my top three. It would have us avoiding potty training, and the young hyper puppy stage. We would get the dog for a $500 rehoming fee plus the cost of shipping half way across the country. So, this would be less than 1/2 the price of a pup.

She would have provided tons and tons of fun and stimulation and probably some great companionship for Oji. Ideally, I think it's good to bring in a dog while you still have the first dog. This way you have no lapse in having a guard dog (though, this girl seemed like such a sweetheart, I didn't bank on her being much of one, except for her being probably 150 lbs.)

We were concerned, however, that Oji might just obsess over her too much and lick and sniff all the time and perhaps get humpy. We had no way of testing this. We were concerned that their playing would leave even more scratches on the wood floors, and tear up the yard. We were concerned about the drool, though the breed is not usually nearly as bad as a Bullmastiff or English Mastiff, etc.

It sounded like she needed some remedial training, and along with what would be a general shakeup of my routine, I just didn't know if it was what I wanted to do. I have sleep problems, and we were concerned that at nighttime she would do things to disturb my/our sleep.

What's more, this would eliminate my ability, for years, to get a cropped dog :)

She is a good looking do though, and the owners were described as "desperately" needing to rehome; so I felt moved to pursue the idea.
 
I've been trying to tease out as much information as I can about the Central Asian Shepherd – information as to whether it could be a livable and good pet for my family. I think my only real hope is that breeder in MI and the fact that they seem to have dogs from lines that are more mellow and perhaps toned down some. Still, I worry that trying to keep one in a small yard, even though I already cannot leave my current dog in the backyard for more than a few minutes because he will bark, would be problematic.This, and the idea that I hear repeated that the CAS will not accept visitors once it is mature, despite your best training.

Keep in mind that the Black Russian Terrier has been bobbling around in my top five. The other night I was at the nearby park at around midnight with Oji so I could do some chinups at my chinup tree. Of course, parks are closed at this hour. We do not have cops that do anything resembling patrolling in this city, nor is there security patrol. So I was not worried about getting flack for being there so late, but I just naturally always do not want to be detected. It's just a thing with me. I want to be incognito there, even from any other visitors that might show up in a car, some 75 - 100 yards away. I just don't want attention or to be noticed or be watched. So, this is an example of why I love dark, preferably black dogs. Did you know that they say the reason the BRT has the fall (the hair that covers its eyes) is so that at night the enemy could not see light shining off the dogs' eyes? That night, there at the chinup tree, I was picturing having a CAS, which would likely be mostly white in color. My mind went to having either a dark Cane Corso or a BRT.

The BRT is going to be more trainable and biddable than the CAS, though it will be less biddable than the Doberman. I feel that I can expect a BRT to accept visitors to the house when I command it to.

No small thing here: I spoke on the phone today with a breeder. I did ask one key question: Whining and barking. I was assured that the BRT was designed to work silently, and they are not whiny or barky.

Yes, the breed has its drawbacks.

Its beard and other hair below its mouth is often wet – not having nasty "slingers" that mastiffs get, but wet with clear, thin saliva.

It does not have cropped ears. I love cropped ears, and have been looking at breeds that have nice short cropped ears that do not require much, if any, posting. Nice thing is the BRT's floppy ears don't look large or stand out much due to the large appearance of the hairy head.

It has a lot of fur on the paws and legs that will attract moisture and mud when wet outside.

IT LOOKS QUITE A BIT LIKE A LARGE BLACK "DOODLE" (Part B to this, is that it isn't that intimidating or at least fearsome looking). That said, there is a large Doodle that lives nearby that is salt and pepper colored and is tall like a BRT. It acts pretty dominant and has a deep bark. I actually would not mess with that dog. At least a BRT has the fall over the eyes, and the beard to set it apart and add substance and perhaps a touch of visual intimidation. Maybe I could frequently have it wear proudly the Russian-harkening red sash: :yatta::goodjob:

BRTredSash.JPG
above photo credit: Guardian Bear Kennel (which has not responded to my inquiries)

Oh, this breeder that called me back today (not the breeder of the dogs pictured above) does not dock tails. Shoot. The docked tail was one thing that was going to set the dog apart just a bit from a Doodle. On the other hand, I do lend credence to the argument that the tail aids in balance. Truthfully, I see Oji stumble and fall over a very surprising amount when running around. Maybe this is due to him being so narrow and lacking lateral stability owing to that, but I bet he would be aided by a tail. Shoot though. A docked tail takes away that wagging tail that most people interpret as a friendly, happy thing; and of course, an intact tail technically can be grabbed by the bad guys (though it's perhaps more important in Dobes because where Dobes might be 85 lbs., BRTs might be 120 lbs. That's 50% more bodyweight for a bad guy to try to control via a tail).

As usual: Hmmm. Thoughts?
 
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