"WZ" in AKC a Doberman Registration Number

[Ingrid H]

Now, in the spirit of being open-minded, I will question my own position here by saying: Is it better, if you are seeking a nighttime bodyguard, to have a black dog that is hard to see, or is it better to have a white dog that is easy to see?

I'll go with the black dog being better because the attacker won't know which direction to defend himself from if he can't see the dog in the dark. Even if the black dog is hard to see walking down the street by your side, a mugger is going to notice it. He's also going to be figuring out your gender, age, level of fitness, your potential wealth, your level of confidence, ability to fight back, likelihood that you are carrying a weapon... They don't just jump out of the bushes and attack the next person to come strolling along. They like a soft target.

 

[Doberman Gang]

I know all about this. Thank you for your responses. However, nobody seems to be reading my post in its entirely and answering questions I brought up, specifically: is the "Z" really an issue? Just because somebody says something it true, doesn't mean it is, without hard data to back up their assertions.

There is plenty of info out there on this subject. Reputable breeders only want to preserve the breed and produce healthy offspring. They spend much money on health testing before breeding. Z factor is just one thing when considering to breed. There is also breeding to the standard, does the dog possess proper structure, what is the dogs temperament. Is there a reason for not breeding the z factor dogs? Yes



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[Drogon]

Albino Dobermans are known to have temperament issues. They are sensitive to light which makes it difficult to train them. Take those two in combination and IMHO they wouldn't make a very good watch dog. Just put a glow in the dark collar and a white sheet on your Dobe lol

 

[FredC]

If people enjoy albinos so much why don't they try for a human albino child? How cool would that be? Nothing wrong with that right? Not really a genetic defect it just looks awesome right? rare and cool genetically defected albino child would be the coolest thing in going in grade school... why not get one of those way cooler than an albino dog.

My red Doberman was the product of a simple dilute not even an albino. He spent its whole life with skin conditions. Took years to diagnose and hundreds of dollars to finally determine he had a disease called Pemphigus an autoimmune issue, after that he spent the rest of his life on steroids. Eventually the steroids had a hand in giving him diabetes and spent the end of his life taking insulin shots twice daily to. This gave him cataracts and he was beginning to go blind. This dog was the product of a single dilute parent I would hate to think how bad he may have been had he been z factored. You already have the rolls of the AKC and the DPCA mixed up. Isn't it then possible that the experts in the Doberman pinscher club of America with decades and generations in some cases of experience are correct in telling you this is not a good idea? Possibly it was expressly prohibited by its parent club for a reason. But of course just about every Johnny-come-lately thinks they know better then the experts.
If you breed an albino Doberman you Will be considered scourge, outed and condemned at every opportunity by Doberman enthusiasts everywhere. As a breeder you will be considered a scumbag and loser by your peers. And worse yet no reputable breeder will let your stud touch their well bred bitches or vice versa. At best you will only be able to breed your dog to second rate prospects. You will get little support from anybody. In essence you will be shunned. And if in the future you ever do decide to properly breed it's likely you will have a mountain to overcome.

I personally wouldn't even breed a dilute let alone a WZ designated dog. But that's because I truly love the Doberman breed and want to see their health improve not decline. My last Doberman from a dilute died quite young. If you actually truly love the animals you breed you would not do this. if you're in it for a buck then you're looking for excuses to do it. You won't get them here.

 

[Doberman Gang]

A breeder from one of my obedience classes posted this on Facebook. Anyone thinking about breeding should read it.

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[GennyB]

If prople enjoy albinos so much why don't they try for a human albino child? How cool would that be? Nothing wrong with that right? Not really a genetic defect it just looks awesome right? rare and cool genetically defected albino child would be the coolest thing in the world... why not get one of those way cooler than an albino dog. My red Doberman was the product of a simple dilute not even an albino spend its whole life with skin conditions actually had a disease called Pemphigus an autoimmune issue, and spent the majority of his life on steroids. Eventually the steroids made him diabetic and spent the end of his life taking insulin shots daily to. This gave him cataracts and he was beginning to go blind. This dog was the product of a single dilute parent I would hate to think how bad he would've been had he been z factored. You already have the rolls of the AKC and the DPCA mixed up. Isn't it then possible that the experts in the Doberman pinscher club of America with decades and generations in some cases of experience are correct in telling you this is not a good idea. Possibly it was expressly prohibited by its parent club for a reason? But of course just about every Johnny-come-lately thinks they know better then the experts. If you breed an albino Doberman you Will be considered scourge outed and condemned at every opportunity by Doberman lovers everywhere. As a breeder you will be considered a scumbag and loser by your peers. And worse yet no reputable breeder will let your stud touch their well bred bitches or vice versa. At best you will only be able to breed your dog to a second rate prospect. You will get little support from anybody. In essence you will be shunned. And if in the future you ever do decide to properly breed it's likely you will have a mountain to overcome.

I personally wouldn't even breed a dilute let alone a WZ designated dog. But that's because I truly love the Doberman breed and want to see their health improve not decline. My last Doberman from a dilute died quite young. If you actually truly love the animals you breed you would not do this. if you're in it for a buck then you're looking for excuses to do it. You won't get them here.

VERY well said! All I can add to this is that I own a dilute and come from a very strong rescue background. I now also own a dog I purchased and have to say that I am done with the risk and expense of rescuing. I haven't had much luck in the health department with the last few rescues and will do my diligent research on any breeder before I bring another pup home. A pedigree with the z factor would not pass the test.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I'll go with the black dog being better because the attacker won't know which direction to defend himself from if he can't see the dog in the dark. Even if the black dog is hard to see walking down the street by your side, a mugger is going to notice it. He's also going to be figuring out your gender, age, level of fitness, your potential wealth, your level of confidence, ability to fight back, likelihood that you are carrying a weapon... They don't just jump out of the bushes and attack the next person to come strolling along. They like a soft target.

That makes sense. I guess it depends on whether we're talking about a criminal who uses his or her brain.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I was thinking about what color police forces usually wear. It's usually dark, isn't it? Dark blue and black.

The exceptions I can think of are Las Vegas cops who wear yellow shirts (or maybe that's just Vegas bicycle cops).

In Cincinnati you see cops wearing white traditional hats and, I think, sometimes white shirts. Maybe these are just the higher ranking cops. It would, however, be consistent with CPD's policy of trying to be conspicuous. They drive around during all the dark hours with their cruiser red and blue lights on solid and dim. This of course really illuminates the fact that CPD does not give a rip how people drive – they are clearly not trying to catch drivers doing anything wrong.

 

[kevn]

I have a few questions on a controversial topic:

I understand that the "Z" in a Doberman's AKC registration number indicates an ancestor who was an albino. My doberman has a "Z" in her registration. I have her 3 generation pedigree that shows quite a few "Z"s, but no albinos, or whites, only the four AKC accepted colors: black, red, blue and fawn. She is totally black and tan, and has had zero health problems at 9 months, and has a wonderful disposition and is very smart.

I know that many reputable breeders insist that a Doberman with a "Z" should never be bred. This is also condemned by the DCPA. However, the AKC granted my girl full registration, so her litter with a full-bred registered Doberman, even with a Z, would allow the litter to also be fully registered as full bred, not "conditional" with no mention of warnings about breeding. If the AKC thought there was a problem with breeding a Doberman with a "Z", it seems like they would only offer "conditional" registration. Why is there a difference in opinion between the AKC and the DPCA?

I know the argument that albinos have health problems, and that there was a lot of inbreeding to propagate the white color, so descendents of these dogs should not be allowed to propagate. On the other hand, there was a lot of inbreeding to create the breed in the first place, and I am sure that if you go back far enough in any breed, you will likely find an albino.

Is the "Z" really an issue? There are dobermans with a "Z" in their registration who have excellent health, and dobermans who do not have a "Z", who have very poor health. Has anyone actually done a statistical study to determine if the "Z" in an AKC registration number really has scientifically significant consequences in breeding?

Kevin

See quote below from VetGen Veterinary Genetic Services. What is your opinion about breeding a doberman with "WZ" who tested negative for the albino gene? Shouldn't the "Z" be removed from dogs that test negative for OCA (Albino)?

Albinism (White) in Doberman Pinscher
Researchers at Michigan State University recently identified a mutation that is tied to Oculocutaneous Albinism in Doberman Pinschers. The mutation alters a gene that has been shown to cause a similar condition (OCA4) in humans. Every white Doberman that has been tested has two copies of this mutation, and every known carrier has one copy.

Since the first appearance of white dogs in the breed some 35 years ago, every dog descended from that original breeding has received a special AKC designation (Z list) if they are registered. As might be expected this far beyond the original event, the majority of these dogs do not carry the albinism mutation. In a random sampling of non-white Z list animals submitted to Vetgen for other testing, approximately 80% were free of this mutation.

 

[Drogon]

What is your opinion about breeding a doberman with "WZ" who tested negative for the albino gene? Shouldn't the "Z" be removed from dogs that test negative for OCA (Albino)?

No it shouldn't be removed. This represents a fundamental misunderstanding of genetics.

David Bodine, M.D., Ph.D.: I investigate the genetics of pluripotent hematopoietic stem cells (PHSCs) to improve the effectiveness of bone marrow transplantation and to find better ways to use these unique cells for gene replacement therapy. Albinism is caused by a mutation in a gene called tyrosinase. The tyrosinase protein is needed to make pigment. One normal tyrosinase gene makes enough protein to make pigment, so to be albino an organism must have two mutant tyrosinase genes.

 

[sgourle]

It is possible after so much time that the albinism gene is no longer present in an individual dog; however, due to irresponsible breeding practices to this point the animal should *still not be bred.* OP posted this same discussion on another forum and received the same response. The responses will not change anywhere within the Doberman community.


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[AresMyDobie]

See quote below from VetGen Veterinary Genetic Services. What is your opinion about breeding a doberman with "WZ" who tested negative for the albino gene? Shouldn't the "Z" be removed from dogs that test negative for OCA (Albino)?

Albinism (White) in Doberman Pinscher
Researchers at Michigan State University recently identified a mutation that is tied to Oculocutaneous Albinism in Doberman Pinschers. The mutation alters a gene that has been shown to cause a similar condition (OCA4) in humans. Every white Doberman that has been tested has two copies of this mutation, and every known carrier has one copy.

Since the first appearance of white dogs in the breed some 35 years ago, every dog descended from that original breeding has received a special AKC designation (Z list) if they are registered. As might be expected this far beyond the original event, the majority of these dogs do not carry the albinism mutation. In a random sampling of non-white Z list animals submitted to Vetgen for other testing, approximately 80% were free of this mutation.

No it wouldn't be removed your dog still came Z factor lines. If you breed your dog you are irresponsible and only doing it for profit and not for the health and safety of the breed. I'm sorry but if you wanted to breed a dog you should have done better research as well as learning all you can on the "breeder" you got your pup from. I noticed such a trend with people who get purebreds they all the sudden become a breeder. No that's not how it works. There's more to the z factor then albinism, it's about health. Get her fixed at the appropriate age and forget about breeding this one. You will now know better for next time. Love her and make a nice life her but do not breed her.
Wanted to add that it's not a "white" dog. There are plenty of white dogs in the world but they are not considered albino. The two are completely different. White dogs like a white husky are usually seen with black pads and noses. Albinos lack pigment, they are lacking the melanin needed which is why it's not considered white.

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

Let's see a photo of your dog???

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

Timing is everything! I just so happen to see this on fb, so here ya go......

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Timing is everything! I just so happen to see this on fb, so here ya go......
View attachment 58511

It's interesting that you tend to see melanistic coloration (not full on melanistic) in a lot of Euro Dobes and working Dobes. My previous Dobe had what I called a "black wash" over his muzzle markings and chest markings. I loved it. My current Dobe has a lot less of it. Some of his litter mates have more. They also have a lot of black intruding into their lower leg and feet markings (not just "thumbprints.")

Thoughts?

 

[kevn]

Hi,

I am sure that a lot of purists on this forum would insist that those melanistic Euro Dobes patterns may not be full bred dobermans. I hope that the objective of improving the doberman breed isn't to make them all look like clones.

 

[kevn]

(I promise, I'll behave myself)

The AKC is a registry, period. They make $ on registrations (plus pedigrees, plus transfer of ownership). The DPCA is the Doberman Pinscher Parent Club. AKC does not set the breed standard, the Parent Club does.

No ethical breeder would breed an Albino or Z factored Dobe! Z Factored means a black, red, blue or fawn with a registration # beginning with WZ and has an ALBINO in its pedigree somewhere.

AKC does not determine whether you have Full Registration or Limited Registration on a dog. The breeder you purchased from did.

That is my understanding.

 

[kevn]

That is my understanding.

I meant about the AKC.

 

[MischasMomma]

I know all about this. Thank you for your responses. However, nobody seems to be reading my post in its entirely and answering questions I brought up, specifically: is the "Z" really an issue? Just because somebody says something it true, doesn't mean it is, without hard data to back up their assertions.

But people are giving you experience. Does this not make it true? Yes, the Z really is an issue. My girl is a factor and I have had countless issues, behavioral and medical. Even if your girl is "in good health at 9 months" doesn't mean that won't change (hopefully not) but she also can just as easily pass that trait along to her puppies or grandpuppies and so on... The z means that it is in the dogs genes... Which can therefore pass undesired traits along to a later generation regardless if that first dog in question shows those traits or not.

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[kevn]

Maybe the AKC should also include other letters in the registration, with or without a "Albino Z" indicating an ancestor from the past 30 or 40 years who had:

DM-Degenerative Myelopathy SOD1-A
DCM
Narcolepsy
von Willebrand's Disease Type I
and lots of other things.