"WZ" in AKC a Doberman Registration Number

[kevn]

I have a few questions on a controversial topic:

I understand that the "Z" in a Doberman's AKC registration number indicates an ancestor who was an albino. My doberman has a "Z" in her registration. I have her 3 generation pedigree that shows quite a few "Z"s, but no albinos, or whites, only the four AKC accepted colors: black, red, blue and fawn. She is totally black and tan, and has had zero health problems at 9 months, and has a wonderful disposition and is very smart.

I know that many reputable breeders insist that a Doberman with a "Z" should never be bred. This is also condemned by the DCPA. However, the AKC granted my girl full registration, so her litter with a full-bred registered Doberman, even with a Z, would allow the litter to also be fully registered as full bred, not "conditional" with no mention of warnings about breeding. If the AKC thought there was a problem with breeding a Doberman with a "Z", it seems like they would only offer "conditional" registration. Why is there a difference in opinion between the AKC and the DPCA?

I know the argument that albinos have health problems, and that there was a lot of inbreeding to propagate the white color, so descendents of these dogs should not be allowed to propagate. On the other hand, there was a lot of inbreeding to create the breed in the first place, and I am sure that if you go back far enough in any breed, you will likely find an albino.

Is the "Z" really an issue? There are dobermans with a "Z" in their registration who have excellent health, and dobermans who do not have a "Z", who have very poor health. Has anyone actually done a statistical study to determine if the "Z" in an AKC registration number really has scientifically significant consequences in breeding?

Kevin

 

[Panama]

(I promise, I'll behave myself)

The AKC is a registry, period. They make $ on registrations (plus pedigrees, plus transfer of ownership). The DPCA is the Doberman Pinscher Parent Club. AKC does not set the breed standard, the Parent Club does.

No ethical breeder would breed an Albino or Z factored Dobe! Z Factored means a black, red, blue or fawn with a registration # beginning with WZ and has an ALBINO in its pedigree somewhere.

AKC does not determine whether you have Full Registration or Limited Registration on a dog. The breeder you purchased from did.

 

[Drogon]

My links got messed up so let me try again

This from is the DPCA

*** ALBINISM - "white coated" and "white factored" Dobermans should NOT be bred. These dogs are *TYROSINASE POSITIVE ALBINOS*. In 1996, the AKC established a tracking system (the letter "Z" will be part of the registration number) allowing breeders to identify the normal colored Dobermans which may carry the albinistic gene. A list with all dogs tracing back to Shebah's (the first Albino Doberman registered) parents is available here. All breeders should require an AKC certified pedigree with colors to check that "white coated" and "white factored" dogs are not present in the pedigree of the dog or bitch to be bred.

Thanks, great info.I just got Diablo's papers back.In the AKC paper work i recieved it says ( please dont breed your doberman if WZ is the first two letters before their #) but it doesnt explain why or what the other letters meen like in my papers theres....WS#...WP#...WR#...and #V plus #

DPCA | The Doberman | Albino Dobermans
The DPCA | Albino ZList

 

[kevn]

Thank you for this information. I know that many people and the DCPA orginazation are extremely adamant about this, but this doesn't make it true. I'm asking questions about the validity of assertions about this "Z" designation based on data. From reading up on this, I get the feeling that the AKA was pressured by the DCPA into putting that "Z" into the registration, with any ancestral link to an albino, however, stopped short of requiring "limited" registration because of it, because statistical data validating issues resulting from it didn't exist.

Kevin

 

[JanS]

From reading up on this, I get the feeling that the AKA was pressured by the DCPA into putting that "Z" into the registration, with any ancestral link to an albino, however, stopped short of requiring "limited" registration because of it, because statistical data validating issues resulting from it didn't exist.

Yes the DPCA did push for the tracing of the Z factor with AKC but I don't believe they've been successful in requiring limited registration yet.
Sort of OT, but not really, I have a solid colored registered Paint horse and they have to have a limited registration because of the coloring that isn't typical for the breed.

 

[Drogon]

From reading up on this, I get the feeling that the AKA was pressured by the DCPA into putting that "Z" into the registration, with any ancestral link to an albino, however, stopped short of requiring "limited" registration because of it, because statistical data validating issues resulting from it didn't exist.

I'm not sure what you've read or where you've read it. I believe the gene has been identified http://www.dpca.org/documents/albino/plosone-article.pdf Plenty of statistics in there
I believe a conditional AKC registration is just one where the pedigree isn't yet established. Yours has been established and it has been established as one that shouldn't be breed. Yes it is a "full-blooded" Doberman (has 3+ generations in valid pedigree) so the AKC will register it.

 

[kevn]

I'm not sure what you've read or where you've read it. I believe the gene has been identified http://www.dpca.org/documents/albino/plosone-article.pdf Plenty of statistics in there
I believe a conditional AKC registration is just one where the pedigree isn't yet established. Yours has been established and it has been established as one that shouldn't be breed. Yes it is a "full-blooded" Doberman (has 3+ generations in valid pedigree) so the AKC will register it.

 

[kevn]

That is not true. Her AKC registration has no limitations on whether she should be bred. Her breeders decide whether her registration is full or conditional. It has not been "established" one way or the other by the AKC. There is a conflict of opinion between the AKC and DPCA about this. At one point, long ago, I think they sent out notices with registration saying "this dog should not be bred", but then stopped doing that. There is simply no data to back up the idea that an albino in remote ancestry results in worse health problems, that I know of. Let me know of any, please.

Yes, I know that the albino gene has been identified. If I do decide to have her bred, I will first have her tested for it, along with all the other hereditary health issues Dobermans have. I believe it unlikely that this mutated albino gene will even be present.

 

[Drogon]

The limited AKC registrations come from the request of the breeder not AKC. AKC doesn't care but sometimes the breeder does. The breeder might have various different reasons from health to money over breeding rights (etc).

 

[Drogon]

That is not true. Her AKC registration has no limitations on whether she should be bred. Her breeders decide whether her registration is full or conditional.

Yes it is true. Limited registration and conditional registration are two different things.
Conditional Registration
Limited Registration

Your breeder bred a Z factored doberman so obviously they don't see a problem in breeding them so they did not limit your registration.

You may even have more difficulty getting insurance or it may be at a higher rate
Be aware that white or cream Dobermans are a genetic mutation that is associated with severe health problems; they are not the prized and expensive rarity some people will try to market them as. There is no test for the albino gene, but good breeders do everything they can to avoid producing albino Dobermans. Avoid these dogs and the breeders who produce and sell them.
Doberman Pinscher | Embrace Breed Library

 

[kevn]

I know all about this. Thank you for your responses. However, nobody seems to be reading my post in its entirely and answering questions I brought up, specifically: is the "Z" really an issue? Just because somebody says something it true, doesn't mean it is, without hard data to back up their assertions.

 

[AresMyDobie]

I know all about this. Thank you for your responses. However, nobody seems to be reading my post in its entirely and answering questions I brought up, specifically: is the "Z" really an issue? Just because somebody says something it true, doesn't mean it is, without hard data to back up their assertions.

Yes it really is an issue why do you think the lovers of this amazing breed put the z there to track it. The z mean in laymans terms do not breed and do not buy. There is plenty of back behind why you should not breed a Z factor Doberman. Any ethical and reputable breeder wouldn't have these dogs unless they rescued it. Sorry but everyone here knows what they are talking about and are giving you information. Do not breed your dog it's not ok and you would be breeding in health problems and the Doberman has enough of those. Reputable not backyard breeders are trying to breed the z's out. So yes plain and simple YES it is an issue. Get her fixed at the appropriate time and now you know better for next time.

 

[Drogon]

I know all about this. Thank you for your responses. However, nobody seems to be reading my post in its entirely and answering questions I brought up, specifically: is the "Z" really an issue? Just because somebody says something it true, doesn't mean it is, without hard data to back up their assertions.

Ethical breeders adhere to the DPCA code of ethics.


General health -- The albinistic syndrome may be accompanied by a wide range of health problems. Some types of albinism affect the immune system, liver, or clotting ability, and others may cause other physiological abnormalities such as defects of the kidneys or thymus, anemia, inner ear defects, megacolon, neurological abnormalities, skeletal defects, microphthalmia, osteopetrosis, spina bifida, and sterility, just to name a few. Albinism in general predisposes animals to skin cancer as well as photosensitivity/photophobia. In some species, some types of albinism are even lethal! So it is easy to see that albinism is NOT just a matter of pigment, it's a deleterious mutation which affects the whole body.

Unfortunately, these health problems have not yet been studied in a controlled manner in the albino Doberman. However, as with the behavioral effects of albinism, there is no reason to suspect that the health effects of albinism will be any different in Dobermans than in other species. For instance, I know of at least one albinistic Doberman who suffered from severe progressive neurological problems, and was eventually euthanized for them. I know of another albino who suffered from megaesophagus, another neurological abnormality. Also, many owners of albino Dobermans have reported that their dogs squint in bright light, have poor vision, and are unable to remain in the sun for any significant length of time without burning. Several albino Dobermans have been reported with skin cancers. And, as discussed elsewhere, one of the best-known albino stud dogs died with malignant melanoma, at less than six years of age.

For more specific information on skin cancers in albinism, look here.
For more specific information on other deleterious health effects associated with many types of albinism, look here.
For more specific information on a few lethal albino mutations, look here,
For more specific information on auditory abnormalities associated with albinism, look here.

Vision -- Albinism always affects vision. As mentioned in the "what is albinism" section, the official term for most types of albinism is "oculocutaneous albinism". It is called that because the albinism effects both skin AND eyes. As the NOAH site states, "People with albinism always have problems with vision, and many have low vision. Many are 'legally blind'...Vision problems in albinism result from abnormal development of the retina" (the "fovea", which is normally the part of the retina responsible for the clearest vision, is underdeveloped because of the lack of pigment), "and abnormal patterns of nerve connections between the eye and the brain" (the optic nerves are misrouted at the point where they would normally cross over). "It is the presence of these eye problems that defines the diagnosis of albinism. Therefore the main test for albinism is simply an eye exam." see the quote here. Note that this does not mean simply shining a light in the eyes, but may involve electrophysiological recordings and other specialized testing which, in dogs, will probably require anesthesia to complete. These tests have not yet been performed in albino Dobermans, to the best of my knowledge.

Also note that the CERF eye examination, commonly used to detect congenital ocular defects in dogs, will not detect several of the visual problems associated with albinism. Vision problems experienced by albinos (human or non-human) may include nystagmus (rapid back-and-forth movement of the eyes), strabismus (crossed eyes, wandering eye, "lazy" eye, "wall" eye), photosensitivity/photophobia, either hyperopia (far-sightedness) or myopia (near-sightedness), and/or astigmatism (blurred vision), as well as a loss of depth perception caused by the abnormalities in the optic nerves. These problems can been seen in both "complete" and "partial" albinos (for instance, Siamese cats often have crossed eyes and/or other vision abnormalities, and "white" tigers also often have crossed eyes). Obviously, visual deficits would be a serious handicap for a working breed of dog. Also, the poor vision suffered by albinos may be a partial explanation for the aggressive and/or fearful behaviors often reported in albino Dobermans. There have been multiple reports of photosensitivity/photophobia from owners of albinistic Dobermans, as well as reports of extreme nearsightedness (such as an inability to recognize family members from across a room and inability to chase balls) and severe lack of depth perception (such as difficulty climbing stairs or problems with falling off of a porch). Photophobia in these dogs was also confirmed by ophthalmologic exam, as reported in the Summer 1987 issue of Doberman Quarterly. Unfortunately, as has been confirmed by CERF officials, CERF certification exams will not detect far-sightedness, near-sightedness, astigmatism, photophobia, or depth-perception deficits, or the optic-nerve abnormalities caused by albinism.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I don't purport to have studied this issue much at all. I would like to say, though, that I appreciate what seems to be a search for information and a questioning mind. Sounds like me.

To me it seems that while your Dobe being Z factored may not necessarily mean they will have health problems, or will immediately produce offspring with health problems, albinism has been proven to carry with it health problems. So your Dobe having the Z factor means that she (correct me if I'm wrong) has the capability of throwing an albino pup, or that one of her progeny could be, or throw an albino pup. Since albino Dobes have health problems, that is a problem.

I will add that even if an albino Doberman does not suffer from health problems, its color is inconsistent with the purpose for which the breed was developed. The founder(s) of the breed wanted a black dog to serve as body guard at night. Anyone who breeds intentionally for a Dobe other than a black (and tan – the tan was not intended, but occurred) is straying from the breed's purpose.

Now, in the spirit of being open-minded, I will question my own position here by saying: Is it better, if you are seeking a nighttime bodyguard, to have a black dog that is hard to see, or is it better to have a white dog that is easy to see?

 

[AresMyDobie]

I don't purport to have studied this issue much at all. I would like to say, though, that I appreciate what seems to be a search for information and a questioning mind. Sounds like me.

To me it seems that while your Dobe being Z factored may not necessarily mean they will have health problems, or will immediately produce offspring with health problems, albinism has been proven to carry with it health problems. So your Dobe having the Z factor means that she (correct me if I'm wrong) has the capability of throwing an albino pup, or that one of her progeny could be, or throw an albino pup. Since albino Dobes have health problems, that is a problem.

I will add that even if an albino Doberman does not suffer from health problems, its color is inconsistent with the purpose for which the breed was developed. The founder(s) of the breed wanted a black dog to serve as body guard at night. Anyone who breeds intentionally for a Dobe other than a black (and tan – the tan was not intended, but occurred) is straying from the breed's purpose.

Now, in the spirit of being open-minded, I will question my own position here by saying: Is it better, if you are seeking a nighttime bodyguard, to have a black dog that is hard to see, or is it better to have a white dog that is easy to see?

Well tad with the last question you presented I'll give a few examples on why. One if you look at the colors of a black and rust dobe they are fit with what are called warning colors, black and red are meant to be threatening and a warning to back off or suffer the consequence. Now that's just part, ambush and stealth are also essential for an animal to bring something down. Animals match there purpose for instance, a lioness is a tawny color that matches the grass they stalk in, the spots on a cheetah or leopard camouflages the animal, the strips on a tiger breaks up it's body imagine so it not even there. To go a different route a zebra has strips to run in a herd and confuse it's predator. So yes their markings and dark color were for a reason

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Well tad with the last question you presented I'll give a few examples on why. One if you look at the colors of a black and rust dobe they are fit with what are called warning colors, black and red are meant to be threatening and a warning to back off or suffer the consequence. Now that's just part, ambush and stealth are also essential for an animal to bring something down. Animals match there purpose for instance, a lioness is a tawny color that matches the grass they stalk in, the spots on a cheetah or leopard camouflages the animal, the strips on a tiger breaks up it's body imagine so it not even there. To go a different route a zebra has strips to run in a herd and confuse it's predator. So yes their markings and dark color were for a reason

Interesting. I know, from growing up in the desert, that in reptiles orange and red mean dangerous, and of course you've got the Black Widow with its all-black color except for that super creepy red hourglass marking on its belly.

As for the black color: I posed the question here on DCF a while back whether black dogs were more intimidating. I posted a pic of a white MMA fighter and a black MMA fighter and asked which one was more intimidating. That post got removed. Then I posted a pic of a white car and a black car. BUT...

... herein lies the rub: The question I was asking regarding which is better for a nighttime bodyguard is asking this question: If you want people to know you have a dog with you so that they might leave you alone, is it better to have a white dog so that it will be much easier seen that you have a dog? A black dog obviously is better in terms of stealth and hiding and being able to sneak up on people. But if your dog is to serve as a warning, isn't it better to have a white dog?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Also, I have read in a book that the markings on the Dobermann occurred naturally and were not intended by the developers of the breed. I guess that book could be wrong.

 

[AresMyDobie]

Interesting. I know, from growing up in the desert, that in reptiles orange and red mean dangerous, and of course you've got the Black Widow with its all-black color except for that super creepy red hourglass marking on its belly.

As for the black color: I posed the question here on DCF a while back whether black dogs were more intimidating. I posted a pic of a white MMA fighter and a black MMA fighter and asked which one was more intimidating. That post got removed. Then I posted a pic of a white car and a black car. BUT...

... herein lies the rub: The question I was asking regarding which is better for a nighttime bodyguard is asking this question: If you want people to know you have a dog with you so that they might leave you alone, is it better to have a white dog so that it will be much easier seen that you have a dog? A black dog obviously is better in terms of stealth and hiding and being able to sneak up on people. But if your dog is to serve as a warning, isn't it better to have a white dog?

Lol I dunno do you want something obvious so you can prepare for it or ... Hello blazing white teeth that I didn't see !!!! Lol for me seeing takes the lethal approach away. A dog displayed in warning color is better, then HI ! I'm over here do you see me coming ?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Lol I dunno do you want something obvious so you can prepare for it or ... Hello blazing white teeth that I didn't see !!!! Lol for me seeing takes the lethal approach away. A dog displayed in warning color is better, then HI ! I'm over here do you see me coming ?

Ah! But here again you seem to be talking about your being on the offense – sneaking up and attacking someone. A bodyguard is in defense and its presence is meant to ward off threats before they materialize I'd rather have a would-be attacker not choose to try me than to have the attacker find me vulnerable and then get surprised by my weapon when they are right on top of me.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

That said, I like the look of black dogs, and believe that in the light, they are a more intimidating-colored animal than a white dog.

Also, there are other instances in which I value mine and my dog's stealth.