Wisdom Panel or Embark for Health?

[Renzo Red]

Hi All, I want to order a DNA Health test but not sure which one will include the best results for Doberman's. VWD, DCM, Copper toxicity. etc I have an 11 month old rescue from an oops litter so I know nothing about his history. Does anyone have a preference Wisdom panel or Embark and are they worth purchasing for health info? thank you in advance.

 

[JanS]

I like Embark since it's more universal.

 

[BGpa]

Hi All, I want to order a DNA Health test but not sure which one will include the best results for Doberman's. VWD, DCM, Copper toxicity. etc I have an 11 month old rescue from an oops litter so I know nothing about his history. Does anyone have a preference Wisdom panel or Embark and are they worth purchasing for health info? thank you in advance.

There are small advantages to each. I used Embark on a sale because its data was automatically forwarded to Cornell for DCM research.

You can also send the raw data file to U Uttrecht who are the ones who found the 3rd and 4th marker for DCM, and doing a large scale study on copper toxicosis, that Dobes are above average in as well.

UC Davis has the VGL and a couple more that are useful for breeders.

In my case the "relative finder" feature of Embark came in handy, as BYB Bonnie came with no pedigree, and after we got a note on a male sibling, we were able to look back in her pedigree for more, that helped inform my pet insurance and vet test decisions.

 

[Renzo Red]

There are small advantages to each. I used Embark on a sale because its data was automatically forwarded to Cornell for DCM research.

You can also send the raw data file to U Uttrecht who are the ones who found the 3rd and 4th marker for DCM, and doing a large scale study on copper toxicosis, that Dobes are above average in as well.

UC Davis has the VGL and a couple more that are useful for breeders.

In my case the "relative finder" feature of Embark came in handy, as BYB Bonnie came with no pedigree, and after we got a note on a male sibling, we were able to look back in her pedigree for more, that helped inform my pet insurance and vet test decisions.

that is awesome info thank you!

 

[BGpa]

that is awesome info thank you!

Your welcome, I can get pretty dog nerdy but find the topic interesting on a couple levels, esp how genetic pedigree compares to traditional mathematical pedigree.

You can buy both on Amazon, btw, where if you go to the listing, and scroll down you can get more customer reviews, there.

If you do a google search you'll probably find a forum on reddit on dna tests with lots more opinions.

I have not used Wisdom, so I'd be interested in how it works for you if you go that way.

Embark has a Breeder level product that includes a couple tools, that I'd defer to Breeders to opine on. The Genetic COI is what got me interested after the discussion on the Wade, Liu study on DCM went viral a couple years ago thanks to the Doberman youtuber interviewing Dr Liu.

 

[JanS]

Embark has a Breeder level product that includes a couple tools

That's what I got for both of these dogs because it was on special for less than the other similar tests. I also like Embark because you can submit the results to OFA as well if your trying to keep your dogs records on file in one place.

 

[BGpa]

That's what I got for both of these dogs because it was on special for less than the other similar tests. I also like Embark because you can submit the results to OFA as well if your trying to keep your dogs records on file in one place.

OFA- thats a big plus.
For anyone shopping as a careful puppy buyer, thats another checklist item to screen for top breeders-

If you were to ask for a copy of the OFA on genetic DNA results as third party proof, just like OFA on the holter/echo by cardiologist...

and if the breeder hedges,
you can basically...move on...

Amiright? Breeders here, did I get that right?

I'm recalling Dr Bell promoting the use of OFA platform to breeders as a best practices tool to keep info in one place, plus new features, etc
in his breeder education seminar at DPCA annual conference 2024.

 

[BGpa]

Your welcome, I can get pretty dog nerdy but find the topic interesting on a couple levels, esp how genetic pedigree compares to traditional mathematical pedigree.

You can buy both on Amazon, btw, where if you go to the listing, and scroll down you can get more customer reviews, there.

If you do a google search you'll probably find a forum on reddit on dna tests with lots more opinions.

I have not used Wisdom, so I'd be interested in how it works for you if you go that way.

Embark has a Breeder level product that includes a couple tools, that I'd defer to Breeders to opine on. The Genetic COI is what got me interested after the discussion on the Wade, Liu study on DCM went viral a couple years ago thanks to the Doberman youtuber interviewing Dr Liu.

PS: just found this,

Review: Wisdom Panel’s Dog DNA Test Offers Surprisingly Practical Benefits

Dog DNA tests like Wisdom Panel's are flying off the shelves—but are they worth it? For rescue pups and mutts, the answer might surprise you.

www.rover.com

Which may be helpful.

You didnt ask, but since its a thing in dobes-
One thing I learned from the Embark Health part, that I did not previously know to look for, was Copper Toxicosis, as Bonnie popped positive for one of three gene markers; APT7B

the "most penetrant" (which iirc means most statistically significant as to prediction of the actual disease showing up).

Note: Just like in DCM, having a positive gene marker does not mean the disease will show up ( nor does the absence guarantee it wont...)

But it got me thinking, and a little more research shows that Dobes are more likely than most to suffer from copper storage version, and so I followed the idea from a DPCA seminar on "creating a health plan for DCM" in the same way to be proactive on copper storage disease by
1. Researching and avoiding food or treats highest in copper.

And

2. annual tests of liver by blood test.

So far so good but if your pup pops positive for copper storage on Embark, there is a lot of good info on the science and "what to do here" in archives here and elsewhere as needed.

Last I checked, Wisdom did NOT scan for the copper marker genes in the basic retail level, but they may have it or be adding it in the top level test, and you could ask your vet to explain more, is the sales pitch at Wisdom.

Wisdom also claims to be used by more vets, which makes sense as they are owned by MARS, which owns VCA and Banfield Vet chains.

Thats not bad imho- as time goes on the database of all dogs gets expanded and research science folks likes MOAR data.

Wisdom and Embark also use different algo's which is way above my head to explain...

So, thats all I got.

Oh, sorry one more thing:
If your pup actually comes down with copper disease the U of Utrecht has offered in past to pay for the expensive liver biopsy test if you share your dna and results of biopsy back to them for research...as of a year ago so check to be sure with U Utrecht if you are reading this later.

 

[Renzo Red]

PS: just found this,

Review: Wisdom Panel’s Dog DNA Test Offers Surprisingly Practical Benefits

Dog DNA tests like Wisdom Panel's are flying off the shelves—but are they worth it? For rescue pups and mutts, the answer might surprise you.

www.rover.com

Which may be helpful.

You didnt ask, but since its a thing in dobes-
One thing I learned from the Embark Health part, that I did not previously know to look for, was Copper Toxicosis, as Bonnie popped positive for one of three gene markers; APT7B

the "most penetrant" (which iirc means most statistically significant as to prediction of the actual disease showing up).

Note: Just like in DCM, having a positive gene marker does not mean the disease will show up ( nor does the absence guarantee it wont...)

But it got me thinking, and a little more research shows that Dobes are more likely than most to suffer from copper storage version, and so I followed the idea from a DPCA seminar on "creating a health plan for DCM" in the same way to be proactive on copper storage disease by
1. Researching and avoiding food or treats highest in copper.

And

2. annual tests of liver by blood test.

So far so good but if your pup pops positive for copper storage on Embark, there is a lot of good info on the science and "what to do here" in archives here and elsewhere as needed.

Last I checked, Wisdom did NOT scan for the copper marker genes in the basic retail level, but they may have it or be adding it in the top level test, and you could ask your vet to explain more, is the sales pitch at Wisdom.

Wisdom also claims to be used by more vets, which makes sense as they are owned by MARS, which owns VCA and Banfield Vet chains.

Thats not bad imho- as time goes on the database of all dogs gets expanded and research science folks likes MOAR data.

Wisdom and Embark also use different algo's which is way above my head to explain...

So, thats all I got.

Oh, sorry one more thing:
If your pup actually comes down with copper disease the U of Utrecht has offered in past to pay for the expensive liver biopsy test if you share your dna and results of biopsy back to them for research...as of a year ago so check to be sure with U Utrecht if you are reading this later.

Thank you I have ordered the EMBARK test and yes I am curious about the copper because he has such a sensitive stomach always soft stool

 

[JanS]

I have ordered the EMBARK test and yes I am curious about the copper because he has such a sensitive stomach always soft stool

Let us know how it goes!

 

[BGpa]

Thank you I have ordered the EMBARK test and yes I am curious about the copper because he has such a sensitive stomach always soft stool

Ya, loose stool can be many things including just overfeeding pups, anxiety, etc.

I'd wait a bit until the 3 month mark when rescues are usuallly settling in.

But ask about that "loose stool" as a separate post separate from CSD
or read the many posts here or elsewhere on loose stool.

Gold mine of experience here if you dig...

My recollection from a bunch of research is CSD doesnt show up for awhile but ask your vet to add liver test to annual physical at 2-3 yrs. Some detailed threads here and elsewhere.

PS: get your pet insurance NOW with a ckean bill of health before "pre-existing conditions" are documented confirmed.

 

[Ravenbird]

Not sure if this is still true, but last I checked, Wisdom had the DCM 3 & 4 markers, whereas Embark did not.

Of course it's still true that all 4 markers are not predictors of DCM, but should hold information for the future, especially for breeders not wanting to double up on markers with a potential mate.

 

[BGpa]

I think I read the same awhile back.

 

[BGpa]

Just because I am a dog nerd, @Ravenbird
I went ahead and logged into Embark and confirmed with customer support- "DCM3 and 4 not yet" and checked my settings for product updates.

I was able to switch over to Breeder profile at no charge and found the announcement @JanS
Mentioned on OFA

Lots of interesting educational content to geek out on...

Punnett Squares and Predicting Litter Outcomes

In this video tutorial, breeders can learn how to use Punnett squares to help predict genetic health risks and coat colors in potential litters. View now!

embarkvet.com

 

[Renzo Red]

Ya, loose stool can be many things including just overfeeding pups, anxiety, etc.

I'd wait a bit until the 3 month mark when rescues are usuallly settling in.

But ask about that "loose stool" as a separate post separate from CSD
or read the many posts here or elsewhere on loose stool.

Gold mine of experience here if you dig...

My recollection from a bunch of research is CSD doesnt show up for awhile but ask your vet to add liver test to annual physical at 2-3 yrs. Some detailed threads here and elsewhere.

PS: get your pet insurance NOW with a ckean bill of health before "pre-existing conditions" are documented confirmed.

do have a preference for pet insurance?

 

[BGpa]

do have a preference for pet insurance?

Pet insurance is constantly changing.
I read somewhere there are only two main underwriters so when you see a dozen different names, some partnered with this or that...
Aimed at different customers...
What they cover is based on similar underlying risk just pay more for extra benefits...different buyers. No one size fits all.

Its like buying car batteries, which are made in like two places but sold in dozens of differen sizes, types, retailers, wholesalers, brands...

You can find some pet insurance reviews on line, and Wag is a portal to shop five or six, compare features.

I used Embrace (because most dobe folk liked it) for two years until the premiums suddenly doubled- no change in Bonnies health, and the only explanation was "vet costs in CA are going up"...true enough.

So I shopped and chose Spot based on my needs, a Forbes review, and so far claims process has been good. Back down to closer price before.

Remember- once a big issue comes uo that may not be covered as a pre-existing condition. So dont delay too long, and swapping insurers wont cure that either.
Even raising coverage limits later may not be allowed without re-underwriting so do your homework.
Once you do have it:
Just keep copies of all vet invoices and tell vet office to be prepared to provide history inc "dr notes" to match your invoice, when you submit first claim as the insurance co will contact vet to get all that direct.

If the insurer allows after you can get them yourself on each and upload yourself thru app, email etc. speed claim reimbursement.

I have had Bonnies set up as catastrophic insurance which does not include vax, annual tests, only covers in case of sickness or accident, with a deductible and a max cap.
I budget for the predictable stuff inc the deductible plus non reimburseables ie annual checkups, symparica trio, supplements, etc which tends to higher for a pup then levels off depending on how careful you want to be..."dobes are not cheap or easy keeprs" said @dobebug more than once....life happens!

I keep a savings account for the deductible and average yearly exams etc and self insure risk above pet insurance by credit card, (and prayers...)

Everyone is different so you have to decide what you can afford or not.

Trupanion covers everything but its like $300/mo so not how I roll. Others swear by them...

So far I've been lucky and a couple years minor issues reimbursements covered premium costs but really ...

what I am aiming for on pet insurance is some peace of mind, and not being crushed without some cushion, on a bad event.

 

[JanS]

So far I've been lucky and a couple years minor issues reimbursements covered premium costs but really ...

That's exactly why we don't carry it. We just set aside that monthly premium for pet expenses and come out ahead without padding someone's pocket. I've also seen too many cases where people reach their limit on emergencies and have to pull the majority out of their pocket.

 

[Two Dobes]

Yes, when it comes to an ER visit in the middle of a holiday evening; that is when we use our "Dog Expenses" credit card

 

[BGpa]

Yes, when it comes to an ER visit in the middle of a holiday evening; that is when we use our "Dog Expenses" credit card

Its always on a weekend when regular vet is closed, amiright?