Embark results!
- Thread starter kaloric
- Start date
Oliver's Dad
New Member
Sorry for the double post... Im a newb.
LIL Oliver is 10 weeks old. I just got my embark results, seems Ollie has both DCM markers, but I'm not sure that means anything. He is clean for everything else and has a COI of 16.
Should I consider keeping him intact to help the breed?
LIL Oliver is 10 weeks old. I just got my embark results, seems Ollie has both DCM markers, but I'm not sure that means anything. He is clean for everything else and has a COI of 16.
Should I consider keeping him intact to help the breed?
Rits
Hot Topics Subscriber
Do you have a picture of Oliver? His parents? What's his pedigree?
You should keep him intact until maturity anyways so he gets the hormones necessary for growth, which is usually complete by 2.
Oliver's Dad
New Member
I will upload a few pics here in a moment. AS for the pedigree, I was told that the mother was AKC registered and I can get her information. The father was was an impressive red, but not registered. I was told he was from a "great line" not sure what that meant. His paternal line has the A1B I'm not sure if that is rare in dobes, but embark made it sound impressive. As for the clipping I was planning on waiting until he was full before I really think about it. Im interested if I should consider finding someone to help ethically breed the low COI.
Welcome from Minnesota! You should definitely start a new thread in the intro section so we can properly welcome you.
A low COI is good but it takes a lot more than that for a dog to be a good sire.
Oliver's Dad
New Member
Attachments
Rits
Hot Topics Subscriber
Yes, exactly what Jan said. He needs to have good breed type and pass all genetic health testing. I appreciate you wanting to go about this ethically. You have plenty of time to research and find a good mentor or two to evaluate him.
He definitely looks like a doberman. See if you can trace his mother on dobequest.org using her registered name.
StateOfMine
Hot Topics Subscriber
NICE COI!!!!
I'm not a breeder but from a complete amateur's perspective, if he was bred to a dobe clear for both DCM markers the fact he has markers for both is no biggie. Waiting until he is at least 3 would be a good idea if you were going to go that route. In the meantime, may as well title him.
I personally wouldn't bother with conformation, but maybe prove that he can physically perform and function since that seems to be scarce in dobermans now. You can always breed back into conformation later, rather than conformation be the main focus.
I know I just annoyed someone, but from an outside the box perspective, that seems like a more practical approach to me.
I'm not a breeder but from a complete amateur's perspective, if he was bred to a dobe clear for both DCM markers the fact he has markers for both is no biggie. Waiting until he is at least 3 would be a good idea if you were going to go that route. In the meantime, may as well title him.
I personally wouldn't bother with conformation, but maybe prove that he can physically perform and function since that seems to be scarce in dobermans now. You can always breed back into conformation later, rather than conformation be the main focus.
I know I just annoyed someone, but from an outside the box perspective, that seems like a more practical approach to me.
Oliver's Dad
New Member
I would try hard to find the sires owner and see if it's possible to get him registered. I don't know if you can register this pup without the sire being registered. Did Embark say he was 100% Doberman? If so, maybe there's another way with AKC, but I don't know. You can't show conformation without registration, but you can do ANY sports! Look through the threads on here about Nose Work, Obedience, Fast Cat, Rally, even bitey sports, the list of fun possibilities is endless! Even if you just got him for a companion dog, doing sports with him tightens your bond.
I am really excited to see a Doberman with a 16 COI and that looks as good as this puppy. I'd love to see his dams pedigree for curiosity! Do share what info you have with your own thread about him! And welcome to Doberman Chat from New Mexico!
I am really excited to see a Doberman with a 16 COI and that looks as good as this puppy. I'd love to see his dams pedigree for curiosity! Do share what info you have with your own thread about him! And welcome to Doberman Chat from New Mexico!
Oliver's Dad
New Member
Thank you for the welcome, I will create an intro this afternoon. He is pure Doberman, we are going to reach out to the breeder today and get more info on the dame. According to Embark he is clear of every marker but DCM 1 and 2. I want to get as much feedback from the community if he could be of help to the line. Thank you again for the kind words.
Rits
Hot Topics Subscriber
I would submit him to betterbred! You can do so for free here: BetterBred.com
strykerdobe
Hot Topics Subscriber
I've never seen a Dobe with a COI of 16 before.
kaloric
Well-Known Member
Yes, conditionally-- do the additional (non-genetic) testing done, especially temperament. Try to get his registration sorted-out, but be aware, it might not be possible if one or both parents has a limited registration.
That said, registration isn't everything. I believe there's kind of a conditional registration so undocumented dogs which are obvious purebreds can participate in some breed activities. I do not know if there's a path to gain a normal registration, though.
I'm just saying that papers or ribbons do nothing for a pretty dog that dies young. Given the choice of an unregistered Dobe with strong genetic diversity and correct temperament & appearance, and a registered but inbred Dobe, I'd take the chance on the unregistered one.
The way I see it, a dog like Oliver is potentially like an outcross, just without the risks of losing important and endearing traits to outcrossing.
Claims about bloodlines are mostly nonsense and meaningless. The current DCM markers are nothing of the sort, they are just coincidences with statistical significance in some Dobe cohorts with no established causative link. It's best simply to be aware of the potential for a slightly elevated risk he may develop DCM and be vigilant in screening for it every year or two as he gets older.
Yes, if you have a purebred dog that isn't registered by the breeder you can submit it to AKC for PAL registration. They can do anything in any competition except conformation. The drawback is they have to be spayed or neutered - which would defeat the whole purpose of proving him worthy of passing his genes. I've thought all day about this puppy with a 16 COI and how badly this breed needs this. He may just be a wonderful companion, but that's good enough for most of us.
My initial reaction was excitement to see a COI of 16 in a purebred. Then the disappointment of him not being registered. If he can't be registered, even if he was bred, again his offspring can't be registered, so it's not helping the breed with new (old?) lines and options to cross to for show or sport Dobermans. I'm really glad you found DCF and put this info out for us to see!
BG1
Hot Topics Subscriber
Just stumbled on this again today and reminded how good this forum is for getting good information.
I did an Embark on BYB Bonnie, primarily to see if I could find some useful health info and second, to possibly get "relative finder" info (which Wisdom and UCDavis' VGL do not, yet)
In both cases it worked out:
DCM 1, all others not.
Copper Storage, 1of 3, the most penetrant gene.
I read up on both DCM and CAH and created my own "health plan" with changes in diet, monitoring, thanks to the excellent educational info in Embark plus all the good stuff you can find at DPCA- see 2024 Dr Meg Sleeper youtube on DCM "create health plan" and the most recent presentation on DCM fro DPCA...
I posted my research and findings on Copper Storage disease including calling U Utrecht researchers on their work on CAH, submitted the raw data from Embark to them, contacted the dog food maker for copper info, adjusted that and eliminated beef liver snacks, to be proactive on liver disease...will do bllod work on 3yr Annual checkup vet visit, etc.
So, Embark (and Wisdom, and VGL are all useful in slightly varying ways- especially to responsibe breeders of owners doing due diligence)
---
Relatives: found a male sibling of same litter, which gave both sides of haplotypes, confirming male euro, female north american, which was the back story on Bonnie, and it showed a COI 21%, so that was nice.
I have also gone back and checked occasionally (Bonnie is coming up on three and wearing a holter as we speak in prep of first preventative echo with cardio doc next)
Because one of the features of Embark is that as more folks use it, it gathers more data, including more distant relatives of your dog...useful for a family pet without AKC registration, with no other way to examine past pedigree.
And discovered more relatives, including one from Altobello at 48% relatedness (second cousin? ...I have lots of reading to do to understand pedigree and embark dna meaaures of relatedness)
which also confirms the need to be thinking ahead on DCM which IIRC that Altobello is known for champions in europe but higher DCM from those lines...
Anyway...great thread, and @kaloric I see you at reddit, too so thanks for the great convo's.
Also
@Ravenbird and @Rits for wise advice (and too many more to mention) and @JanS for making this place so indispensable for excellent explanations and breed info.
Merry Christmas!
I did an Embark on BYB Bonnie, primarily to see if I could find some useful health info and second, to possibly get "relative finder" info (which Wisdom and UCDavis' VGL do not, yet)
In both cases it worked out:
DCM 1, all others not.
Copper Storage, 1of 3, the most penetrant gene.
I read up on both DCM and CAH and created my own "health plan" with changes in diet, monitoring, thanks to the excellent educational info in Embark plus all the good stuff you can find at DPCA- see 2024 Dr Meg Sleeper youtube on DCM "create health plan" and the most recent presentation on DCM fro DPCA...
I posted my research and findings on Copper Storage disease including calling U Utrecht researchers on their work on CAH, submitted the raw data from Embark to them, contacted the dog food maker for copper info, adjusted that and eliminated beef liver snacks, to be proactive on liver disease...will do bllod work on 3yr Annual checkup vet visit, etc.
So, Embark (and Wisdom, and VGL are all useful in slightly varying ways- especially to responsibe breeders of owners doing due diligence)
---
Relatives: found a male sibling of same litter, which gave both sides of haplotypes, confirming male euro, female north american, which was the back story on Bonnie, and it showed a COI 21%, so that was nice.
I have also gone back and checked occasionally (Bonnie is coming up on three and wearing a holter as we speak in prep of first preventative echo with cardio doc next)
Because one of the features of Embark is that as more folks use it, it gathers more data, including more distant relatives of your dog...useful for a family pet without AKC registration, with no other way to examine past pedigree.
And discovered more relatives, including one from Altobello at 48% relatedness (second cousin? ...I have lots of reading to do to understand pedigree and embark dna meaaures of relatedness)
which also confirms the need to be thinking ahead on DCM which IIRC that Altobello is known for champions in europe but higher DCM from those lines...
Anyway...great thread, and @kaloric I see you at reddit, too so thanks for the great convo's.
Also
@Ravenbird and @Rits for wise advice (and too many more to mention) and @JanS for making this place so indispensable for excellent explanations and breed info.Merry Christmas!
Last edited:
BG1
Hot Topics Subscriber
Thanks @Rits
I'm becoming a dobe dog nerd, i think...
From following all the useful info here at DCF and elsewhere by breeders like you who take the time to share.
I'm reading now at BetterBred and note anyone can create a free account, and get on newsletter, read the blog...very helpful for owner education and small breeders too.
I see there are Soluna and Adama dogs entered btw. Those names sound familiar?
Attachments
BG1
Hot Topics Subscriber
Here is some BetterBred info:
www.betterbred.com
About Us
Who are we?Founded in 2016, BetterBred LLC was born of a love for purebred dogs and their devoted breeders. BetterBred was created in response to the glaring need for multiple measurements to help identify, maintain and redistribute genetic diversity in several breeds. It was
www.betterbred.com
