My Dobermans are dying young of heart disease. Why?

[bluelou]

UPDATE: Yet another one of our Dobermans has died this past weekend. Angus was from the same litter as Malcolm, the dog who died last month. That's 3 deaths, all by age 4: the mother, Nellie, and the 2 sons we kept for our own. We have one remaining Doberman, Sid. He's 5 y.o. and doesn't share the exact same blood line as the 3 who have died.

I'll be looking for new Doberman pups soon, a boy and a girl, but we need to let some time pass. I'll be reaching out here again soon regarding breeder selection and Doberman health care. Thank you again for all of the fantastic advice and feedback.

 

[bluelou]

Thank you for this information. I had been giving them a nightly treat, FreshPet, that has peas in it. I'll eliminate that immediately.

 

[BGpa]

UPDATE: Yet another one of our Dobermans has died this past weekend. Angus was from the same litter as Malcolm, the dog who died last month. That's 3 deaths, all by age 4: the mother, Nellie, and the 2 sons we kept for our own. We have one remaining Doberman, Sid. He's 5 y.o. and doesn't share the exact same blood line as the 3 who have died.

I'll be looking for new Doberman pups soon, a boy and a girl, but we need to let some time pass. I'll be reaching out here again soon regarding breeder selection and Doberman health care. Thank you again for all of the fantastic advice and feedback.

So sorry for your loss, lou.
I think you are wise to sit back and grieve.

Taking time to reflect on what the dogs purpose is, in your life, pet and/or family guardian etc
will then lead to thinking about what breed, how to find the type (show vs working) within the breed, and of course
health and longevity.

I think @Ravenbird advice is very useful- on looking up the pedigree for longevity and documented testing by echo (see OFA for proof) and holter is best.

The Dobequest database is limited so if I am going to get another dobe (thinking carefully) then it will be by talking with other knowledgeable owners and the breeders they suggest. And doing my own deep dive on those pedigrees. The DPCA and UDC breeder referral pages are a start- but not perfect. AKC Marketplace does NOT verify anything except $$$ paid to advertise so buyer beware.

Going to regional shows is one way in addition to online, to meet people.

One last idea, as I've had mostly rescues in a long life of dogs, ...

In addition to using DPCA and UDC breeder referral sites,
There are a LOT of dobes in breed shelters needing a home. DPCA has a referral list:

https://www.dpca.org/rescue/

 

[JanS]

I'm so very sorry for your loss.


There must be very strong DCM factors in those lines and it's so heartbreaking for the owners to have to go through.

 

[bluelou]

I'm so very sorry for your loss.


There must be very strong DCM factors in those lines and it's so heartbreaking for the owners to have to go through.

Thank you for your condolences, JanS. Of the 3 that died, 2 of them had no genetic markers for DCM according to their Embark tests. I know the shortcomings of these tests have been mentioned here in the past. I figured I'd share the information since it confirms what's been discussed on this forum.

 

[Aaron56]

Is there a growing problem with heart disease in European Dobermans? Why didn't the genetic testing pick this up? Is it the breeder? Or, is it just bad luck?

Thank you in advance for any constructive comments.

I am going to go with bad luck.

The sort of bad luck that you can't really test for or predict with any real and measurable degree of certainty.


I had one girl from a pair of littermates tested out the wazoo for any sort of heart problems when her sister died due to DCM. Doggie heart specialists and such doing her testing and looking at her results sort of stuff...

She passed all of those tests because at that 'particular moment in time' her heart WAS functioning correctly.

6 months later was not...


In my case the dogs were 8yrs old when they came down with DCM and fairly quickly died.

If I had wanted to breed those girls and crank out puppies I could have done so pretty easily AND had the parents tested every single year they were being bred for signs of DCM (lets just say from 2 to 5 yrs old for the sake of discussion here) and those parents would have passed ALL of those tests...

No guarantee either that any of the pups produced from those girls would have doomed any of them to the same fate.



I 'could' spend a pile of money each year to test the girls I have currently and they could pass every year until... They don't pass.

Or they could never get it at all.

 

[BGpa]

I am going to go with bad luck.

The sort of bad luck that you can't really test for or predict with any real and measurable degree of certainty.


I had one girl from a pair of littermates tested out the wazoo for any sort of heart problems when her sister died due to DCM. Doggie heart specialists and such doing her testing and looking at her results sort of stuff...

She passed all of those tests because at that 'particular moment in time' her heart WAS functioning correctly.

6 months later was not...


In my case the dogs were 8yrs old when they came down with DCM and fairly quickly died.

If I had wanted to breed those girls and crank out puppies I could have done so pretty easily AND had the parents tested every single year they were being bred for signs of DCM (lets just say from 2 to 5 yrs old for the sake of discussion here) and those parents would have passed ALL of those tests...

No guarantee either that any of the pups produced from those girls would have doomed any of them to the same fate.



I 'could' spend a pile of money each year to test the girls I have currently and they could pass every year until... They don't pass.

Or they could never get it at all.

I'm thinking test BYB Bonnie (neutered and never was show quality) once every two years starting at 3. Its expensive and unless turns up the illness is considered proactive not covered, like wellness on my now changed to SPOT health insurance. So I budget for echo and holter and keep insurance as basically peace of mind budget friendly catastrophic covereage:
$1000 deduct, 80% on illness and injury to $10,000 cap. $660. Embrace went up from $600 to $950 so I shopped.

 

[JanS]

Echo and holter starting at age two will let you know ahead of time if something is off so they can take preventative measures.

 

[Aaron56]

I'm thinking test BYB Bonnie (neutered and never was show quality) once every two years starting at 3. Its expensive and unless turns up the illness is considered proactive not covered, like wellness on my now changed to SPOT health insurance. So I budget for echo and holter and keep insurance as basically peace of mind budget friendly catastrophic covereage:
$1000 deduct, 80% on illness and injury to $10,000 cap. $660. Embrace went up from $600 to $950 so I shopped.

I am positive that if I ever got doggie medical insurance they would never get sick again.

Thats how my luck runs it seems.

 

[BGpa]

Heh. Tell me about it...if I drop it now she gets a horrible disease that crushes us...like the $10k we spent on wifes soul dog 2 GSDs back that got a rare incurable skin cancer...

 

[BGpa]

So I have it setup for at age three:
Cardio $640, Holter rental $160 all by referral thru my vet.
If I went direct to a shiny new cardio its $1200, and $500 with 300 deposit back on holter and/or echo for $500 at a second dobe expert vet I found who no no longer in biz.

Cardio said "do the holter for as long as a week before echo" and "bring results and will read as part of first consult on echo."

This are SoCal prices.

If it comes back as positive, ie an illness my new SPOT insurance covers it, 80%, and meds.
If not then no coverage as its "preventative not covered. I set SPOT up as catastrophic $500 deductible, 80% to $10k at $670yr at age 2y9m now.
Replaces Embrace that just jumped to $960 from $600 in second year...no pre-existing, etc.on $1000 deduct, 90% to 5k cap.
Embrace said only "due to rising vet costs in CA".

I shopped several using the Wag portal. My guess is, and informally confirmed by a pet insurance person that these brands are owned by a couple underwriters...

Its a little like buying car batteries...they are only made in two places in US but sold for various prices under different brands, minir changes in capability.

Jury is out on customer service on claims at SPOT but seems straightforward- submit invoices thru portal vs Embrace get it from vet.

I could buy the trupanion unlimited at $300/mo and get echo/holter covered but you can do the math.

 

[BGpa]

Anyway...sorry again @bluelou for your loss, and going OT here on your OP...

 

[JanS]

Cardio said "do the holter for as long as a week before echo" and "bring results and will read as part of first consult on echo."

It would be helpful to have them read the holter results for you but if you want it OFA certified, you need to send the results to them. With OFA the holter needs to be done within 90 days of the echo.

 

[BGpa]

It would be helpful to have them read the holter results for you but if you want it OFA certified, you need to send the results to them. With OFA the holter needs to be done within 90 days of the echo.

Thanks! Good tip- reinforces the idea that holter and echo need to be roughly same time frame to be useful...

Fyi, BYB Bonnie is spayed -
and just "a performance pet"
so no OFA needed.

I did read an email from a sonogram tech who has a business going to clinics for some vets who noted OFA is now only accepting results from certified cardios...not GP vets?

So if you are a breeder and showing then you pay up.

 

[JanS]

OFA is now only accepting results from certified cardios...not GP vets?

That's the way it was with Elroy. I need to do Olive but I'm still not sure of the timeline after a spay.