Weekend Clinic - with Christian Gomez

Ravenbird

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I had a great learning experience this past weekend with Christian Gomez and the Endeavor Working Dog Club near Los Alamos, NM. Great people, felt welcomed to the group, we had two sessions each day, one in obedience and one in protection. Christian adjusted easily for each dogs needs and was SO intuitive toward the dogs and what they needed more of or less of. I probably had the least experienced dog and he adjusted her work and handling accordingly. I learned so much and have new training ideas to work with, especially in obedience. Asha learned plenty, including being in the crate all day, the Honda had both sliding doors open plus the back hatch, and a freaking Softball tournament was going on in the next field, all the softball players & fans parking in the same shady lot as the working dogs. People coming and going, cheers and shouts on one end, dogs barking on the other... she should have been experiencing this a year ago, but it is what it is. She did great, I'm so proud of her. Below, some work with 2 lines to help the dog differentiate between prey and defense. I also learned tons by watching other teams work. And Christian said, "this is a nice f***ing bitch" - which is the biggest compliment I could take home with me. (photo credit to Maryna Ozuna)


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Looks like Asha is showing her stuff out there! It must make you proud to have such a great opinion from a knowledgeable trainer
I really wasn't expecting much from Asha, just her normal stuff, but this guy was a perfect balance of criticism and compliment. LOL, the critique was mostly on me, which of course I needed to hear. It's how we learn!

Awesome stuff all around! Great compliment and loads of new knowledge to take home. I bet you're excited to get to working on everything! I love that feeling!
I am excited to work on it! I'm still hungry for more. Since most everyone was beyond me & Asha, most of the work I saw doesn't apply to us at this stage, so theres that...but yeah, putting what I learned into practice!

I love this!:thumbsup:!! how fun for you and Asha, even more so as it sounds she has IT
Yes!!!

Nice! A good helper should be able to read each dog and adjust to get the most out of them
Exactly!
 
After mentioning this 2-line method in another thread I'll address this comment here, waking up a 5 year old thread.

@Nordika said:

Good grief.

Do you think that the dog will differentiate the feeling of prongs in correction by the handler from aggravation by the decoy? Why would you use a tool to excite/aggravate/elevate the temperament...and the same tool to correct? If you use prongs to ellicit aggression towards a decoy, and prongs to correct your dog...you may find aggression when you don't want it. If a dog needs a prong to become CONDITIONED to EXPRESS POWER, instead of just having POWER TO BEGIN WITH, that dog is not a TRUE WORKING DOG. If you need a prong for capping, it means you don't have the dog with the drive necessary that you should have.


I probably gave the wrong impression in my short mention of using two lines and for that I apologize. The word "agitate" is commonly used in IGP referring to the helper teasing the dog with the rag, tug, bite pillow in early training. Agitation is referring to simply raising the dogs desire to get the toy and being held back, whether tied back or held back and then releasing the dog for the reward of the toy. Raising frustration makes them want it more, drive harder for it and bite harder and deeper when they do get the reward. Agitation at being held back is raised excitement and drive to get the prize. "Aggravation" and "Aggression" were never in the mix. This is a young dog just learning, it's all prey drive and play. The harness, made to lean into is the MAIN restraint. The prong pressure was added briefly to raise the arousal and determination of the dog. That's it. Not for capping anything, not for correcting anything, simply raising the arousal and determination that was already there. No f'n way would he have suggested it on a weak dog that had no interest or drive. You can't raise determination if it isn't there. You build these dogs with purpose, not frivolously.

Obviously if you have a killer dog who is wanting to attack the decoy instead of the sleeve it is not IGP sport, and that's a different conversation.

If you use prongs to ellicit aggression towards a decoy, There was zero aggression towards the decoy, only raised determination to get the toy. It's like a tree that prevents the dog from getting the squirrel. Some dogs jump relentlessly at the tree, some dogs say "I can't get it, I quit".

If a dog needs a prong to become CONDITIONED to EXPRESS POWER, instead of just having POWER TO BEGIN WITH, that dog is not a TRUE WORKING DOG. No dog "needed" a prong to become "conditioned to express power", it was simply a method. CG was quick to change anything that didn't encourage the dog in front of him. No dog was "aggressive" or mad. He rewarded every dog timely, they were never stressed and they came back for more - which is the whole point of training! The Hold & Bark in IGP must look serious and convincing and it's one of the first things we work on by holding on to the toy and the dog has to want it, has to bark and demand to get it and this all spills over into a good Hold & Bark in trial. Dogs learning to love the challenge, overcoming obstacles and wanting more. Every dog at that seminar was at some stage of learning, mine having seen a club helper maybe 4 or 5 times before in her life, some dogs there were IGP3 dogs. If indeed there was someone who had showed up with a prospect that was not a "TRUE WORKING DOG", he would not have put any type of any tool or training on it that would make it back down or quit. He would have done whatever was needed for that team to have a successful 2 days. He specializes in IGP but has a club that invites pet dog obedience training. He is one of the very sharpest at recognizing behavior and acting accordingly that I've seen. He was extremely easy-going and the dogs and people all felt at ease around him.

I want to clarify that I am a total amateur at IGP. I watched the sport with admiration since the 1980's, but never had the dog, the time or the people until I got this dog. It was my intention to do IGP with her but in the end, with the nearest club over 3 hours away, I just couldn't keep it up after a year. We had fun, we learned a TON even just dabbling in it, getting my BH, working on RH SAR training as well. I was lucky to find a good club that welcomed "off breeds" and a helper who worked well with all breeds.

This seminar with CG was not related to the club I belonged to, but I'd heard really good things about him as a helper & trainer and especially latched on to the fact that he loved working ALL breeds. These two days 5 years ago introduced me to a talented IGP helper/trainer using new ideas and working with individual dogs needs, reading dogs in an instant, backing off or adding on to the picture you want the dog to see. So many trainers/clubs can't see how to change their ways when a different dog with different problems is in front of them. Too many Dobermans especially are dissed without giving them a chance because they don't present like GSDs or Mals. We all know that IGP is a choreographed pattern set precisely so that a judge can see all the entrants do exactly the same thing and measure scores on each exercise. This is not personal protection training, it's a progression of skills performed by the human/dog team in 3 phases of tracking, obedience and protection.
 
Lol, Just fyi, I was doing Schutzhund with my GSDs in the 70s, likely before you were even born. 😅
This chat forum encourages conversation - that's the whole point of a chat forum - and even though I was addressing your comment, I realize that to keep the conversation open to all readers, I try to explain things as I go to people who may know nothing about the sport.

I'm so happy for you doing SchH since the 70's. You obviously know a lot and have years of experience. You are welcome to share your experiences and how you trained, and compare to the way things are done now. I've been wishing we had more people here to post in this Schutzhund & Protection Sports threads. Feel free to start your own thread and share your stories!

For whatever reason it might matter to you, I was alive & well & attending college in 1975. 🤷‍♀️
 
Well, from the perspective of someone thinking about next big dog, thinking either GSD or Dobe, "with a job to do"...
I'm interested in IGP, impressed by the people who take it up later in life, and as a dog nerd;

Have a ton of questions about how its evolved over the year, esp from its roots in Germany, where if I recall you could not breed the dog until it passed its first test in temperament.

I read elsewhere that Dobes dont do as well, as a whole here in the US for a variety of reasons, sometimes its said that ScH being developed for the GSD breed innate drive, temperament, behaviors doesnt really reward the differences innate to a multi-breed origin dobe.

What is your opinion on that @Nordika?
How has ScH/IPO/IGP evolved over the years since your time doing so?
Can you say more about what you did in GSD IGP and how that helps you with Rollo, and your goals for him?

I'm fascinated by the conversation in training to proof temperament, drive, behavior for the one breed originated for "man protector".

It would seem to me to be a high compliment to any trainer able to apply IGP format to different breeds, inc Dobes.
How to "proof" a breed in IGP or something similar that measures the function is at least as important (more so imho in any dog with a function) as confo,

And from my dog nerd perspective harder to learn about, sitting at a desk tapping keys, so HUGE respect for those on that road with their dogs, now or in past and thank you all so much for sharing.

One thing I notice in dog world is their are a lot of opinions. I prefer frank interchanges, towards the goal of understanding.
Thanks again to all big dog owners (and wanna be dobe dogs, too)...😊
 
PS: @Ravenbird I too at first wondered about the use of prong for "activating" as I thought in my case, as a noob,

That might confuse BYB Bonnie as the prong its only for corrections, and btw, once the proper behavior is well practised, ..is now used less and less now, but handy to have...I "think" she understands about skunks...but just in case I make sure she is on leash, on prong, or off leash, on ecollar as a reminder: "leave it!"...just last night after dark return from late sunset hike we passed the neighborhhod striped skunk out looking for food, as usual scavenging crumbs from the HOA pool area where the Mommies sunbathe with kids, and the neighbors feed their little dog on the porch, spilling kibble in the bushes below...🥸

She is pretty sensitive, and per a caution by @MikeP and a Mike Ellis video on e-collars and "suspicious behaviors" I'm being very careful in what and how I am trying to communicate. Bonnie has great home defense instincts but an assessment at 10 months on protection training was "she's a runner"...🤣
She is just a pet, in a neighborhood full of kids, so based on that I've socialized and trained her that she is NOT to address threats outside the home, as thats my job, plus now she is trained as Service Dog, under the collar she has to be, and is, very non-confrontational...ok to watch, look but dont touch. And when people want to pet her, no thanks she is working under the vest and that means no pets, much as she might like...

But for the next one, a working line male, I'd be looking for something fiercer, a different job, so getting MY understanding and training plans in place is a first step. Including if I have the time and energy to do justice to IGP...and that includes the availability of working clubs, time to travel...there isnt much here- mostly in the Bay Area, Central Valley- 6-8 hour drive...

I also have read the use of a harness, pulling back on it, is what primed the dog to attack, plus the threats made by decoy.

And so I reread the posts and your description of Christian experimenting with that, as not a full time thing, that would possibly confuse the dog, but lets see how we can get Asha spun up, in that one session.
So, interesting idea, depends on "the dog in front of you".

@Ravenbird based on your latest descriptions of Asha, you dont need much to "activate" her, defense drive based on her barking...😅
Is there anything you do otherwise, to get Asha to alert, or get ramped up, as needed? A verbal prompt, gesture?

PS: I've been thinking of getting the IGP type harness used for training and using it for biking, maybe bike-joring, if thats acceptable for light load-bearing, fits dobes.
Any suggestions on best ones made for Dobes?@remy, @MikeP, @Nordika , @JanS , @Ravenbird, @Katyusharocket or others?
 
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I was alive & well & attending college in 1975.
I think a good share of us were at least in our teens in the 70's.

I've been thinking of getting the IGP type harness used for training and using it for biking, maybe bike-joring, if thats acceptable for light load-bearing, fits dobes.
I have no idea about IGP type harnesses since the one I ordered is for weight pull made for heavier weight. They are all designed differently.
 
Any suggestions on best ones made for Dobes?@remy, @MikeP, @Nordika , @JanS , @Ravenbird, @Katyusharocket or others?
I don't do any bite sports work with any of my dogs. It's not that I am not interested in it, and I really respect the people who have chosen to do it, and do it correctly, it's just that I haven't found it close to me, and admittedly, I am not searching it out. So I can't help you with any equipment selection. I could help with a show lead, or what you might want before trying precision coursing. My next purchase I think will be a wide, well-built collar with a handle on it for the PC competitions. I think that would help at the holding line. But PC trials are show up when you can and they take you and your'e done in 5 minutes (in my experience so far), so it won't be a fourth collar for her to wear at once to stir up any controversy about whether my dog "looks" like it's out of control or not.
 
biking, maybe bike-joring, if thats acceptable for light load-bearing, fits dobes.
I'd get a dogjoring harness designed for that like from "non-stop dogwear" and not a leather harness with a big breastplate that is often used in protection. @remy would have more feedback on the dogjoring harnesses!
 
I was doing Schutzhund with my GSDs in the 70s, likely before you were even born. 😅
...and the sport and knowledge has evolved A TON since! I'm not discrediting your experience, however, we never (or should never) stop learning nor stop being open to civil discussion from alternative angles. Age does not necessarily equate to all knowing.
 
She is pretty sensitive, and per a caution by @MikeP and a Mike Ellis video on e-collars and "suspicious behaviors" I'm being very careful in what and how I am trying to communicate. Bonnie has great home defense instincts but an assessment at 10 months on protection training was "she's a runner"..
Kevin ….the assessment of Bonnie being a “runner” at 10 months might have been premature depending on the level of pressure applied to incite —>defence —>fight or avoidance. In the absence of a foundation of prey drive developed through motivational play and a development of confidence as the win game of tug and +Reinforcement then in a situation where a 'green' pup is exposed to innocent threat (as viewed from the human perspective) then yes it most likely will run. No escape Table training comes to mind.

I'll take the liberty to offer a unsolicited advice and link to Marko Koskensalo and Sarah Prelle CanEmo site // GET TRAINING | Canemo Dog Training and the free in-depth learning videos — of which BTW I am an advocate of their measures — for the sole purpose of the preliminary steps required along your journey to the world of dog sport with a prospective new recruit. I strongly advise and encourage to take the time to follow through on EACH of the series of free vids. The 'catch' to the freebie highly invaluable and entertaining duo's content is a once only view and therefore an impatient scroll through advances to the next series of videos. Therefore taking the time and dedication to store into the warehouse of useful knowledge the training principles for optimal results will pay huge dividends down the line. Create a 'no pressure' account — other than an email now and then — enables access.

PS: I've been thinking of getting the IGP type harness used for training and using it for biking, maybe bike-joring, if thats acceptable for light load-bearing, fits dobes.
Any suggestions on best ones made for Dobes?
The IGP agitation harness also doubles as a tracking harness is available through Fordogtrainers. The explicit purpose such harness is to message the dog once it is strapped on is that 'it's now game on' in the sense it’s now time to 'work'. Hopefully then extrapolate from that, then it’s not what you want for dual purpose such as bike- jouring with the same dog (your new pending recruit) concurrent with IGP and bitework. For Bonnie she would look impressive suited in one, yet you might get a few cursory rude glances with onlookers eyeballs rolled up. Underline impressive IYKWIM if you walk or bike the streets of big city USA after dark. Odds are a thousand to one neither you nor Bonnie will encounter anything other than that skunk tormenting Bonnie nightly. Lastly, the sturdy authentic 100 bucks a pop all purpose Julius brand is what I use for the laid back leg weary purposes such as bike-jouring and trailing and tracking scent work in hometown big city as the suitable modus operandi during the current trajectory of the sunset of life.🥸

In the common bond of Dobermans/Dobermanns ……Mikel
 
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