After mentioning this 2-line method in another thread I'll address this comment here, waking up a 5 year old thread.
@Nordika said:
Good grief.
Do you think that the dog will differentiate the feeling of prongs in correction by the handler from aggravation by the decoy? Why would you use a tool to excite/aggravate/elevate the temperament...and the same tool to correct? If you use prongs to ellicit aggression towards a decoy, and prongs to correct your dog...you may find aggression when you don't want it. If a dog needs a prong to become CONDITIONED to EXPRESS POWER, instead of just having POWER TO BEGIN WITH, that dog is not a TRUE WORKING DOG. If you need a prong for capping, it means you don't have the dog with the drive necessary that you should have.
I probably gave the wrong impression in my short mention of using two lines and for that I apologize. The word "agitate" is commonly used in IGP referring to the helper teasing the dog with the rag, tug, bite pillow in early training. Agitation is referring to simply raising the dogs desire to get the toy and being held back, whether tied back or held back and then releasing the dog for the reward of the toy. Raising frustration makes them want it more, drive harder for it and bite harder and deeper when they do get the reward. Agitation at being held back is raised excitement and drive to get the prize. "Aggravation" and "Aggression" were never in the mix. This is a young dog just learning, it's all prey drive and play. The harness, made to lean into is the MAIN restraint. The prong pressure was added briefly to raise the arousal and determination of the dog. That's it. Not for capping anything, not for correcting anything, simply raising the arousal and determination that was already there. No f'n way would he have suggested it on a weak dog that had no interest or drive. You can't raise determination if it isn't there. You build these dogs with purpose, not frivolously.
Obviously if you have a killer dog who is wanting to attack the decoy instead of the sleeve it is not IGP sport, and that's a different conversation.
If you use prongs to ellicit aggression towards a decoy, There was zero aggression towards the decoy, only raised determination to get the toy. It's like a tree that prevents the dog from getting the squirrel. Some dogs jump relentlessly at the tree, some dogs say "I can't get it, I quit".
If a dog needs a prong to become CONDITIONED to EXPRESS POWER, instead of just having POWER TO BEGIN WITH, that dog is not a TRUE WORKING DOG. No dog "needed" a prong to become "conditioned to express power", it was simply a method. CG was quick to change anything that didn't encourage the dog in front of him. No dog was "aggressive" or mad. He rewarded every dog timely, they were never stressed and they came back for more - which is the whole point of training! The Hold & Bark in IGP must look serious and convincing and it's one of the first things we work on by holding on to the toy and the dog has to want it, has to bark and demand to get it and this all spills over into a good Hold & Bark in trial. Dogs learning to love the challenge, overcoming obstacles and wanting more. Every dog at that seminar was at some stage of learning, mine having seen a club helper maybe 4 or 5 times before in her life, some dogs there were IGP3 dogs. If indeed there was someone who had showed up with a prospect that was not a "TRUE WORKING DOG", he would not have put any type of any tool or training on it that would make it back down or quit. He would have done whatever was needed for that team to have a successful 2 days. He specializes in IGP but has a club that invites pet dog obedience training. He is one of the very sharpest at recognizing behavior and acting accordingly that I've seen. He was extremely easy-going and the dogs and people all felt at ease around him.
I want to clarify that I am a total amateur at IGP. I watched the sport with admiration since the 1980's, but never had the dog, the time or the people until I got this dog. It was my intention to do IGP with her but in the end, with the nearest club over 3 hours away, I just couldn't keep it up after a year. We had fun, we learned a TON even just dabbling in it, getting my BH, working on RH SAR training as well. I was lucky to find a good club that welcomed "off breeds" and a helper who worked well with all breeds.
This seminar with CG was not related to the club I belonged to, but I'd heard really good things about him as a helper & trainer and especially latched on to the fact that he loved working ALL breeds. These two days 5 years ago introduced me to a talented IGP helper/trainer using new ideas and working with individual dogs needs, reading dogs in an instant, backing off or adding on to the picture you want the dog to see. So many trainers/clubs can't see how to change their ways when a different dog with different problems is in front of them. Too many Dobermans especially are dissed without giving them a chance because they don't present like GSDs or Mals. We all know that IGP is a choreographed pattern set precisely so that a judge can see all the entrants do exactly the same thing and measure scores on each exercise. This is not personal protection training, it's a progression of skills performed by the human/dog team in 3 phases of tracking, obedience and protection.
