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To be or not to be a breeder

Discussion in 'Doberman Breeders' started by Dobs4ever, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Thanks and that is an amazing story - It is a great sport for young people to get invovled in and sadly we have way too few coming on learning the sport - any sport for that fact that involves animals. Same in hores not near enough young people learning and coming up through the ranks.

     
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  2. freem6

    freem6 Hot Topics Subscriber

    Thankfully I had a lot of great mentors and an amazing mom who let me go live in a German shepherd Kennel at only 13 years old! I am always on the lookout for a young person who I can mentor in dog obedience. (other then my own children who I am trying not to mentor too much!;) )
     
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  3. dh8

    dh8 Hot Topics Subscriber

    People who don't breed or want to breed are concerned about backyard breeding also. Too often potential buyers don't want to know everything they should check-they just want a cute puppy at the cheapest price they can find. There is also way more scamming/marketing of puppymilled pups through private homes than people realize...a lot like the used cars from auctions were only driven buy their grandmother to church for years.

    Backyard breeders often think they can save money by skipping tests or vaccinations, etc. It's also cheaper for them when they can sell off pups at 6 weeks instead of the proper 8 weeks. One of my favorite sales pitches is "raised with children". The pups are babies and whether or not they had children around them as babies hs NO bearing on how the adult dog will be with anyone.
     
  4. MicheleM

    MicheleM Active Member


    I've had this breed well over twenty years and after studing pedigrees and breeders for months I found Junos breeder and flew down to Calfornia and brought her home at twelve weeks. I have spent three years of our lives showing, health testing and researching stud dogs and pedigrees to have Juno bred. My goal three years ago was to have her bred if everything fell into place. So yes it was my goal to breed right from the start. It's been a long journey but this was my intention from the start.

    Where is your girl from?
     
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  5. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    I agree with everything that has been said. One very important thing that needs be mentioned is that our breeders need to be mentoring!

    All of this hard work will completely go to a waste if that knowledge is not passed down. I understand breeding is not for everyone, but breeders need to pick at a bare minimum one person to pass everything on to. After all no one can live forever. All of that hard work would be for nothing if it dies with the person who holds all that knowledge.

    I too intend on one day becoming a breeder. It is at least a decade away, but something I intend to do nonetheless. I am very fortunate that my breeder as well as many others are mentoring me on this.
    You all know who you are so I won't call you out. I have miles upon miles of information to take in, but being able to have someone help me along the way makes a world of a difference.
     
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  6. obbanner

    obbanner $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    Thought I'd share this article I found. Many of you will probably see this on Facebook.

    http://talentedanimals.com/blog/a-letter-to-breeders/

    A Letter to Breeders

    Animal Politics and Philosophy: Welfare, Rights, and Interests, Ethics of animal ownership, Random Thoughts, Uncategorized Add comments
    Feb 122013

    Dear Dog, and other animal, Breeders,

    Over the past few years, dog breeders have been included in much controversy, and I want to take a minute to address all “serious” dog breeders directly:
    Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! You have so deeply enriched and improved my life, and the lives of nearly every person I know, and I want to encourage and implore each and every one of you to keep breeding and know that your efforts are well recognized and understood by many of us, even if that truth is sometimes lost in the clamor…


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    Dog breeders are often vilified by Animal Rights zealots, by well-meaning but woefully misguided members of the public who have been persuaded that breeders are causing overpopulation and filling shelters, by rescuers and shelter workers whose views of the world have become so skewed by the war they are waging that they have lost all perspective, and by those in the media who prefer drama to truth.

    Breeders are the solution, not the problem. You are the true heroes stewarding the present and the future of dogs. You are the ones creating healthy, well-structured animals with great temperaments and excellent early socialization. You are the ones funding health research. You are the ones devoting your lives and resources to the betterment of the species. You are the ones who put in twenty hour days giving your puppies everything and then wake up three times during the night to check on them. You are the ones whose dogs are virtually never in shelters because you do such a good job screening and placing and taking back dogs. You are the ones who have virtually eliminated overpopulation within your realm and in fact created a shortage of good dogs such that it often takes years of waiting before a puppy is available.


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    That another, completely unrelated, group of idiots allows their dogs to keep reproducing for no good reason and filling shelters; that a few profit-driven miscreants breed countless dogs in horrid conditions; that rescues and shelters keep placing horrific dogs in homes so that they bounce back and keep the system full; that naivety motivates the unnatural and unsustainable notion of no-kill, that by nature dogs produce more puppies than are needed and so some excess and attrition are unavoidable—these things are not your fault!

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    Yes, there are issues that breeders need to improve—breeding towards extremes, prioritizing the wrong goals, breeding too young, over-breeding certain lines, placing excessive value on breed purity, hostility towards differing opinions, elitist attitudes, undervaluing balance—and I hope breeders will continue to improve. And yes, there are some awful breeders out there. But all in all, it is you who have created the wonderful dogs of today, and you who will create the wonderful dogs of tomorrow, and my gratitude for that is nearly boundless. And while there are some lovely accidentally bred dogs in shelters (I have a few!), and some awful dogs being produced by breeders, at the end of the day the quality of dogs generally being produced by careful breeders is leaps and bounds higher than what is generally available in shelters.


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    All the mindless anti-breeder rhetoric is nothing more than misleading hate-mongering that points the blame in the wrong direction: if breeders, and the public, buy into this mindless propaganda, we will lose all the good dogs in a few years, with virtually no reduction in the number of poorly bred dogs filling the shelters.
    So please, keep up the good work and know how much you and your hard work are appreciated. And above all, know that the fabulous creatures you produce are dearly loved and valued.
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  7. nemerabengals

    nemerabengals Notable member

    Breeding ANYTHING has it's ups and downs. As a Bengal cat breeder and from watching my grandmother breed GSD, golden retrievers, and Himalayan cats.... I have learned that breeding is a very difficult hobby. I have been ripped off. I have been trashed publicly. I bought a stud male from lines not scanned for HCM and when I scanned him (at 4 years old) he was POSITIVE. He had already sired many, many litters before I got him and sired one litter of AMAZINGLY beautiful and perfect to the standard (ok, nearly perfect) Bengal kittens worth $2500 each BEFORE we found out he was positive. We neutered him immediately and neutered/spayed both kittens. I spent DAYS crying over my baby boy. I didn't even care that I wouldn't make money from him. I was so distraught because I now knew that he was sick and there was nothing I could do about it and it was all because someone didn't test.

    Breeding is hard. Sometimes, it feels like all the bad much outweighs the good.... but then you look at those tiny newborns and you remember why you agreed to all the bad.... because the good is SO good. If you love Dobermans and you love creating wonderful healthy babies that make everyone who buys one the happiest person on Earth - keep doing it. Ignore the hateful people and ALWAYS do what is best for your breeding animals, you, and your family.

    I hope that helps some. I appreciate what you do, breeding these magnificent dogs and I hope you will find the strength to carry on! We're rooting for you!
     
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  8. dh8

    dh8 Hot Topics Subscriber

    You may feel the kittens were worth $2500 but I guarrantee you the buyers would not feel the same way after learning the sire was never tested and has the most common cardiac disease in cats; where affected cats are known to drop dead suddenly from the disease. Without proper testing of both parents and the pups or kittens, the buyer is essentially paying top dollar for a backyard bred animal with no greater likelihood of being healthy than any animal they adopt anywhere. That is very wrong, to say the least.

    If the buyers found out about this, they have every right to be very angry. You don't get a "whoops, my bad" factor when you charge people thousands of dollars for an animal that will be loved like family. One of the common sales pitches is "you never know what you're getting from a shelter but here you know have a pretty, young, healthy animal that will grow with your family". That is the seller/breeder ripping off the buyer. Feeling you have been "ripped off" or treated badly doesn't give you any right to pass that treamtent along to others.

    The truth is that unless buyers do intense research first and walk away without proof that breeders did all reasonable testing on both parents, they have no idea what they're getting but they're paying a massive chunk of change anyway.

    If the cats you sold at a great profit without full proper medical testing of both parents don't drop dead without warning, the buyers may have to make a choice on whether they can deal financially and emotionally with trying to keep a sick cat alive. Some people bleed their savings and others dump them at shelters.

    It's is responsible that you fixed him and the kittens from the second litter once you did the full proper testing. Since you didn't do the testing until after his second litter, I'm guessing the testing was prompted by the cat showing signs of the illness. An accident that saved lots of future cats and owners from suffering but still an accident. You certainly didn't do anything on purpose but that doesn't make things better for anyone who has a sick cat from which you profited the same as if you had done all the proper testing before breeding.

    Backyard breeding is all about producing the beautiful baby animal that will make the most $$$. Quality breeding is about producing the best standards from the healthiest lines to keep the breed standards (in essence the breed itself) intact and then to make money. Unless someone can invest thousands in medical testing alone for both parents and not worry if you have to test a few animals before finding the best proper breeding animal, they shouldn't be thinking of breeding. The cruelty that can easily result for both the animals and owners is far too great even for a handsome profit.

    I was doing pro bono work in a shelter and got a call from an older woman in absolute tears. I can't tell you how bad I felt for her. Even her kids were emotionally drained and wanting her to get rid of the dog because they couldn't stand to see their mom's continued suffering. She had a pretty but not quite show quality young cocker spaniel she bought less than one year prior. She already spent >$4,000 on vet bills and still the dog wasn't even at the point of house trained because of all the repeated illnesses. She was truly desperate and had no idea what to do as her savings was rapidly dwindling and her p/t retirement employment wasn't enough to keep up with the bills.

    First, I checked on her vet and got good recommendations on him. Second, I got with the vet to make sure of where the dog was at healthwise to make certain we could proceed with training. He was completely on board and even threw in a free exam, which he had no reason to do other than he was a really good guy and felt bad for this woman. Then she gave a $25 donation to the shelter to use one of the larger crates the shelter had from donations and we started basic training. In less than 2 weeks the dog was completely on track with house training and moving forward with the rest of basic training. After 2 months, she called to say she would adopt any cocker spaniel I found as her finances were now very stable with ample reserve for vet care if needed. She was a totally different woman knowing the pet she planned to love into the end of her days would be ok and wanted her to have company. (She adopted a 7 yr old cocker I pulled from a kill shelter sight unseen-who cost her nothing more than routine vet bills for years.)

    The dog suffered for a year and an older woman was bled financially after she paid over $1,000 for what she was assured was a healthy puppy. It is because of many stories like this that I am for true quality breeding or no breeding at all. BYB is nothing more than puppymilling with a pretty sales package on a smaller scale.
     
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  9. keystone

    keystone Hot Topics Subscriber

    I have a few breeder friends of different breeds and they do make or have a profit of varied amounts after each litter, however, when they take the number of hours they had put in to whelping and raising pups for 10 weeks its several hundred hours of labor. Divide those labor hours into the money they made and they are making maybe $2.50/hour. I think breeders only make a profit if they do not ever pay themselves. Most money made is put right back into the dogs with showing and training etc. The other thing that my breeder friends complain about is the people who want to breed dogs today do not want to take the time to learn what is necessary, pay their dues by going to shows, and do not have a plan or goal for a breeding program beyond producing puppies. My friends know their pedigrees and bloodlines and all say that they have offered to mentor new people, but the new people looking to breed do not want to study pedigrees, do not want to show, do not want to take the time to develop a plan for how they will improve the breed.

    They have tried to get me to become a breeder because I am fascinate by the science (genetics) and the art (experience & knowledge) required to produce good puppies. I however am retired and have no desire to put in the extensive hours required to raise puppies to the standard that I see my friends raise their pups. I do though willingly lend a helping hand when they need a well deserved break for some un-interrupted sleep. I think all purebreds need people who want to breed, who enjoy both the science and the art of breeding, and who are willing to work so hard to ensure good examples of the breed are being produced. Good purebred dogs do not happen by accident, but rather as the result of a good breeding plan/program and dedicated person in charge.

    and to the OP I am so sorry for your loss, I can't imagine loosing a mom and so many pups as well - that is just heartbreaking.
     
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  10. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Thank you for the kind words but It was not me that lost the litter. I wrote the artical after reading several heartbreaking stories here. Breeding is not for everyone and it is not for the faint of heart. My vet told me some folks regardless are just not made to be breeders. He said it took a special feel and talent. Dont' know about that but does make you wonder and it is not to be taken lightly
     
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  11. Silent Dobe

    Silent Dobe Well-Known Member

    I just want to point out that me, before getting Silence, had only a GSD I trained for fun. There are no working Dobes in Chicago. I had never attended a show that had a Dobermann in it. GSD and Mals were all I had to watch here. Then out of trust from the breeder, he gave me the puppy. Now, he's the only titled dog from his litter and he is DUEL titled at that. I have had little to no guidance until I met up finally with Waine. So, not EVERYONE has to sit and watch dog shows to get a feel for the dog. Some of us learn as we go, as did Silence and me.

    I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just pointing out that maybe a lot of QUALITY people that can really contribute to the breed, are run off from statements like this.
     
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  12. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Silence there is a WHOLE lot of difference from a person who has trained GSD or any dog and someone who had never investigated or experienced a show or training deciding to get a dog and breed. If they are wanting a dog for competiton or showing then they need to know more than the average pet person. But some folks do get lucky inspite of themselves. You were familiar with what purebred meant due to your GSD. That put you ahead of most that I was referring to.

    But i stand by the statment and if someone reads it and is turned off then probably breeding is not for them anyway because they are not open to attending shows or trails and learning.
     
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  13. Silent Dobe

    Silent Dobe Well-Known Member

    I'm not saying just breeding. I'm just saying getting into the breed itself. I also didn't know much past the experience of a "pet person" when I purchased Silence.

    Now, I'm not saying EVERYONE needs a chance. You get a feeling from a person, and some are better than others at it. You are right that the vast majority of "I want a cool looking Doberman" people are not for the breed. However, you are wanting younger people to take the torch...but most are being run away from sharp statements. I am all for trying to word things correctly and I don't argue online anymore because I was becoming a Preacher instead of training my own dogs. I was focused on being right. I am certainly not that person anymore. Perhaps then, instead of editing our words to fit a softer crowd, we need to be more "hands on" in actually inviting the RIGHT people into the breed. THEN, and only then, can we talk about breeding. Maybe our breed club can host an orientation night introducing the breed? Or something along those lines. We need to be more proactive!!!! Instead of JUST stating what people shouldn't do...HELP them. Since you can't take their dogs away or get them fixed, might as well educate but not preach. I hope that made sense. Lol!!!
     
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  14. mtblack2011

    mtblack2011 Novitiate

    I am new here but not to breeding. I tried many years ago and I could feel every labor pain, can't do it. That being said, I have many friends who are breeders and I can tell you that Breeders are not in it for money, for fame, for any reason but the love of the breed and making it better. They spend every dime they have, give them all their time, attention...everything else takes a back seat....the husbands and wives of breeders are my heros. They are secure individuals that respect a spouse that is driven for greatness. I bought mine for pets but for all of you who breed for the betterment of the breed and show, my hat is off to you. I know how hard it is, it is the toughest job in the world. I couldn't do it.
     
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  15. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    I was never talking about getting a breed for the first time. The thread was about breeding after some of the tragic stories posted here and dobes are not for everyone and neither are GSD if someone is not willing to train them. Anyone asking for help can get it freely. I have not heard anyone be sharp. One has to handle criticism- you should have heard Waine chew me out this weekend!!!.
     
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  16. nemerabengals

    nemerabengals Notable member

    I think you misunderstood. I bought this cat at 3 years old and he had never been tested. He was bred by another breeder before I ever got him for several litters.

    When I tested him BEFORE I sold the kittens from his ONLY litter with me.... I found out he was positive (actually, the EKG was inconclusive and he needs a ECG, but the cardiologist who read the EKG told me I should not risk him having a heart attack from breeding because even if it was HCM - something was wrong with his heart) and I neutered him and the kittens. I never sold any kitten without testing the parents. And I should have tested him before breeding. That was MY failure. And I should have never bought from untested lines. Also, my failure. But I did NOT sell any cat without telling the owners about their father. I also sold the kittens for less than I spent on them because I wanted good homes that understood that their baby may very well have a heart issue now or in the future.

    So, please read carefully before you begin to insult someone. Thanks. I am a responsible and ethical breeder and I do not appreciate being scolded in public. Especially for something I did NOT do. I haven't made a penny on any of my cats. Not one. I breed because I love Bengal cats and I want to be bring people happiness with them. I breed because I want to be better than the "breeders" who have burned me and other by being irresponsible, untrustworthy, and uncaring about their cats.


     
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  17. Silent Dobe

    Silent Dobe Well-Known Member

    Have tact is all I ask. THEN maybe you will get us younger folk to participate. Just look at the quoted post above. It was harsh and uncalled for and an uninformed answer. With that, this is why I do not post on forums much. I only get angry. So, taking another long hiatus after this. Toodles.
     
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  18. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I may regret not starting another thread, something like "So you think you want to be a breeder" I just hope this post gets the attention I think it deserves.

    I went to stay with D4E for several days. I got there on Friday and left on Tuesday. OMG! If you are thinking of becoming a breeder, I suggest before you do, go and spend some time with a breeder. I did and it confirmed that I do not want to even consider it. I'll just tell you a bit about a day in the life of a breeder.
    First, you must have a kennel that has to be heated and cooled. The kennel is vital because in order to have a decent program, you have to have more than one or two dogs to breed. The dogs need to have access to outside for fresh air and exercise. That means you have to have a way to get them out, maybe a door on a pulley system and time training the dog to go out or in. Somewhere near your kennel you have to have water for the dogs and to hose the kennels out everyday. Ok, now we have spent &1000's of dollars and don't even have a litter or purchased any crates, bowls, food or dogs. WOW!
    Now, let's start our day. Get up early go out to let the dogs out to potty. While they are out in the runs, feed and water them. Don't forget to clean the kennel. Now, let the dogs in and let them eat. While they are eating, you must clean the runs where they just went potty. Back to the house because you have a some dogs that are your show dogs or pups that need attention, letting out and fed. Now let's go back to the kennel because we the dogs have had some time after eating, so they need to go out. Back to the house because you have pups to socialize and you have to get ready to leave for a day of training. Ok, now you are starving because you have not had time to eat. Grab something quick and load the dogs in a vehicle that is dedicated to just dog stuff because there is no way you could load and unload the stuff you need for training everyday. Now load the dogs and off to training. Spend the day working your dog(s) and pray you have time for something to eat. Now you are back home and I know what you are thinking...time to sit down and catch your breath, right? WRONG! Now you have to feed, water and clean all over again.
    Trust me, this is an exhausting day and I didn't even mention anything about cleaning your house, doing laundry or any other daily household chores. Not to mention, I am sure there are things that I forgot to mention. Things like researching pedigrees for your next breeding, keeping in touch with your families and helping them with any problems or just to hear what a happy, healthy life your baby has gone to.
    If you really want to become a breeder, you have to dedicate your life to it. You can forget vacations or any life outside of your dogs.
    My hats off to any responsible breeder. I do not mean to say that puppy mills are acceptable in anyway, but I do understand more how someone with the best intentions could get lost and overwhelmed by the enormous responsibility that breeding really is.
     
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  19. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Well Paint I will say you got broke in right - Sadly I did not get to spend as much time with you because yes dogs come first. I hope you did not feel too neglected but when you have a workshop the workload does not stop. But the fun for me was getting to work with you and Drake after the workshop.

    After you left I thought OK I think I will just go take a nap for a couple hours and get up at 5 but then decided no if I did not go clean up after the mid morn then I would not have things ready for evening so spent the two hours for nap cleaning kennels and runs and the back yard which did get neglected. By then it was time to feed but I did eat at 4:30 finally and then evening chores at 7:30 finally got to sit down.

    If you ask 10 breeders how to breed you would probably get 10 different answers and they are all right if they are successful, knowledgable and caring. I have thought a lot about the term HOBBY breeder and have always wondered how we got that label as I think it is dead wrong. I want a professional breeder who knows what the heck they are doing. Hobby to me says for fun and breeding is not a fun activity. It is challenging, rewarding, frustrating, disappointing, exhilerating and you need to have the knowledge of a nurse or doctor, geneticist, dog trainer, pooper scooper and PR all rolled into one.
    That is not a hobby.
     
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  20. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    :mad:You better not!;)
     
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