Question to anyone who has ever bought or bred a dog.

[Ataro]

Haggling a price.It didn't matter if it was the price of a pack of gum from a street peddler,the price of a ponch in a shop to the price of a fishing ponga for the day,the first price given and the price paid weren't the same,but somewhere in the middle.

I think you misunderstood my previous post. I meant that nobody in Mexico has ever not stated a price. Like if I went to buy something at the market and asked how much, they don't just stand there or get offended and not answer me. At best they give me a slightly higher than average price, or they try to really rip me off. I'm no stranger to haggling if that's what you're thinking, I take my "student discount" plea everywhere I go. Mexico isn't even one of the worst places - carpet salesmen in Morocco and Beirut's taxi drivers from hell come to mind.

These breeders who refuse to name a price - some of them didn't even answer my email at all when I asked them more directly a second time. It's as if you should somehow, through some extraordinary means such as telepathy, know the price without asking.

 

[Gelcoater]

Then I did misunderstand,my mistake.

If they refuse to name a price,move on.If they didn't even respond to a second email,either they took offense or don't have a desire to sell to foreigners would be my guess?

 

[Ataro]

Ugh, I was hoping to avoid the racism bit. I just hope I don't get a shock turning up somewhere looking like my un-European self, and get turned away at the door. I think it's highly unlikely but still, just the thought.

 

[Ingrid H]

What sort of kennels are you emailing, Ataro? Are you communicating with world-famous kennels or lesser known ones?

 

[Ataro]

A wide range: Hunnoterra, Moravia Heart, Betelges, Gaindyke, Perlanera, Tahi-Reme, von Sentinel, Tira Vento, della Via del Samurai, Lazodobi, Elite House, Schwarze Kraft, Noblesshof, Kriegerhof, Dura Lex Polonia, Nobili Nati, King of Darkness, Haus Liopiris, Karpatia, Erebus, Yacheero's, of Devil Inside, Way Out West, Dob-Shangri-La, Padoku, von Nemesis, Miratio, Ramonburg's, Duinezicht, Morgantina, Centipede, Lucus Augusti, Villa Valiano

 

[Judith]

I am far from an expert as I have only bred one litter and I am not breeding again, but I would have had no issues with you asking as many questions as you liked and everyone knew the price of the puppies before they phoned, I also asked loads of questions and met the prospective buyers before making a decision, I also turned people away if I was not happy about any of the answerers or had a gut feeling but some do slip through the net as I did take one puppy back and gave a full refund for him .
Find a breeder that answerers all your questions and is up front about the price good breeders have nothing to hide and should feel proud to tell anyone about the breeding of the parents and the puppies this includes all the health questions.
Breeders not answering all your questions or cannot be bothered and take offence bring up a red flag for me

 

[Ingrid H]

I only recognized one of those kennel names, so I don't understand why you are getting the run-around.

 

[Ataro]

Well 4 of those kennels aren't having more litters until the end of next year or later, a couple of them seemed money hungry and were eager to sell me "TOP TOP QUALITY PUPPIES" (sic), and a bunch haven't answered but then it is the weekend, so perhaps they'll get back to me Monday. There must still be hope yet!

 

[Ingrid H]

Maybe you will have better luck once you have moved to Germany. Then you will be able to call the kennels up and say you'll be over to talk next weekend. A face-to-face meeting is so much better than an email.

 

[Ataro]

Okay - I just got another email which is bringing up a WTF flag for me. One of the kennels apparently doesn't have any females themselves - they sell their breeding females as puppies to families, and then "rent them back" to breed more litters, supposedly because they don't want to keep them in kennels. I don't know, but this just seems like brushing off responsibility to me. What do you think?

 

[Ataro]

Maybe you will have better luck once you have moved to Germany. Then you will be able to call the kennels up and say you'll be over to talk next weekend. A face-to-face meeting is so much better than an email.

I do plan to meet up with them and their dogs, but I'm at the point where there are just too many. Hopefully by the time I get to Germany I'll have narrowed it down to just a handful.

 

[Quee]

I'd follow my gut instincts if I were you Ataro. I think there's always a good match out there waiting for you when you really want something, and you may have to weed through a lot of questionable breeders to get to the dog you're meant to have. Just like you've put a lot of time and energy into reseraching the kind of Dobe you're looking for, unfortunately you're also going to have to put a lot of time and energy into weeding out the riff raff breeders to find one you are comfortable with and who has what you're looking for.

If it were me, with such an important purchase I wouldn't waste time with anyone who didn't answer my questi0ns sufficiently. Don't waste time with them - move on to those who do answer your questions appropriately and who you are comfortable with - and if you feel at any way uncomfortable or unsure, walk away - your Dobe is out there somewhere.

 

[Liberty & Justice]

Now that I think about it, it does make sense if they think asking questions equals high maintenance buyer. Although, shouldn't they be happy to talk prices then?

You'd think but the price is probably budgeted in their minds. I've yet to even negotiate about a dog's pricing and I do that for a living............ So I am sure it's probably a mix of people thinking either " Why's he asking all these questions " as if they go on the defensive thinking your investigating. If you are coming off like an investigator I probably wouldn't be the most informative either. High maintenance buyers are a sellers worst nightmare, and maybe, just maybe the breeders you've called have already experienced some form of this type of buyer and refuse to really put much into it.


I'd keep looking, you'd want a breeder to answer your questions. I know mine ( Both times ) have answered all my questions even after a year of picking up the dog. For Example Justice's breeder has done a perfect job, continues to answer my questions even after Justice is going on 2 now. She even would help me with ear posting's months after pick up. I could call anytime, email's were answered timely, etc........ But yet the breeder world called her a bad breeder and had numerous nasty things to say about her online, yet, My dog is perfect, handsome, healthy, exceptionally friendly, and most well poised, well behaved Dobe I've met as to date. My point, don't listen to all the hype when certain forum's point out a not so good breeder, most of them are either jealous, or it's just plain gossip B.S....... I know I proved many, many people wrong with my boy now.

Good luck and congrats on doing the research prior.

 

[Ataro]

I've definitely learnt to take things with a grain of salt after conversations with certain people on the topic of getting a quality Euro dobe. I guess it's also different in that there's a lot more weeding to be done because of the popularity of the Dobermann in Europe compared to other places.

 

[Ingrid H]

Okay - I just got another email which is bringing up a WTF flag for me. One of the kennels apparently doesn't have any females themselves - they sell their breeding females as puppies to families, and then "rent them back" to breed more litters, supposedly because they don't want to keep them in kennels. I don't know, but this just seems like brushing off responsibility to me. What do you think?

I think it's a perfectly sensible way to go in a breeding program. Dobermans thrive in a home setting. It must make good breeders sad when they see spayed bitches mature into girls they would love to have had back in their programs. Sometimes breeders in the USA sell on breeding contracts or co-own with buyers. Sometimes they just flat out "rent" bitches. There's nothing wrong with it as long as the dogs are being looked after well.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Ataro - I have posted my thoughts on this before especailly when we are asked hard questions. As a breeder it is my responsiblity to answer any and all questions up front and open. When I get down the road I don't want any WHY didn't you tell me???

I have always believed that you can't make a good decision without the correct answers. So if I am asked a question here or in private, unlike some, I answer it. I feel you have every right to ask questions and a breeder should answer them. If they would not answer I would worry what are they hiding. I would not want to do business with someone I did not trust and answering those questions is critical.

Based on what you posted I don't see any questions that should be avoided. They were pretty standard questions and would indicate to me you were serious and you wanted to do your research. All good points.

No breeder is perfect and so you have to understand that also. Mistakes happen but at least stand up and face the music don't try to duck and dance around it.

I will add this - some of the attitudes and the fear of PETA/HSUS informants has made us all a little gun shy until we get to know you.

I have turned away more than one person who thought puppies were a barganing tool. I do find that an insult when we are speaking about a loving, living breathing puppy who a lot of time and planning has gone into. After all we are not selling out of the back of a pick up at Wal Mart.

As far as no females themselves that is how Kimbertal does it and it sure got them into a lot of trouble. You would be surprised how many breeders to skirt it sell their bitches on co-ownership with a litter back guarantee and they are on the papers as co-breeder. That way they feel they can honestly claim they did not have but one or two litters - I see nothing wrong with it if it was done right.

My biggest problem kimbertal is that I have seen puppies they sold as show quality and at 4 months I could tell they were at best medium to low pet quality. If you sell a puppy as show quality there should at least be a chance for the puppy to turn out. That is why I feel it is important for a breeder to be involved in training and showing to have a better chance of knowing what they are looking at.

 

[Ataro]

I think it's a perfectly sensible way to go in a breeding program. Dobermans thrive in a home setting. It must make good breeders sad when they see spayed bitches mature into girls they would love to have had back in their programs. Sometimes breeders in the USA sell on breeding contracts or co-own with buyers. Sometimes they just flat out "rent" bitches. There's nothing wrong with it as long as the dogs are being looked after well.

The thing is that it's not on a co-ownership contract, the "breeders" don't have any breeding dogs of their own at all, not even a website. They just pay the owners of the bitch to get her back to breed her, then they don't even look after the puppies themselves, to me that just is not right.

 

[JanS]

I don't have much to add to this, but I do have to say good for you for asking the questions both to the potential breeders and here since it's educational for all of us, and it's essential for you to get the answers you need in search of just the puppy you're looking for. It's your right....

Like Suzan said, I'd be happy to answer those questions if I was a breeder and would have nothing to hide, so it would be a really good sign to me that the potential buyer wants to know these things.
I have heard of quite a few co-ownership things for the bitches here in the states and "if" it's done with the right intentions it probably is better circumstances for the female so she can always live in a home environment and the pups be raised there as well, rather than them being in a kennel environment for large breeders who have very limited time to do one on one work with them.
I know the breeder we got Boris from (not a good breeder for the record) would breed her bitches out in the kennels and then rehome them when she retired them at about 5 years old, so that had to be a big change for a Doberman knowing how loyal they are to their owners and environments.

 

[Judith]

After Breeding Bella I would never ever buy a bitch with a contract to say she has to have a litter, breeding puppies is much more than some or most people with integrity can handle , I have never heard of it in the UK but it may happen.

 

[Ataro]

Honestly, with a litter contract it just seems to me that the breeders want all the joys and fame of breeding but don't want to do the work themselves. I second that Judith, I wouldn't ever buy a bitch on a breeding contract - I can't imagine sending my dog off to breed like its her duty with no control over it whatsoever, and then be expected to raise the litter?!