Question about heat and bleeding

[JanS]

Very helpful info Dobebug! Della is our first girl in ages, so I wasn't sure what should be normal and what shouldn't, aside from trying to remember things from years ago, so it's nice to have some general guidelines.

 

[dobebug]

My male, Hercules, is Vwd positive. Your vet will probably send the test out to be done. I don't really know what being in heat has to do with it because Herc's a boy. His white count is like 11 which is the lowest my vet has ever seen.

Hey MLR,

Was the test that said that Hercules was vWD positive the genetic test by VetGen? If it was determined by an Elisa Assay--which is what it sounds like that test is only regarded as accurate at the far ends of the scale--very low amounts of vWD factor (which is what it measures) would indicate an affected dog (that is a dog with two copies of the vWD gene) Very high numbers would indicated a clear dog (no copies of the defective vWD gene). Trying to get a reading on a bitch in season with an Elisa assay is likely to be inaccurate because the hormones involved with the heat cycle itself tend to change the amount of factor in the blood.

I know of no vWD test that involves measurement of a white cell count. Are you sure that the vet didn't say that his vWD factor count was 11? That makes a lot more sense.

He has the ability to clot but not the starting factor. They have to be six months old or older for the test to be reliable.

Ummmm--I guess that's sort of an explanation of how vWD factor works to make platelets stick together to form clots. That has to have been an Elisa assay test--and even after 6 months they are often suspect when it comes to accuracy. I know at least two people who had three Elisa assay's run on dogs of theirs and had each one come back with different results--this was just before the gene test was available--so they could take their pick. Both dogs turned out later when gene tested to be carriers and unfortunately it's that whole big mid section that is so iffy--carriers are as likely to test low and be called affected dogs as they are to test high and be called clear.

None of this really matters unless you were planning on breeding her. Then you'd want a more specific test done to see if she is a carrier or affected. It sounds like she's affected if the vets worried about the length of time she's bled during her heat cycle. Did she bleed a lot when they did her ears? That's a pretty good indicator right there.

This bitch can't be affected if her parents vWD status was correct. One was clear and the other a carrier--the only genetic possiblities are clear or carrier for her. But there are many other things that can cause a dog to bleed. Puppies almost never have problems with bleeding unduely from ear crops (or even earlier from docks or dew claw removals). That doesn't work as a test--even known affected dogs who later turn out to be clinical (that is they don't clot properly--most Dobes even if affected do not have problems clotting) rarely have bleeding problems when cropped. There are some explanations as to why but the bottom line is that it's rare for even an affected do to have unusual bleeding or failure to clot when cropped.

There will be certain meds she can't have like aspirin and pepto. You're vet will give you a list. Cuts will take a long time to heal and surgeries, well, let's just cross that bridge when you get the test results back. I'm just more careful with Herc. Deep wounds would present a bigger problem. Things like getting hit by a car or a dog fight.

For the record you really shouldn't be giving dogs aspirin without specific directions from your vet. The active ingredient in aspirin is sodium acetyl salicylate and one of it's side effects is to thin the blood. Dogs typically have more reactions to aspirin than people do and it's basically contraindicated although still used under some circumstances. PeptoBismol has a related salicylate in it and should not be given to dogs for the same reason. It should definitely not be given to a dog who is know to be a clinically affected vWD dog.

Thankfully dobes are such velcro dogs that they usually don't get to far away from us as they age to worry about things like that.

Sorry to hear about Hercules--it's not much comfort to know that most Dobes, even if they are vWD affected aren't clinical and never have problems with bleeding and bruising but for the owner of a clinically affected vWD dog it gives a whole new meaning to breeding away from one of the few problems for which there is a genetic test.

 

[MLR]

I'm not sure what tests were done. I know there was a CBC and that they sent out some blood to an out of state lab. Herc's always had bleeding problems. The first time It happened was when he was a puppy and I accidentally clipped into the quick when I was doing his nails. He shot blood across the room. The vet who cropped his ears remarked that I might want to have him tested because they had a hard time stopping him form bleeding during that surgery. He's also the one who told me the test wouldn't be reliable before the age of six months. That's all I know. Based on all of that I had him neutered. So I haven't gotten into the genetics of it all. I just know that every time he's had the simplest of cuts it's taken forever to heal. He's still healing form a little cyst removal that he had done two months ago. This was right above the crook of his elbow and near the surface. I generalized with the meds but know there's a whole list Herc can't have, including ace inhibitors, whenever he has to have surgery. I call the vet to make sure before I give him anything. You sound very knowledgeable about all this. I know what I know about it from living with it. This is my second dog with Vwd; the first was a dobe/Sheppard mix. It isn't about breeding for me, but I agree with you, this should be bred away form. It never ceases to amaze me whenever I look at Herc, at how beautiful and big and strong looking he is on the outside, to know that he's so fragile on the inside.

 

[Loomis]

The vet took blood from Skoll and had it frozen and sent out to a lab so I assume thats the Elisa Assay test. The vet said the heat horomones would not interfere. What makes the vetgen test better? Im not sure if I understand? Isnt it just to show whether or not the disese is in their genes? Woudlnt I already know that because I know the dam is a carrier and the sire is clear?
I would be pretty surprised if she has positive vWD actually. Her ears healed without any bleeding issues. She gets scratched up by my cat all the time and has clotted quickly and normally. Also, I nicked her quick one time during nail trimming and the bleeding stopped pretty easily. I guess Im just really curious to know whether shes clear or a carrier at this point. We are considering breeding her, but like I said earlier, it very much depends on how she turns out as an adult. I want some titles on her prior to breeding as well.

 

[dobebug]

The vet took blood from Skoll and had it frozen and sent out to a lab so I assume thats the Elisa Assay test. The vet said the heat horomones would not interfere. What makes the vetgen test better? Im not sure if I understand? Isnt it just to show whether or not the disese is in their genes? Woudlnt I already know that because I know the dam is a carrier and the sire is clear?
I would be pretty surprised if she has positive vWD actually. Her ears healed without any bleeding issues. She gets scratched up by my cat all the time and has clotted quickly and normally. Also, I nicked her quick one time during nail trimming and the bleeding stopped pretty easily. I guess Im just really curious to know whether shes clear or a carrier at this point. We are considering breeding her, but like I said earlier, it very much depends on how she turns out as an adult. I want some titles on her prior to breeding as well.

Hi again,

The VetGen test is an actual genetic test for vWD. It will tell you if the dog is affected (two copies of the defective gene) a carrier (one copy of the defective gene), or clear (no copies of the affected gene).

An Elisa assay is a blood test which checks for the amount vWD factor (the actual chemical which initiates the beginning step of the clotting cascade--causes the platelets to stick together to form the initial soft clot).

I'm assuming that the test that your vet ran, where they drew blood, froze it and sent it to a lab was the Elisa assay. Unfortunately the Elisa assay is not accurate as far was determining what the genetic status is. The amount of vWD factor in the blood can be affected by any number of things--from being in season (and if your vet said that would not affect the test results there is a lot of information out there that says he's is not correct about that), elevated temperatures can also affect the results. You might ask the vet is the test was actually an Elisa assay to determine what the level of the vWD factor was. But the Elisa assay will not, by itself give you an accurate determination of the genetic status. Only a gene test will do that.

You would know from the status of her parents that she couldn't be affected. In order to be affected a puppy has to have gotten one defective gene from each parent. The clear parent has no defective genes. The carrier parent has only one defective gene--it's possible for her to be only clear or carrier. She could not be affected.

The main reason you might want to know the vWD status is that if you are breeding a clear bitch you have a large number of options when choosing a sire for the puppies. If she is clear you can breed her to an affected dog if you want and know that you are going to have carrier puppies. If she is clear she will not produce any affected puppies no matter the status of the sire. If she was bred to a carrier male she could produce both clear or carrier puppies. Bred to a clear dog she would only produce clear puppies.

If she is a carrier (which, again, the Elisa assay will NOT tell you) you would ideally only want to breed her to a clear dog since then she would only produce clear or carrier puppies. Breeding to a carrier dog offers the possiblity that she might produce affected puppies. If the sire is affected and she is a carrier she will produce only affected or carrier puppies.

So many affected dogs have no clinical symptoms that just the fact that bleeding stops quickly isn't really a good test.

If you do decide to breed her later it would be a good idea to do the gene test through VetGen.

 

[JstLovesErnie]

Ziva had her first season Nov 4 - Nov 26. Very easy season for a first one. Generally the first season is heavy - by the time they should be bred - normally 10 days from the time you notice the first discharge - it becomes a pinkish color.

Jan - Ziva had a kind of "inny" on her who-ha too... I think her going into season helped it. I had the GREATEST chasity belts ever... she never went outside without one of the neutered boys - especially Bodacious. They won't permit another dog on their property!! LOL

 

[Apollo]

gezzzzzzzzzzz with all the reading about head and bleeding, i'm not sure if i want a female LMAO
nawwwwwwwwwwwwww i think i can handle it and still want my black little girl

 

[Loomis]

Hi again,

The VetGen test is an actual genetic test for vWD. It will tell you if the dog is affected (two copies of the defective gene) a carrier (one copy of the defective gene), or clear (no copies of the affected gene).

An Elisa assay is a blood test which checks for the amount vWD factor (the actual chemical which initiates the beginning step of the clotting cascade--causes the platelets to stick together to form the initial soft clot).

I'm assuming that the test that your vet ran, where they drew blood, froze it and sent it to a lab was the Elisa assay. Unfortunately the Elisa assay is not accurate as far was determining what the genetic status is. The amount of vWD factor in the blood can be affected by any number of things--from being in season (and if your vet said that would not affect the test results there is a lot of information out there that says he's is not correct about that), elevated temperatures can also affect the results. You might ask the vet is the test was actually an Elisa assay to determine what the level of the vWD factor was. But the Elisa assay will not, by itself give you an accurate determination of the genetic status. Only a gene test will do that.

You would know from the status of her parents that she couldn't be affected. In order to be affected a puppy has to have gotten one defective gene from each parent. The clear parent has no defective genes. The carrier parent has only one defective gene--it's possible for her to be only clear or carrier. She could not be affected.

The main reason you might want to know the vWD status is that if you are breeding a clear bitch you have a large number of options when choosing a sire for the puppies. If she is clear you can breed her to an affected dog if you want and know that you are going to have carrier puppies. If she is clear she will not produce any affected puppies no matter the status of the sire. If she was bred to a carrier male she could produce both clear or carrier puppies. Bred to a clear dog she would only produce clear puppies.

If she is a carrier (which, again, the Elisa assay will NOT tell you) you would ideally only want to breed her to a clear dog since then she would only produce clear or carrier puppies. Breeding to a carrier dog offers the possiblity that she might produce affected puppies. If the sire is affected and she is a carrier she will produce only affected or carrier puppies.

So many affected dogs have no clinical symptoms that just the fact that bleeding stops quickly isn't really a good test.

If you do decide to breed her later it would be a good idea to do the gene test through VetGen.

Thanks a lot for the info. My vet didnt have a lot of information for me as far as the results of the test went so she wanted to do it again in about a month. Do I do a vetgen test through my vet? or do I do it myself?

 

[JanS]

Jan - Ziva had a kind of "inny" on her who-ha too... I think her going into season helped it. I had the GREATEST chasity belts ever... she never went outside without one of the neutered boys - especially Bodacious. They won't permit another dog on their property!! LOL

LOL about the chastity belt hrd... That should certainly do it.
I'm glad the heat seemed to help Ziva too. With Della I'm totally relieved since it seems to have worked. :stars: I still need to post those before, during and after pics in the Inverted vulva thread for reference...

 

[JstLovesErnie]

I'm still playing with the idea of breeding. I found a German import - black - if you can believe this - 10 miles down the road! Ken is thinking of working her in (NAVHDA)North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association this summer. The fellow that has the German Import will help him work with her to pass her test. So I am thrilled her heat season was such an easy one - the first ones are usually the hardest for them....

 

[MLR]

I can just picture the fool dog coming onto your property with Bo at Ziva's side and him running for cover after he discovers his mistake, Jst.

 

[JanS]

I'm still playing with the idea of breeding. I found a German import - black - if you can believe this - 10 miles down the road! Ken is thinking of working her in (NAVHDA)North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association this summer. The fellow that has the German Import will help him work with her to pass her test. So I am thrilled her heat season was such an easy one - the first ones are usually the hardest for them....

Wow, what a small world, huh? She's a little beauty and if the sire is anywhere near as nice you should have a beautiful litter! I know you know what you're doing so it will be sooo exciting to hear what happens.

 

[dobebug]

Thanks a lot for the info. My vet didnt have a lot of information for me as far as the results of the test went so she wanted to do it again in about a month. Do I do a vetgen test through my vet? or do I do it myself?

Go to VetGen's website. It is an entirely uncomplicated test that you can easily do yourself. It involves getting some cells from the mucosal area inside the mouth (at the cheek)--the kit that VetGen provides is two or three swabs to do that with and they give you instructions for doing it.

The price for a gene test is $140 but if you can find a group who is doing a clinic the price drops to $99. VetGen will tell you who is doing clinics for Dobes for vWD (they offer other tests beside vWD) at this time but I believe the the DPCA extended the dates of the clinic they offered at the Doberman National in October and are still offering a $99.

The Elissa assay runs close to a $100 in my neck of the woods--unless there is something else on the test that your vet wants to see the results of I'd be asking what exactly she is looking for. vWD factor can vary so much from one test to another that I ask for same day checks to determine if clotting time is normal on any dog of mine who is having surgery rather than do an Elissa assay. These are simple and immediate and are more informative that an Elissa assay which is days out of date by the time the vet gets the results back.

And you should go and read the information on the VetGen site on vWD in Dobermans. The information includes exactly the differences between an Elissa assay and a genetic test and you'll find it interesting I think. You might also print it out and give it your vet. Not all vets are as educated as they might be on some of the things that go on with specific breeds of dogs. There are three main types of vWD and Dobermans have the least severe test and I something think that some vets only remember the information about vWD in Scottish Terriers where it is essentially a lethal situation. Scotties have Type 3 and Dobermans have Type 1.

 

[JanS]

VetGen will tell you who is doing clinics for Dobes for vWD (they offer other tests beside vWD) at this time but I believe the the DPCA extended the dates of the clinic they offered at the Doberman National in October and are still offering a $99.

Thank you for the info Dobebug! I've been sort of looking for a clinic like that before getting Della's done, so this is perfect!

Here's the DPCA link to the page if anyone else is interested. I hope they still have enough participants...
DPCA Latest News » Blog Archive » VetGen vWD Clinic

 

[JstLovesErnie]

Wow, what a small world, huh? She's a little beauty and if the sire is anywhere near as nice you should have a beautiful litter! I know you know what you're doing so it will be sooo exciting to hear what happens.

I have plenty of time to decide - I'm still going back and forth about having a litter. This guy's bloodlines are long lived too - his male is 14 and still hunting and breeding! Ziva is just a hellacious little hunter too! She has a better nose than Chipper does - we have had 4 partridge in the yard this winter and flushes them continually. She "sneaks" in... I love watching her creep... lol
Smart - Ernie just hates playing with her. He chases her and then she turns and runs behind him.... he takes off running and she turns and runs behind him again... I've never seen anything like it!
She's been extremely healthy - but to me she seems small - 53 pounds.?? But then, on most of the forums they say their dogs weight and it's in the 50 to 60 pound range... so I don't know... I need better reasons than these to breed her...lol

 

[JanS]

Well, I contacted the contact person right after I posted here and she got back to me within a half an hour - pretty impressive! She said December has been slow, but they're going to bunch December into January so I have my payment ready to go tomorrow.

---------- Post added at 08:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 PM ----------

Ziva is just a hellacious little hunter too! She has a better nose than Chipper does - we have had 4 partridge in the yard this winter and flushes them continually. She "sneaks" in... I love watching her creep... lol
Smart - Ernie just hates playing with her. He chases her and then she turns and runs behind him.... he takes off running and she turns and runs behind him again... I've never seen anything like it!
She's been extremely healthy - but to me she seems small - 53 pounds.?? But then, on most of the forums they say their dogs weight and it's in the 50 to 60 pound range... so I don't know... I need better reasons than these to breed her...lol

Speaking of Ziva, I haven't seen any updated pics of her lately. Hint, hint...
I think our GSP was about 65#, but then again males are bigger. I have a feeling she'll still probably put a few on too as she finishes maturing, so I bet she's right in there....
I know you know what you're doing when it comes to breeding, so I look forward to seeing which direction you go.

 

[JstLovesErnie]

Speaking of Ziva, I haven't seen any updated pics of her lately. Hint, hint

Identity crisis - she thinks shes a cat... lmao

She was pouncing... lol

She just knows Chipper has something... lol

First driving lesson....

At Agate Beach...

We call her the midget - Chipper is a 80 pound dog - Ernie is 120 - Bodacious is 176.....

so 50 pounds seems little to me... lol

Bodacious the baby sitter for Ziva... lol

 

[Loomis]

Thank you for the info Dobebug! I've been sort of looking for a clinic like that before getting Della's done, so this is perfect!

Here's the DPCA link to the page if anyone else is interested. I hope they still have enough participants...
DPCA Latest News » Blog Archive » VetGen vWD Clinic

Thanks Dobebug and JanS! Really appreciate the info!


I think Ill order up a vetgen next paycheque. Gonna look for a clinic now.

 

[JanS]

I think Ill order up a vetgen next paycheque. Gonna look for a clinic now.

The link I posted above will go through January, so you should be able to go right there to order it (my check is going in the mail today). It saves you $40 so it's a great time to do it.

Wow jst, Ziva is gorgeous! She's only about a month older than Della right? Won't be long before they're already a year old - hard to believe....