Future Of American Bred Dobermans

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

WDK Spring Trial Results are in, and the Dobermans did well...

WDK Spring Trial Results:
BH (all Passed)
Polina von Lotta (GSD)
Texas Midnight Storm (Dobe)
Masaya's Baron Wrecks to Riches (Dobe)
Black Jak Phalcon (turv)
Masaya's Darkness Falls (Dobe)

IPO 1
Chaney von Prufenpuden (GSD) 70-91-89
Polina von Lotta (GSD) 90-87-87 (High IPO1)
Dayonna vom Beisetal (GSD) 85-74-88

APr 2
Csabre V Danzig (Dobe) 80-80

IPO 2
Yli vom Fleischerheim (GSD) 74-84-87 (High IPO 2)
Yuriah vom Drache Feld (GSD) 84-71-80

IPO 3
Tiara vom Mittelwest (GSD) 80-88-85
Sasha vom Drache Feld (GSD) 72-80-81
Masaya's Black Sabbath (Dobe) 97-93-92 (HIT, High IPO3, High Tracking, High Obedience, High Protection)

AD
Polina von Lotta (GSD)
Elle von Hans Lucht (GSD)
Titan's Summer Lightning Strikes Twice (Dobe)
Masaya's Darkness Falls (Dobe)
Polina von Lotta (GSD)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=787473047940703&id=212979935390020&fref=nf

 

[DocReverto]

She has done quite a bit with Silence I believe Gel. Very nice example of a true working Doberman.

 

[Dobs4ever]

If you prefer D4E I will call you so.
This post was completely inappropriate and does no good for this thread or the education associated with it. Enough.

Actually you can forget addressing me at all and just stick to the subject. As I stated it is not about me or or how you feel about what I believe. Stick to the subject at hand and leave me out of your personal discussion. I will discuss issues and state how I see them as can you. It is a discussion about the future of the doberman - we have different views live with it.

Meanwhile the AR propaganda machine is hard at work putting us all at odd with each other and chugging along making progress at every turn as we bicker amongst ourselves......

 

[DocReverto]

Actually you can forget addressing me at all and just stick to the subject. As I stated it is not about me or or how you feel about what I believe. Stick to the subject at hand and leave me out of your personal discussion. I will discuss issues and state how I see them as can you. It is a discussion about the future of the doberman - we have different views live with it.

Just please stop. We have moved on. Please do not ruin this thread.

 

[Rits]

There are far and few protection breeds to choose from... so that is why I personally chose the Doberman for being the only true personal protection breed and they are in my opinion the most desirable to look at.

I don't think it's so true that the demand for a working Dobe isn't there. I do think it's true that there are many working people that have wanted a Dobe, tried one, and did not like the results of today's Dobe so they moved to another breed or even as simple as witnessing working dobes of today (what we have bred away from as conformation became more important) and did not like what they saw and stuck with their breed.

Those with the other working breeds here in NA have stuck with them, continued to shape them into something that would be able to protect but was also trainable and capable of being in the public eye. They are not perfect, not by a long shot. However, no one wants a dog that has bad nerves in dog sports. Many of these sports there are bystanders and that is not what you want to represent, especially not here in NA where many people cry wolf to the gov. But for me, those breeds just don't compare to the beauty of the Doberman.

There really isn't a need for sighthounds to chase game, but why do we continue to keep that aspect of that breed? Because tradition...because that is what makes a sighthound a sighthound and because we can modernize the concept to todays methods yet still keep that drive alive. Also, you have to admit, it's more than likely dang fun for the dog and owner taking part in a sport that their breed was bred to do.

I see more and more newbies taking part in dog sports. They learn that it can be fun to train your dog! Dog sports are becoming more available for a novice to take part in. That does not mean the competition is not there for more serious competitors, but some of these clubs are realizing that there is a market for newbies and they are opening up to them...making it easy to jump in to. Whether the clubs and organizations do it for money, to educate or both...this is a good thing! And we all know that many times, once you start competing, you are often bitten by the bug.

Reaching out to these newbies helps us educate them in their selection of breeds. To make the right choices in breeds that fit their life or to become more involved with their breed they chose and learn how to train their dog. Owners should take responsibility in what dog they purchase, what life they bring under their care. This isn't a sportscar where it's perfectly okay to simply leave parked in the garage, this is a living and breathing thing with needs and wants in order to care for.



I think our viewpoint needs to change that it's impossible to have a total dog. We need to touch back with reality and not make 155 different couch potato breeds that all look different but pretty much do the same. As dog sports become more easily available, I think the desire to have a dog with a desire to work for you, will go up. Even if that breed's original purpose changes, please for the love of god, let us not breed out completely that desire to work. I have two rescue dogs, one a mutt and one a purebred with unknown parents. One that just LOVES to work for me and with me...and the other has almost zero drive and is excellent at just existing but is almost (almost) a nightmare in comparison to the other to try and actually TRAIN to do something because she has that zero want to do it. I do not want this for our breed or even other "active" breeds.

I want to understand why is it not possible to have a total dog...? You focus too much on one thing, sure enough you miss out on the other. Focusing on conformation too much you lose the working side and focusing too much on the working side you lose the conformation. I am curious how many working dogs break down because they are "ugly". I'm not saying they are and I'm not saying they aren't ugly...that would not be my choice of words but I do agree some are definitely not as "pretty" as a conformation dog. But I'd personally would be really interested in the information of working dogs that are not able to perform because of their undesirable looking conformation.

I'll admit (and a little bit to my displeasure) that the doberman is probably going to change but should it change so much that we breed for a golden retriever in a doberman suit just for the purpose that there are ignorant people? Or should we change our viewpoint... continue and pushing for ways to educate and promote proper dog ownership and proper ownership of a Doberman. We will never change the fact that there are ignorant people but we can make that number smaller. Technology today certainly helps this, and we've even touched base on this topic not too long ago.

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

I personally feel that the Imports are having, and are going to continue to have, a major impact on the American Doberman.
I know several breeders that have breeding programs along this line. One that I know of is showing her Bitch and doing very well. At first her Euro bloodline was frowned upon, but now she is on her way to finishing her. The Amer-Euro cross will be one future of the modern Doberman, and most of these have a strong working drive as well. This is what many people that I personally know feel will be the trend towards a well rounded Doberman - and I fully agree with them. It is the best of both worlds - but you can continue to have the polarities as well if that is your desire.

 

[DocReverto]

I personally feel that the Imports are having, and are going to continue to have, a major impact on the American Doberman.
I know several breeders that have breeding programs along this line. One that I know of is showing her Bitch and doing very well. At first her Euro bloodline was frowned upon, but now she is on her way to finishing her. The Amer-Euro cross will be one future of the modern Doberman, and most of these have a strong working drive as well. This is what many people that I personally know feel will be the trend towards a well rounded Doberman - and I fully agree with them. It is the best of both worlds - but you can continue to have the polarities as well if that is your desire.

I don't doubt that eventually we are a mix of ameuro. I can't imagine it would take long either.

I personally think outcrossing to European dogs is an excellent concept. When applied correctly, and would be a good option to bring back some temperament, heads, and bone.

 

[DocReverto]

Although I will say too much of one thing is not a good thing. I won't say names but one kennel has devoted an extreme amount of time outcrossing to euro stuff and they are left with a poor result of a nice euro Doberman being complimented with all the wrong features. Although I suppose that is breeding. You cross the t's dot the I's and then hope for the best.

 

[Rits]

Seriously could anyone imagine the pressure our children would feel if we put them under the same microscope as we do our dogs and their breeders? Its quite comical actually. People dont breed the total doberman because its an impossible standard.. Imagine expecting our own kids to grow up be doctors, get married to only the high society with wealth and brains and then force them to be health tested to determine if said couple should even have a family then if all that checks out they must hold a superbowl ring or some other well recognized championship.. Then and only then if all checks out your kids can get married and raise their own family.. isnt that what we are asking of breeders and their dogs all over the world?

I respectfully disagree on comparing dogs with humans in the aspect of breeding. Of course we do not do those things with humans as that would be morally incorrect. Everyone in society plays a role to whatever their strengths and weakness may be. Dogs should not and aren not on the same platform as humans, but that is how the animal rights activists think. Dogs are dogs. We're the ones that breed them and we are the ones responsible for their health, conformation, and temperament. All we should ask of ourselves is to try and breed a balanced dog.

The total dog does not have to be perfect. No dog is perfect! I don't understand where people get the idea the dog has to be perfect, that is unrealistic. People breed for health, conformation, temperament ... all of these things they breed for is to produce a balanced dog. It's all about balance, that is all we should ask. If everyone were to remove a dog completely from the gene pool because it didn't get the highest of titles there is, then you are doing your breed a disservice by limiting the gene pool and more than likely running into issues of losing something and having an unbalanced breed. And such results are apparent in many breeds out there.

I will agree with you that the Doberman world seems to be the most competitive compared to other breeds when it comes to ideas and breeders and I do hope that will change and that we can meet somewhere in the middle.

 

[FredC]

Well I didn't mean to compare dogs and children in a literal sense. I just find it funny that people expect more from a breeder then themselves.

 

[DocReverto]

As far as conformation being important in working sports I'll bring up one thing.

Take a look at any close horse race. They are true working animals, and the horse with the better conformation wins. One single smidge of overangulation can cost the horse the race.

Now IPO sports definelty don't require this intrinsic level of conformation. But conformation is important. I don't want a dog that looks like a Rottweiler cross, and I can see that in some of our working dogs.

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

"People breed for health, conformation, temperament ... all of these things they breed for is to produce a balanced dog."

Yes, I fully agree with this statement. But it seems there are differing opinions on just what constitutes health, conformation and temperament. As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, just what definitions do we apply to these terms?

 

[Dobs4ever]

At it stands right now as long as we have a stronger working presence in Europe we have the ability to keep drives and correct temperament alive. It is not uncommon over there for every little hamlet to have a working dog sport club. So availability is a big part of it.

If we go back to the spilt - DPCA lost a huge voting block and imho made the wrong decision. Because it split the doberman fancy into to two opposing groups with a different vision. Conformation only cares about conformation. I personally do not believe beauty alone ever equates to a good dog for a working breed. For example the GSD - just look at how crippled the show ring has brought them to even against their own standard. How do breeders get so far off base???

We must have breeders who understand this dog and training it. Conformation folks don't even think you can teach a dog to sit til after it gets it championship. When I hear that I always ask why is the dog dumb??? Those who are more versatile understand the dog can learn to do it all. No breed can adapt and step up to the plate like a Doberman. And I have had people bring me dogs to train that had zero drive - sadly they were dobermans. I ask them when you get no response what do you think you can accomplish in training???? They have no clue how important drives are to temperament - If you put temperament into a pie and sliced it you would slice the drives - prey - pack - food - toy - fight - defense -

Armin Winkler wrote has a sight with some great articles http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/drives.html Until you sit at the feet of some of the great Euro dog trainers it is very hard to understand the depth of their knowledge about dogs and how to maniupulate and motivate them I always loved going to dinner after working all day and just listen to every word they uttered. We are loosing our great trainers -

But no working breed should ever be separated to far from its origins or the breed is lost. And there are many Dobermans that work and compete in the USA and abroad who are not members of UDC so even that assumption is way off.

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

As far as conformation being important in working sports I'll bring up one thing.....
Now IPO sports definelty don't require this intrinsic level of conformation. But conformation is important. I don't want a dog that looks like a Rottweiler cross, and I can see that in some of our working dogs.

I personally know this man, and his IPO3 dog, Deacon, who just passed on very recently. He was no Rottweiler, and he had a great career in IPO. Now he is training one of his pups in the sport, and these dogs are sleek and very Doberman.
I went to his club this last Saturday with my pups to meet and greet, and see if I want to begin training for IPO, or even just one of the three categories. Very nice and helpful people there, willing to mentor us because of their love for the breed. They have very high standards as well, and in their breeding programs as well. All the Dobe's there looked like Dobermans, but yes, somewhat different than yours. A running back is not built like a wide receiver, but they are both are good representatives of football. They are into working Dobermans, and looks are not what they breed for, but you still get a great Doberman to raise if you can even get one of these dogs. They sell them before they are born, and the waiting list is very long, and you must prove yourself to them before you can even get on the list. People do buy these dogs, but not en mass.

 

[Rits]

I think every one of the posts in this thread have been very thought provoking. I could never read such a vast amount of knowledge for this breed, that many of you are posting here in a respectful manner, anywhere else. I just had to say it, thank you!

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

Agreed! I liked almost every post. Great discussion going on here.

 

[GennyB]

I personally know this man, and his IPO3 dog, Deacon, who just passed.

A lot of us know Larry and were very sorry to hear of Deacon's passing.
My son now owns Kye's GiGi Jumped the Gun and I have to send Larry's wife updates on the girl.

 

[DocReverto]

I personally know this man, and his IPO3 dog, Deacon, who just passed on very recently. He was no Rottweiler, and he had a great career in IPO. Now he is training one of his pups in the sport, and these dogs are sleek and very Doberman.
I went to his club this last Saturday with my pups to meet and greet, and see if I want to begin training for IPO, or even just one of the three categories. Very nice and helpful people there, willing to mentor us because of their love for the breed. They have very high standards as well, and in their breeding programs as well. All the Dobe's there looked like Dobermans, but yes, somewhat different than yours. A running back is not built like a wide receiver, but they are both are good representatives of football. They are into working Dobermans, and looks are not what they breed for, but you still get a great Doberman to raise if you can even get one of these dogs. They sell them before they are born, and the waiting list is very long, and you must prove yourself to them before you can even get on the list. People do buy these dogs, but not en mass.
View attachment 33334

Deacon was a fantastic dog, and I really like where Larry is going with his program. I expect huge things from him going forward. Although I have yet to meet larry and his dogs I guess I like what I see in photos and on paper. (edit) It seems like the conformation on his dogs has gotten a lot better (although still needing work) and his working titles are consistent.

Im sorry though a lot of us seem to think conformation is just about looks. This is so silly, and is so wrong.
It is much more then looks, it is about what is at the core of the dogs structure, putting the structure together and presenting proper movement as a result of a well put together dog.

Im not sure if the conformation hate came from the DPCA split as a sort of being bitter but so many people misunderstand the sport, and it is incredibly difficult and competitive. Dobermans are one of the most competitive show dogs out there. You think schutzhund is expensive? Try finishing a dog. Without conformation we would end up with some ugly dogs, and while Larrys dog do not even remotely resemble a rottweiler the conformation in his program could be better. Its disappointing especially to see people who previously excelled at the sport talk so bad about it. Larry is one the very very few breeders I would consider a schutzhund dog out of. Talane being the other one. They both seem to understand how to correctly mix euro/na and working/conformation. While they are not perfect in all categories, they get the closest I have seen from the total doberman breeders that choose schutzhund/conformation.

Another silly misconception about conformation that should be cleared up is the argument that we wait to train our dogs until they have finished their CH. Im sorry, but we do train our dogs. I personally chose to wait for dedicated obedience training because I got so tired of watching these working breeders having their dogs heel during movement, and sit for their exam. So we can make that argument, but it is ridiculous, because that concept clearly doesnt work in practice. If you cant train for both while being proficient in both you need to tone down on one, and focus on the other. When I see it successfully done Ill switch my thoughts on this. Maybe its different overseas. I wish i knew more about the programs over there. God I hope so because if i see another working doberman heel during the down and back I may vomit.

I have to say, despite a few deviations this has been the best thread/debate I have read on DCF to date. I definitely agree with Rits.

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

"This whole crap between working breeders and conformation breeders needs to stop."

Agreed! But you made the statement that too many working Dobermans look like a Rottie cross, and I don't see that at all. Why make such a generalization? What do you base that statement on? and it sounds to me like you are against the working Doberman as a whole.

 

[DocReverto]

"This whole crap between working breeders and conformation breeders needs to stop."

Agreed! But you made the statement that too many working Dobermans look like a Rottie cross, and I don't see that at all. Why make such a generalization? What do you base that statement on? and it sounds to me like you are against the working Doberman as a whole.

Wow I am an idiot. I accidentally edited your post and put my reply in, as opposed to quoting you. I dont think I deleted anything, but if I did let me know and I will fix this.

Lets try this again.

Sorry I typed that up on my phone with a bunch of other stuff that went with it, it would have made more sense that way.

The rottweiler statement applies to quite a few working breeders. Ones that especially let conformation fail in order to satisfy their working desires. Im not in this thread to bash any particular breeder so I wont post any names, I would rather put the information out there for all working breeders to see. I am not against the working doberman, im against the misconceived notion that these working dogs are total dobermans. Its just not true. What I am against is making every doberman breeder out thee a total doberman breeder. Supply and demand is not there for these types of dogs as we discussed earlier, and doing so would bottleneck our breed to extinction. Look at the US as it sits right now, blame it on whatever you want but the amount of people that want that type of dog has been demolished. I dont want that type of dog, and I know I am not alone. If you cant see the extremely poor structure in a lot of working dogs you need to broaden your range. If you cant see the poor temperament in a lot of conformation dogs you need to broaden your range.
But to go off of the statement you quoted, do you know why it will always continue to be a consistent argument here in the US? Both sides would need to admit they are wrong, and its laughable to think even a couple breeders would admit that.