Future Of American Bred Dobermans

[FredC]

paintinsthegame your breeder is someone i am proud to call a friend and one of the few i still trust implicably online.. Thats not to say we agree on everything because we certainly dont.. But we can agree to disagree. I dont take her years of experience in any way lightly, however im in the take what you can use and leave the rest kind of person.. (again unless im being personally attacked then all sanity goes out the window) Anyways thats why i hate talking in general when individuals are involved that might take my rants personally. lol try being a breeder and a forum administrator and not have haters simply because i banned them from my playground..

 

[FredC]

My only real and true motivation for joining any club DPCA. UDC, Etc... would be to gain a better understanding of the inner workings of these intricate parts.. Because i know for a fact that although i am pretty vocal in what i dont like about KC's i know its all in reality only a matter of knowing only what ive heard.. So sure joining a club to quantify my opinions would be cool but hardly the right reason.

AKC is way to formal for my taste. I love watching them in the IDC out there with their dogs in sweats.. lol

 

[GennyB]

paintinsthegame your breeder is someone i am proud to call a friend and one of the few i still trust implicably online.. Thats not to say we agree on everything because we certainly dont.. But we can agree to disagree. I dont take her years of experience in any way lightly, however im in the take what you can use and leave the rest kind of person.. (again unless im being personally attacked then all sanity goes out the window) Anyways thats why i hate talking in general when individuals are involved that might take my rants personally. lol try being a breeder and a forum administrator and not have haters simply because i banned them from my playground..

Yup, like I said she will tell you that we had "our times". Bottom line, she was honest, more than willing to help me so agree with her or not, I have to trust her and we both have learned to respect each other and each others opinions.

My only real and true motivation for joining any club DPCA. UDC, Etc... would be to gain a better understanding of the inner workings of these intricate parts.. Because i know for a fact that although i am pretty vocal in what i dont like about KC's i know its all in reality only a matter of knowing only what ive heard.. So sure joining a club to quantify my opinions would be cool but hardly the right reason.

AKC is way to formal for my taste. I love watching them in the IDC out there with their dogs in sweats.. lol

Have to agree here. My dogs and I are sort of working independently right now. Most of the clubs, not all, come with way too much drama for me. Don't need it, won't have it. I just want to enjoy what I do with my dogs.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Ive owned Both and i can say from my own experience that the more driven Euros have a more stable temperament, where i have found NA dobermans to be more on the shy side creating its own set of temperament issues.

That is the problem Von - if you study the numbers which I have for over 20 years less than 30% can even pass a WAE. Conformation does not test temperament - you have to take temperament test for that and one thing good about UDC is it requires TT all along the way and a dog must pass to get a championship. Breeding is a 3 legged stool - without the total picture it is not a solid foundation.

What we really need is a PP trainer that has switched from Dobermans (that worked with true PP dogs from the 60's-70's) to another breed.

We have many of them and I have had the pleasure of attending and working through their seminars with my dogs - Dean Calderon, John Soares, Waine Singleton, Ken White, Godfrey Dildod, Jose Rodrigues,

ALL titles are bought and paid for - just a little something to chew on. Otherwise you would not see so many poorly put together American Champions. Today 3 dogs will get you a point and if no dogs then I can't tell you how often I hear people say lay off the bitch so my dog can get the rollover points. So competition is not what it used to be and if you show enough and then hand pick your judges you are buying your title!!! If there were 15 dogs in a show there would be a lot fewer champions for sure.

I know a few people with Working line dobermans from different kennels and none of them are the crazy dog you are talking about. All this dogs were from respectful kennels and house dog. When people are looking for a SAR therapy agility obedience or dock diving dog the ones looking at working lines are most likely to have a dog good for those events. I seen a few show dogs that had such a bad temperament I would get a rescue over touching them. At less I would have a reason for it. I also find it odd coming form rescue that show breeders seem to think it is looks that people want. I always hear about personality is what people are looking for. The last WEA I when to out of 7 dogs 1 pass. That one dog that pass was almost a fail. I know that dog did train for the WEA and at less 1 other train for it too.

Thanks Txdobe - sad when people have such a small understanding of temperament in a working breed. Temperament is made up of the drives a dog has and how those drives come together to define the temperament. Without drives there is no temperament.

Paint - thank you - I am truly humbled and we have had a long journey that started long before you got Drake. Thank you Von. I appreciate all your kind words. We have shared a lot for sure and gone through more than most.

 

[DocReverto]

Thanks Txdobe - sad when people have such a small understanding of temperament in a working breed. Temperament is made up of the drives a dog has and how those drives come together to define the temperament. Without drives there is no temperament.

Suzan there is a reason Waine doesnt use Dobermans Our breed is no longer suited for it. Thats the hard truth. No one wants it here. Im sorry, I wish it were different for your sake but its not.
Your comments on temperament glorify the issues I take with working breeders classifying their dogs with quality temperament solely by basing it off of drive.

Does anyone care to add on why our parent club the DPCA has shifted from the working side of it? They are the protectors for NA dobermans, and the UDC isnt helping us here. That should be a big red flag for every working breeder out there.

 

[DocReverto]

I'll put it this way.
Who in this thread has ever put an IPO title on a dog?

Iceman is probably it. That should be a pretty good indicator as to how great of a PP breed Dobermans are in NA.

 

[FredC]

I'll put it this way.
Who in this thread has ever put an IPO title on a dog?

Iceman is probably it. That should be a pretty good indicator as to how great of a PP breed Dobermans are in NA.

Thats no indicator this is first and foremost a pet forum.. If we come across a rare member with such serious titles they usually bore of us quite quickly and move on..

 

[DocReverto]

Thats no indicator this is first and foremost a pet forum.. If we come across a rare member with such serious titles they usually bore of us quite quickly and move on..

The point is showing how dead that aspect is in NA. Most of us posting here are from the good old USA, with the only person to title a dog in IPO being from a place where the demand for true working Dobermans is quite high.

Very few pet people, and miniscule amounts of conformation folk want that for our breed anymore.

 

[FredC]

The point is showing how dead that aspect is in NA. Most of us posting here are from the good old USA, with the only person to title a dog in IPO being from a place where the demand for true working Dobermans is quite high.

Very few pet people, and miniscule amounts of conformation folk want that for our breed anymore.

In many of these FCI regulated countries specific titles are required to breed period. That is where the demand comes from..

 

[Doberman Gang]

Suzan there is a reason Waine doesnt use Dobermans Our breed is no longer suited for it. Thats the hard truth. No one wants it here. Im sorry, I wish it were different for your sake but its not.
Your comments on temperament glorify the issues I take with working breeders classifying their dogs with quality temperament solely by basing it off of drive.

Does anyone care to add on why our parent club the DPCA has shifted from the working side of it? They are the protectors for NA dobermans, and the UDC isnt helping us here. That should be a big red flag for every working breeder out there.

Why does the DPCA ask the UDC to hold the fall classic at there National?
IPO is a dog sport not personal protection. It requires hours of dedicated training, so yes there are not many who will dedicate that kind of time and effort to doing it, let alone go and try to get the knowledge it takes to train it. As for Waine he has owned dobermans, shepperds, rotties and mals. He had a doberman about 1 1/2 years ago and was asking me if I was interested in him. That is the 2nd time he had one and asked me about it. You have to remember Waine gets dogs trains them up and sells them kind of like some people buy cars and fix them up to sell. It is called a bussiness. Yes, his preferred breed is a malinois just as some of us prefer dobermans and others the breeds they choose.

The point is showing how dead that aspect is in NA. Most of us posting here are from the good old USA, with the only person to title a dog in IPO being from a place where the demand for true working Dobermans is quite high.

Very few pet people, and miniscule amounts of conformation folk want that for our breed anymore.

Everyone that gets into a dog sport, at one time was a pet person. I personally know many Doberman people with IPO titles and plan on having at least one title on Zeke this year, possibly two if he passes at our trial in three weeks. I like the way you feel you can speak for the majority of pet people and state that is not what they want for our breed anymore. What are you basing this info on, did you take a personal pole across NA? Those miniscule amount of conformation folk who have AKC Ch and IPO titles have some real dogs too, not showy couch potatoes.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Suzan there is a reason Waine doesnt use Dobermans Our breed is no longer suited for it. Thats the hard truth. No one wants it here. Im sorry, I wish it were different for your sake but its not.

Please after all you have done don't even pretend you care about my sake and you do not have the right to use my name ever. I do not address you at all. Let's at least be honest. The discussion is about the Future of Dobermans not me and not you.

Correctly bred dobermans are still suited for it and you can live with them - so much misunderstanding from someone who does not have the experience or depth to even understand that Drives are what make up Temperament. If you look at DVG and Sch USA - PSA etc no one can say that no one wants it here - that is another complete misunderstanding. Just because UDC is smaller does not mean it is not active, alive and well. We fight for the working heritage that sadly the conformation folks don'tst.

To clarify some things that seem to be misunderstood - The DV selects ONE Breed club to represent each country for working sports. For the USA - UDC is that club. UDC is the representative for the working Doberman in this country. Pretty darn impressive if you ask me. Sadly it is small and far to many don't understand the Doberman temperament or how to evaluate it for ultimate stability. A balanced trained Schutzhund dog is the safest dog to be around. You can feel safe both from the outside threat and from the dog. But if you are a member of the club then you support the Doberman and embrace its working heritage because that is what their mission statement say - to protect and preserve the working heritage of the Doberman Pinscher. They have no respect for conformation and fake beauty pageant where half the dogs can barely make it around the ring. Read the threads on how much sickness some have before they even turn two.

I'll put it this way.
Who in this thread has ever put an IPO title on a dog?
Iceman is probably it. That should be a pretty good indicator as to how great of a PP breed Dobermans are in NA.

This is the kind of snotty attitude that turns me cold. - First off DG knows Gunner and his story - the injuries - trained and read to show - Viper who I had trained and did his BH in Wichita and 30 days later he was diagnosed with cancer. Then we lost our helper but I kept the dream alive..........So go smoke that. Talk about red flags - I could give you a few!!!

 

[DocReverto]

I don't need to speak for the majority of people when I make my statements.

I can show you the membership of the UDC compared to the DPCA and that is enough.
The working side of Dobermans has been all of dead for the last 20 years with the exception of a handful of breeders. Some successful some not so. Just because the DPCA supports one event does not mean they have not distanced themselves from the working aspect and you know that.

Can no one answer why they did that?

I would much rather breed for a showy couch potato then a over the top working dog. My dogs need to be able to live with me first. But then again DG I have met your dogs, and they are nowhere near what I would classify as over the top, and have a strong conformation heritage.

Waine prefers Mals because they are better at the job. Just like you bought one, just like police officers use them, as well as our military fellows. Eventually we need to sit down and come to face the facts that our dogs have been bested by two other breeds, and due to this fact there are no longer enough puppy buyers in this breed to sustain a gene pool filled with a working heritage.

You want to know why the Dobermans are loosing the working heritage, and this is the reason. People don't want them anymore.

I hope you do get the titles, but I don't need to say that. I know you will.

 

[DocReverto]

Please after all you have done don't even pretend you care about my sake and you do not have the right to use my name ever. I do not address you at all. Let's at least be honest. The discussion is about the Future of Dobermans not me and not you.

Correctly bred dobermans are still suited for it and you can live with them - so much misunderstanding from someone who does not have the experience or depth to even understand that Drives are what make up Temperament. If you look at DVG and Sch USA - PSA etc no one can say that no one wants it here - that is another complete misunderstanding. Just because UDC is smaller does not mean it is not active, alive and well. We fight for the working heritage that sadly the conformation folks don'tst.

To clarify some things that seem to be misunderstood - The DV selects ONE Breed club to represent each country for working sports. For the USA - UDC is that club. UDC is the representative for the working Doberman in this country. Pretty darn impressive if you ask me. Sadly it is small and far to many don't understand the Doberman temperament or how to evaluate it for ultimate stability. A balanced trained Schutzhund dog is the safest dog to be around. You can feel safe both from the outside threat and from the dog. But if you are a member of the club then you support the Doberman and embrace its working heritage because that is what their mission statement say - to protect and preserve the working heritage of the Doberman Pinscher. They have no respect for conformation and fake beauty pageant where half the dogs can barely make it around the ring. Read the threads on how much sickness some have before they even turn two.



This is the kind of snotty attitude that turns me cold. - First off DG knows Gunner and his story - the injuries - trained and read to show - Viper who I had trained and did his BH in Wichita and 30 days later he was diagnosed with cancer. Then we lost our helper but I kept the dream alive..........So go smoke that. Talk about red flags - I could give you a few!!!

When you want to continue this educational subject I will do so.
If you prefer D4E I will call you so.
This post was completely inappropriate and does no good for this thread or the education associated with it. Enough.

 

[FredC]

Seriously could anyone imagine the pressure our children would feel if we put them under the same microscope as we do our dogs and their breeders? Its quite comical actually. People dont breed the total doberman because its an impossible standard.. Imagine expecting our own kids to grow up be doctors, get married to only the high society with wealth and brains and then force them to be health tested to determine if said couple should even have a family then if all that checks out they must hold a superbowl ring or some other well recognized championship.. Then and only then if all checks out your kids can get married and raise their own family.. isnt that what we are asking of breeders and their dogs all over the world?

 

[DocReverto]

Seriously could anyone imagine the pressure our children would feel if we put them under the same microscope as we do our dogs and their breeders? Its quite comical actually.

It's sad for the dogs, but unfortunately seen as a necessity now.
My number one rule is to treat them like pets, although even I find myself being hard on them at dog shows. Having unrealistic exceptions in extreme competition. We all want our dogs, programs, etc to achieve and grow and that breeds competition much further then inside the ring.

From what I can tell (from prior posts) the competition in Europe is so extreme in some cases that it is no longer about the dogs, although I know that happens here too.

 

[FredC]

From what I can tell (from prior posts) the competition in Europe is so extreme in some cases that it is no longer about the dogs, although I know that happens here too.

Its always about the dogs always has been and always will be.. Its a business after all and the products are dogs.. But the bigger picture has always been about accolades and money.. Most well recognized breeders in Europe are professional.. In the US it would be paramount to political suicide to call your breeding program a professional for profit business.

 

[DocReverto]

I think we have some too, but just mentioning that will get your kennel all over Facebook by the AR nuts.

Leerburg is probably a good example of this as I believe they are big time working breeders for other breeds.

 

[FredC]

Meanwhile the AR propaganda machine is hard at work putting us all at odd with each other and chugging along making progress at every turn as we bicker amongst ourselves......

 

[FredC]

I think we can all play a positive roll simply by following a simple COE.. the waters are so muddy today even the best in the game are challenged regularly, and rightfully so.. The status quo needs to be challenged regularly or it gets complacent.

 

[Gelcoater]

I'll put it this way.
Who in this thread has ever put an IPO title on a dog?

Iceman is probably it. That should be a pretty good indicator as to how great of a PP breed Dobermans are in NA.

While she hasn't posted in this thread and hasn't been around in a while,doesn't Silent Dobe have an IPO?Wasn't she working on IPO III?
It seems like there used to be several members here with that title,but their names elude me?