Future Of American Bred Dobermans

[GennyB]

[Truth: Novice dog owner and doberman enthusiast here, these are my experiences & thoughts that may or may not change]

Why can't there be both a strong drive with the ability to work and also have good temperament that you want the dog to showcase even when in public? I see lots of high drive breeds at the events we go to (whether going as a spectator or competitor) and almost every one of the dogs are under control and are around strangers, going from doing their sport - agility, dock diving, disc dogs etc., to getting pets from a strange child. Yes, there are actually quite a good amount of Mals, Dutchies, German Shepherds and even a few Dobermans at these events that also happen to have protection titles. Different breed but, on the topic of high drive, both Dobermans and BCs (border collies) have pretty high prey drive. BC's drive for most people is a bit too high up there but with a bit of training they can be incredibly well behaved and under control. One of the smartest dogs and Dobermans are not far behind.

Honestly, and this is a huge, huge... peeve of mine and it is where I think a lot of our issues lie...people should take the tiny bit of time to research their breeds before buying. Buying a dog should not be based on looks alone. There are so many breeds out there I can't imagine someone cannot find ONE breed that fits their lifestyle. If someone isn't up for what the breed is, then move onto the next breed. There are a lot of breeds out there that are excellent to own for a first time dog owner or a low key owner. Dogs with low drive and are easy to handle in the typical household. If a person isn't up for basic, basic, dog training, then...they should probably stick with a cat.

It was my understanding that Schutzhund today gives you the ability to show your control of the dog while they are being asked to work in high state of drive, not show an out of control dog. Sighthounds still use lure coursing etc to test the dog's ability to do what it was bred to do - use sight, endurance, speed and agility to chase game. It would be awesome if Dobermans had something similar to test for and to keep that natural protective but controlled instinct in them.

I would absolutely love the look of an NA dobe with the ability to WORK and pass breed tests designed for the Doberman. I know at the moment this is just not expected for most dobes and is incredibly hard to find a breeder that strives for working ability and beauty. In a hopeful world, IMO even a pet dobe, at the very least, would be able to pass the basics of the basics. It would come natural for them, just like even a pet/rescue sighthound can pass an aptitude test for lure coursing because it's naturally in them from many years of maintaining what their parent club states their breed should represent. Breeding stock dobermans would be expected to pass the basics and more...in Conformation, Obedience, and Working Sport. I know it's a lot to expect but understand this is what I would like to see in the future...more than likely it will not be a thing in my lifetime but I'd love to see progress.

I do realize in our current situation breeding stock is low for Dobermans and health is an incredible concern more than ever. It sure as heck won't be easy... it will take time and an incredible amount of work & research but I think with a gradual drive towards the plan of a well balanced dog in multiple areas, we would be able to provide such a Doberman in the years to come. That's my 50cents, lol.

OMG! Where is the LOVE button?? This is perfect! Worth WAY more than 50 cents...

Time for the owner to step up to the dog, not change the dog. Otherwise we might as well just breed golden retrievers.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Time for the owner to step up to the dog, not change the dog. Otherwise we might as well just breed golden retrievers.

Ditto!!!

 

[Dobs4ever]

(quote) CRD For me personally there is a strong strong gap between a strong temperamented dog and the craziness we see on a schutzhund field.

The divide comes from working breeders who breed solely for drive to be used on the field. It's too much man. It's just way to freakin much.

But those dogs are classified as having a strong temperament?? No thanks. I won't breed for it, and I won't promote it.

We have temperament testing options (that out parent club supports)
That do not require the excessive drive classified as a good temperament that we see in so many working breeders in Dobermans.(/Quote)

So are you saying you do not support the "Total Doberman" concept. Because the working sport totally supports keeping a working dog a working dog. When you breed for lesser temperament how do you judge how far down to go and you already say it needs improvement.

Why can't there be both a strong drive with the ability to work and also have good temperament that you want the dog to showcase even when in public? I see lots of high drive breeds at the events we go to (whether going as a spectator or competitor) and almost every one of the dogs are under control and are around strangers, going from doing their sport - agility, dock diving, disc dogs etc., to getting pets from a strange child. Yes, there are actually quite a good amount of Mals, Dutchies, German Shepherds and even a few Dobermans at these events that also happen to have protection titles

Excellent post Rits!!!

 

[DocReverto]

[QUOTE="Dobs4ever,
So are you saying you do not support the "Total Doberman" concept. Because the working sport totally supports keeping a working dog a working dog. When you breed for lesser temperament how do you judge how far down to go and you already say it needs improvement.
![/QUOTE]
If your definition of the total Doberman includes schutzhund then yes I do not support the total Doberman.

My total Doberman entails excellent temperament, health, longevity, and most importantly conformation.

Fix the sport if you need to be, but maybe 2% of Doberman owners in this country want a fly off the handle dog like we see in schutzhund trials.

All of this is irrelevant though. We can shout about how the Doberman is losing it's working heritage all we want. It doesn't matter. You do not have the puppy population to sustain a breed filled with dogs like this. You will never have that anymore, that went bye bye a long time ago.

Say I want a watered down Doberman all you want. I prefer a dog I can live with without sacrifices. Those over the top dogs don't meet that need.

Working sports (at least here, for dobermans) is a joke. I would be really curious as to how many of these dogs would actually protect in a situation where it was needed. And that's where temperament falls into the equation.

You can have these crazy drived dogs and a super poor weak temperament like we see with so many working dobermans in this country.

That sport has been ruined for our breed. It's no longer about having a strong temperament, it's about having a dog that can title in IPO.

All of this is in MHO, I have no desire nor will I ever to try that sport again or breed for those drives.

Eventually one has to ask the question of why the DPCA has all but removed themselves from the working side of it.

The answer is simple. There is no longer a need for that type of dog. There is no longer a want for that type of dog.
So keeping a few breeders to maintain that quota is perfectly fine, the rest of us can focus on the updated picture.

Paint, this clears up my stance on this more.

 

[DocReverto]

In order for you to truly regain that working heritage of the Doberman you need to change the puppy buyer, and then change the dog.

They both are required together, and doing only one kills the breed.


Lets use DCF as a beautiful example as to what I am saying. Lets say hypothetically this breed never lost its working heritage. This board is comprised of maybe 2-4% schutzhund advocates. The rest go to pets, conformation, obedience, tracking, dock diving, etc. 96-98% of the members on this forum would be gone.
Thats just one board.

Here is another example. The DPCA (which has distanced themselves from the working side of it, and is our true parent club) has over 2000 members spread out through every state in this great country. The UDC (working club "total" doberman) has what 300?

Now apply that to our breed. There is no more simple way for me to say this other then people dont want or need our breed for this purpose anymore, but everyone wants a dog with a strong temperament, conformation (we want our dobes to look like dobes), and health with longevity.


Now here is the good news. There will most likely always be that 1-4% of people that want a "working lines" puppy. Enough to sustain programs that sacrifice certain things about dobermans to maintain an all around dog. Because no matter how you cut the cookie there is not a single working breeder in the US that consistently breeds puppies that are competitive in AKC conformation, IABCA or UKC do not count (although tons of fun). On the other hand there isnt a single conformation breeder that consistently breeds puppies that are competitive in IPO sports.

 

[Gelcoater]

I have seen a few that are well balanced dogs,
But most are too fly off the handle drivey for my desires.
I think it's a great sport, and a lot of fun. I would personally rather focus on a strong temperament without the excessive drive seen in working Dobes"

There is not now (nor will there be for quite some time) enough people that want that in a Doberman.

I think a lot of this stems from the argument that Dobermans are not like they were before.

doesn't have that fly off the handle drive like what is seen in Mallinois.

Working sports are just a title.

There are not enough puppy buyers in working breeds altogether to sustain enough Doberman puppies to maintain our working heritage and not bottleneck the gene pool. It's just not there. Blame it on the current state of our nation, the AR agenda, whatever. Not enough people want that type of dog anymore.

See all that I quoted?

From my novice eye it seems there are people that want that kind of dog,and they're buying Mals.I don't know about where you are but I am seeing more of them around all the time.
So I don't think that it's "people don't want that kind if dog" but rather that the Dobe isn't anymore .

Honestly it is just not socially acceptable to have a Doberman with a more "correct" working temperament. Everyone feels like they should all be Golden Retrievers and if they act like an actual Doberman people become afraid. I think this is the reason for softening up the breed so much.

i believe Poppy put the needle on the record here.

 

[DocReverto]

See all that I quoted?

From my novice eye it seems there are people that want that kind of dog,and they're buying Mals.I don't know about where you are but I am seeing more of them around all the time.
So I don't think that it's "people don't want that kind if dog" but rather that the Dobe isn't anymore .

i believe Poppy put the needle on the record here.

This is true. Mals have a level of intensity not seen in Dobermans, and in my honest opinion that crazy drive is what I see in some working dobes. Which drives me nuts because it is so incorrect for our dogs.
But to be fair the reason Mals are so successful in this is due to the high demand they have. They are dogs of war, police dogs, tracking dogs, even hunting dogs. They have a huge demand in everything protection. Dobermans dont, and we lost the demand long before we lost the workability. This may pour salt in the wounds for some, but again if I am being really honest there are dog breeds much better suited for protection work, and that is the number one reason we lost out to them.

 

[Gelcoater]

This is true. Mals have a level of intensity not seen in Dobermans, and in my honest opinion that crazy drive is what I see in some working dobes. Which drives me nuts because it is so incorrect for our dogs.
But to be fair the reason Mals are so successful in this is due to the high demand they have. They are dogs of war, police dogs, tracking dogs, even hunting dogs. They have a huge demand in everything protection. Dobermans dont, and we lost the demand long before we lost the workability. This may pour salt in the wounds for some, but again if I am being really honest there are dog breeds much better suited for protection work, and that is the number one reason we lost out to them.

I disagree with that last part.The Dobe used to be "that dog" and did all those things,they had that demand.
Again,from my novice eye,those qualities are (and have for some decades now) bred out.Bred out by those that want "the look" but not the "touch" so to speak.

 

[DocReverto]

I disagree with that last part.The Dobe used to be "that dog" and did all those things,they had that demand.
Again,from my novice eye,those qualities are (and have for some decades now) bred out.Bred out by those that want "the look" but not the "touch" so to speak.

I believe we lost the want before we lost the ability so to speak.
Dobermans were last used as war dogs in WW2 correct? Then perhaps police k9s through the 70's all while we maintained the workability of this breed.
Then late 70's early 80's they were phased out. GSD's came in to play, and were discovered to be an easier dog for the task. Dobermans were more difficult to train, and were seen as "one handler dogs". GSD's excelled where dobes failed. Through the late 70's early 80's that workability slowly started to decline. Although ironically enough the 80's era conformation Dobermans are my favorite. They were some of the most high quality dogs I have seen. I wish on a conformation level we could breed dogs back to that time period. Raven has a 20 year old pedigree, I intend to build off of that.

I obviously wasnt around during this time ( hell i was born in 89) but this is all from different conformation breeders I have spoken to on the history of our breed. I have a collection of doberman digests, doberman quarterlys, all sorts of publications all dating back to 81 I believe. I was very fortunate to have that passed down to me by my breeder. Its very interesting seeing the progression of our breed from then to now.

 

[Doberman Gang]

To me a strong temperament includes working drive. Working drive is part of the dogs trainability. Whether training for obedience, agility, tracking, dock diving, IPO ect... If you have a dog with a strong drive for work, you will have an easier time in training. Working and training in IPO, I would say I don't see many drivey off the wall dobermans out there. Most of them are of the most stable dobermans I have seen. And yes, there are a few out there that have been driven to the extreme thru improper training methods but that was not the
dogs temperament it was created through bad training.
There are more IPO clubs in Europe thus more dogs being raised to work in that forum. I have seen many puppies with working drive quality go to pet people homes. Many of these dogs will not get raised correctly or even trained. This in itself will create incorrect temperament. So a dog could be breed for correct temperament and have all the tools as a puppy but disappear by adult hood if not trained properly.

 

[iceman]

Buying a dog should not be based on looks alone. There are so many breeds out there I can't imagine someone cannot find ONE breed that fits their lifestyle. If someone isn't up for what the breed is, then move onto the next breed. There are a lot of breeds out there that are excellent to own for a first time dog owner or a low key owner. Dogs with low drive and are easy to handle in the typical household. If a person isn't up for basic, basic, dog training, then...they should probably stick with a cat.

It's a human thing...Wanting something just for its looks, without even considering if it suits them or or not..

Do you think all the people who drive around in fast sports cars can control those vehicles in an emergency?

Nope!! But they still love to buy it if they can afford it.. it's a status symbol.. they just love to be seen with it..

Doberman is the same...everyone wants one (or two) but very few is actually fit for the breed!!!

 

[FredC]

I know this thread is primarily about the Working vs Show Dobermans.. However that typically represents the divide between NA and Euro lines.. Fortunately ive had or come across almost every type.. Just like breeders we all have our preferred type.. After all not all Goldens are hunting dogs, Not all German shorthair pointers, point.. and not all Dobermans work in protection.. Most people have no idea how to control a driven working doberman especially in a country that misunderstands these breeds so easily.. When it comes to the USA it is almost a necessity to compete in conformation vs Bite sports..
First the price to work your dog in a club setting is stupid expensive (in my area at least)
These Working clubs are far and few..
The Doberman isnt even the best prospect for a working breed. (Heck the DOberman is in some cases not even welcome in Schutzhund clubs..)

If America bred a Working Doberman with the same level of drive as a malinois then we would be rehoming them and putting them to sleep at a record pace.. Most Americans would not know what to do with that energy and in some cases even consider the dog "Nuts if its to driven.. Nuts equals unstable and unstable equals dangerous.

But i digress, the reason for my post was more or less to say, give it a few years the AKC doberman pinscher is going to make a huge comeback.. As we will be one of the last remaining countries to allow cropping and docking.. Like it or not looks are and always will be the first factor in consideration of a new puppy..

 

[Dobs4ever]

This is true. Mals have a level of intensity not seen in Dobermans, and in my honest opinion that crazy drive is what I see in some working dobes. Which drives me nuts because it is so incorrect for our dogs.
But to be fair the reason Mals are so successful in this is due to the high demand they have. They are dogs of war, police dogs, tracking dogs, even hunting dogs. They have a huge demand in everything protection. Dobermans dont, and we lost the demand long before we lost the workability. This may pour salt in the wounds for some, but again if I am being really honest there are dog breeds much better suited for protection work, and that is the number one reason we lost out to them

I am getting confused - first you say working dobermans are crazy like Mals and now you say Mals have a level of intensity not seen in Dobermans then that crazy drive is what one see in some working dogs. That is a lot of contradictory terms. Drive is never incorrect in dogs if they are a working breed - only nervy dogs is incorrect. Can you please tell me where you got the info that we lost the demand long before we lost workability?? Honestly the Doberman is the ONLY breed bred specifically to work with man ALL other breeds were bred to herd or protect estates or herds of animals. It is true that their that their ability to switch from handler to handler did not suit our breed. And honestly with the loss of respect for the conformation dog if we follow your reasoning they won't be worth much soon either -

Up until 1989 DPCA still supported the working sport and if you look through old DD you will see the working sport pictures right next to the conformation pictures. BSL is what AKC thought they could hide from. So how has that worked??? Not too well if you ask me. Most of the problems come from people who do not understand correct temperament so they trash it. The doberman is in the working class for a reason. They are the most all around breed alive. Work, train or show -

So you don't believe in the Euro dobermans at all???

It is far easier to cap a drive and use it for training than to try to train a deadbeat dog that just lays on the couch with little to no drive.

 

[iceman]

If America bred a Working Doberman with the same level of drive as a malinois then we would be rehoming them and putting them to sleep at a record pace.. Most Americans would not know what to do with that energy and in some cases even consider the dog "Nuts if its to driven.. Nuts equals unstable and unstable equals dangerous...

Very true statement..100% agreed!!

give it a few years the AKC doberman pinscher is going to make a huge comeback.. As we will be one of the last remaining countries to allow cropping and docking.. Like it or not looks are and always will be the first factor in consideration of a new puppy..

That cannot and will not happen... To make a comeback like expecting the American dobermann to evolve into a high drive working dog is simply not possible...
They dont have the temperament and on top of that they lost the physical qualities required..they are not equipped with the correct tools to do the job.

 

[FredC]

That cannot and will not happen... To make a comeback like expecting the American dobermann to evolve into a high drive working dog is simply not possible...
They dont have the temperament and on top of that they lost the physical qualities required..they are not equipped with the correct tools to do the job.

Working ability is not the premise i make my prediction on.. My point being that because and since looks are the first consideration for most people when considering a breed.. Our C/D dogs will again gain momentum in sales figures while i predict the FCI Dobermann will decline in overall sales vs years prior..

 

[FredC]

iceman i am kind of curious what personal experience you have with NA Dobermans? No motive just curious.

 

[iceman]

Working ability is not the premise i make my prediction on.. My point being that because and since looks are the first consideration for most people when considering a breed.. Our C/D dogs will again gain momentum in sales figures while i predict the FCI Dobermann will decline in overall sales vs years prior..

My prediction is that..only change due to C/D ban in Europe will be American people will be less inclined to import non cropped/docked dogs from Europe...

It will not raise the demand for American Doberman.

 

[iceman]

iceman i am kind of curious what personal experience you have with NA Dobermans? No motive just curious.

Not much............just what i see & read on the net.

 

[FredC]

Not much............just what i see & read on the net.

I think you would be moderately surprised by the typical NA doberman, and dismiss some of your predetermined notions.

 

[Archer]

Honestly, and this is a huge, huge... peeve of mine and it is where I think a lot of our issues lie...people should take the tiny bit of time to research their breeds before buying. Buying a dog should not be based on looks alone. There are so many breeds out there I can't imagine someone cannot find ONE breed that fits their lifestyle. If someone isn't up for what the breed is, then move onto the next breed. There are a lot of breeds out there that are excellent to own for a first time dog owner or a low key owner. Dogs with low drive and are easy to handle in the typical household. If a person isn't up for basic, basic, dog training, then...they should probably stick with a cat.

AMEN!!!!! Also a huge pet peeve of mine. I wrote a research paper on it in college as a persuasive and used it in as a subject in debate. I was amazed at the amount of people who came up to me afterwards and thanked me for chosing it as a topic.

VERY important for reputable breeders and responsible owners to educate, educate, educate