Future Of American Bred Dobermans

[dobelover419]

I'm a far cry from being well educated on the Doberman as a whole but I've always sensed a huge gap in working ability between NA and EU and I guess it just makes me wonder what's gonna become of the Breed. They look the part here in the states but more often then not act like Labs and Golden Retrievers. There's a ton of nice looking Dobermans here but sadly they're extremely soft in Temperament it's disheartening that it's becoming the " Norm " that people want nothing to do with aloof high drive working Dobies. I understand there is no perfect dog but the Euro lines are more to the what the Doberman was bred for in the first place then a show piece it is in North America. Luckily there's a few legit working kennels here trying to produce better dogs but it's going to be an up hill battle.

 

[DocReverto]

As it sits right now you have conformation, or workability.
Temperament can go with both.

There are very few dogs have can successfully claim to have great conformation, great workability, and a great temperament. Me personally I would rather have a Doberman that looks like a Doberman, with a solid temperament.

We have too many weak conformation dogs, and too many ugly working dogs. I have yet to find a breeder in NA that is successful in both. Europe is a different story. I like what they are doing with their dogs, even if I don't like that overdone style.

 

[shadash]

It all depends on what you want. True working dogs are awesome. But working dogs at the highest levels require near full time interaction with their owner/handler. What if you want a Doberman family protector star dog but with kids you need something a little bit less on the working side? In this case many NA dogs fit the bill perfectly. (I'm not trying to infer that Europe Dobermans don't fit well in families) I look at Dobermans as some old American classic cars. Although certain year models might all look the same. The factory provided multiple different engine and performance options. Nobody would ever question if a 1969 xyz car is an xyz car just because of the engine or modification parts the factory installed.

 

[GennyB]

I think the answer to the question is a multipart answer. First, it goes back to the power of the Ar groups. We are bombarded everywhere we go with adds that say we should save a poor little unwanted dog. The purebred dog is not a common site anymore. Mix in the mentality of the Ar groups that we should be kind to our animals and treat them like our babies and that put working dogs in the realm of being treated horribly.
Put breeders in the mix and IMO it is next to impossible to find one the really understands temperament. Which is key if you want to find a dog with good working ability. Too often they think a dog with high drives is a sharp dog. Big difference.
Now to over come the hurdle of finding a club to train with. There is just not one standing on every corner. Then to find one that understand the Doberman is even harder. Not many people have the time or want to put in the effort to find a club and work with them. Often it requires a huge commitment of time and energy.
Add that all together and what you get people thinking they don't have to time to commit, they just want a nice family pet that the kids can play with.

 

[Ingrid H]

As it sits right now you have conformation, or workability.
Temperament can go with both.

There are very few dogs have can successfully claim to have great conformation, great workability, and a great temperament. Me personally I would rather have a Doberman that looks like a Doberman, with a solid temperament.

We have too many weak conformation dogs, and too many ugly working dogs. I have yet to find a breeder in NA that is successful in both. Europe is a different story. I like what they are doing with their dogs, even if I don't like that overdone style.

How do you define "successful"? Are you limiting your opinion to certain clubs and organizations like AKC for conformation and USA for schutzhund? And what do you mean by an "overdone style" in the Euros? I have seen Euros that I do not find attractive like the Pride of Russia dogs for example. I don't like their short legs and pigeon chests. There are some working/show breeders in the US striving to maintain FCI standards and getting titles in UKC and other organizations.

 

[Dobs4ever]

The long standing divide - conformation vs working ability (working defines temperament) A working dog can not be true to temperament without good working drives. Temperament trumps all in a working breed. I was just reading an article on the golden retrievers and how pathetic their working ability had become because they could no longer fulfill that for which they were bred right down to coats that were wrong and would not repel water. A beauty pageant can't test temperament.

The European dogs gained popularity when the American dogs failed on so many of the temperament testing and way too many conformation people don't even do the WAE or consider it important. Many totally misunderstand temperament and working as all they think is the dog bites - ALL DOGS BITE. Sadly today more bite out of fear or nervy because we have failed to test temperament or even working drives.

The conformation dogs lost their reputation as a working dog because they could not pass even a minimum temperament test.
Euro's gained favor when they did a better job retaining the correct working temperament. It is sad the poor reputation conformation dogs have today.

In a working breed we must test temperament to stay true to the origins of any breed and meet the temperament as described in the Standard.

 

[Poppy]

Honestly it is just not socially acceptable to have a Doberman with a more "correct" working temperament. Everyone feels like they should all be Golden Retrievers and if they act like an actual Doberman people become afraid. I think this is the reason for softening up the breed so much.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Poppy that is because most folks do not understand "correct" working temperament. Any temperament not bred correctly can and is more likely to produce shy, overly nervy, unstable temperaments, and numerous other issues we seen in any incorrectly bred dog...but for working breeds correct temperament is paramount.

 

[DocReverto]

Working sports are just a title.

You can test temperament without getting working titles, and breed for dogs with correct temperaments.

There are not enough puppy buyers in working breeds altogether to sustain enough Doberman puppies to maintain our working heritage and not bottleneck the gene pool. It's just not there. Blame it on the current state of our nation, the AR agenda, whatever. Not enough people want that type of dog anymore.

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

I think CRD is right. It is a supply and demand dilemma as much as anything. And there are a lot of breeders crossing the American and European Dobe here at home in order to strengthen the American Dobe, in hopes of countering what is viewed as the decline of the breed here. There is just not the market for a true working Dobe in the USA to sustain the breed beyond a few kennels that are doing just that. IMHO.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Conformation is just a title -
Obedience is just a title
Working sports is just a title

None are perfect because they are developed and run my humans who are far from perfect - It still gives great insight into the dogs ability to do a job that it was bred for. It has been used for generations to evaluate our dogs. It is what you do and how you use the info you gain about the dog on the journey that is most important.

Just as we hear there are a lot of CH that should not be there are a lot of working dogs that should not be. Nothing is perfect if used by humans. I do agree that there are not enough good working homes. We can use any excuse we want does not mean it justifies the end result.....weak dogs.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Well it is probably a good thing that the american dobermans have been watered down. There are way too many people who want a golden retriever in a dobermans body. Most pet owners do not have enough knowledge to know what training is needed for a real working doberman nor would they want to put in the time it takes to train one. If all the puppies being breed were high drive, with correct temperament, we would have many more dobe's in shelters and rescues because of people not being able to handle them. This is why it is so important for people looking for a puppy to find a good respected breeder who can place them with a puppy to fit there needs.

 

[Caloni]

Honestly if it weren't for that soft loving temperament I would never have one. I know that is not what they were originally designed for, but it works in my favor so many ways. We use them for service dogs. And while mine DOES have the high ball drive and working aptitude he is really focused when working. Training him for the tasks to help me out with things has taken less than half the time it would have taken me to train a lab to do the same job. I wouldn't give up my guy for a lab or a golden any day! There is just no other breed (accept the one off standard poodle) that can match the well rounded dobe!

 

[Caloni]

Well it is probably a good thing that the american dobermans have been watered down. There are way too many people who want a golden retriever in a dobermans body. Most pet owners do not have enough knowledge to know what training is needed for a real working doberman nor would they want to put in the time it takes to train one. If all the puppies being breed were high drive, with correct temperament, we would have many more dobe's in shelters and rescues because of people not being able to handle them. This is why it is so important for people looking for a puppy to find a good respected breeder who can place them with a puppy to fit there needs.

I agree, but also with that original temperament and drive it pigeon holes the Doberman breed into only a few select jobs. You can't have them on a farm with chickens easily because of the prey drive, an inexperienced owner will never know the love that many do because they would not be able to handle a Doberman with the temperament they were intended to have, and many disabled people would never have the opportunity to own such a loyal companion to help them be more independent. While I understand some people's frustration with the straying from the original picture of the Doberman, I am honored to own one that is a big softie!

 

[Dobs4ever]

It brings up some interesting perspectives - If we breed to satisfy people who know little about dogs and who won't put in the effort did we do the dogs justice or did we honor the standard??? And most of them should not even have a golden retriever.

Again it is a misunderstanding that a correct working dog is not lovable and highly trainable, incredibly loyal and protective. If a dog is balanced you use the drives and channel them into an amazing dog who if needed will stand firm and protect.

 

[DocReverto]

I'll be honest. I don't want schutzhund type doberman. I have seen a few that are well balanced dogs,
But most are too fly off the handle drivey for my desires.
I think it's a great sport, and a lot of fun. I would personally rather focus on a strong temperament without the excessive drive seen in working Dobes"

And I think that viewpoint carries through for the rest of north and South America, as well as Australia (although less so there). There is not now (nor will there be for quite some time) enough people that want that in a Doberman. Sure a great temperament,
And a dog that looks like a Doberman are both desired qualities by puppy buyers, and everyone really.

I think a lot of this stems from the argument that Dobermans are not like they were before. Look at every breed of dog and you will see changes. Some big and some small. I love the less drivey Dobermans, but that also doesn't mean soft either.

There is no reason why breeders can't focus on a strong temperamented dog with excellent conformation that doesn't have that fly off the handle drive like what is seen in Mallinois.

 

[DocReverto]

It brings up some interesting perspectives - If we breed to satisfy people who know little about dogs and who won't put in the effort did we do the dogs justice or did we honor the standard??? And most of them should not even have a golden retriever.
.

This is a perfectly fine philosophy but it fails in real world application.

If we were to apply this to ever breeder in NA we would drive our breed to extinction within 20 years.

On the other hand what we are doing now is working for the most part ok. We need to up our game on temperament and ESPECIALLY HEALTH.

There are a lot of things I will fight for our breed,
Maintaining the over the top drives is not one of them
And purebred dogs came about To satisfy mans needs. That is really what all this is about.

General maintenance no longer applies to dog breed. We tried that, we failed.
Our breed is split into two different groups. Both with massive health issues.
We need to maintain the timeless things if that makes sense, and there is no longer a need for schutzhund type Dobermans for most. Which is a big reason why te DPCA distances themselves so far away from it, and chooses the timeless Doberman qualities to maintain and improve on.


On a true working level lets break this down further.

Are Dobermans used as war dogs anymore?
No
Are Dobermans used as police dogs anymore?
No
Are Dobermans used for tracking?
Yes
Obedience?
Yes
Conformation?
Yes
Service work?
Yes

Not a single one of those requires excessive drive found in so many Dobermans on the working side of it. On the other hand all of them could benefit from a strong temperamented dog with excellent health and longevity.

 

[Dobs4ever]

I have seen very very few dobermans that even come close to a mal.... In fact they would be very rare as they are bred so completely different.

So if it is working why would we need to up temperament??? And no one has talked about over the top drives. We have talked about balance over and over.

 

[DocReverto]

I have seen very very few dobermans that even come close to a mal.... In fact they would be very rare as they are bred so completely different.

So if it is working why would we need to up temperament??? And no one has talked about over the top drives. We have talked about balance over and over.

For me personally there is a strong strong gap between a strong temperamented dog and the craziness we see on a schutzhund field.

I said for the most part we are doing ok. Temperament is one of those things that is not so ok. As well as health.

The divide comes from working breeders who breed solely for drive to be used on the field. It's too much man. It's just way to freakin much.

But those dogs are classified as having a strong temperament?? No thanks. I won't breed for it, and I won't promote it.

We have temperament testing options (that out parent club supports)
That do not require the excessive drive classified as a good temperament that we see in so many working breeders in Dobermans.

 

[Rits]

[Truth: Novice dog owner and doberman enthusiast here, these are my experiences & thoughts that may or may not change]

Why can't there be both a strong drive with the ability to work and also have good temperament that you want the dog to showcase even when in public? I see lots of high drive breeds at the events we go to (whether going as a spectator or competitor) and almost every one of the dogs are under control and are around strangers, going from doing their sport - agility, dock diving, disc dogs etc., to getting pets from a strange child. Yes, there are actually quite a good amount of Mals, Dutchies, German Shepherds and even a few Dobermans at these events that also happen to have protection titles. Different breed but, on the topic of high drive, both Dobermans and BCs (border collies) have pretty high prey drive. BC's drive for most people is a bit too high up there but with a bit of training they can be incredibly well behaved and under control. One of the smartest dogs and Dobermans are not far behind.

Honestly, and this is a huge, huge... peeve of mine and it is where I think a lot of our issues lie...people should take the tiny bit of time to research their breeds before buying. Buying a dog should not be based on looks alone. There are so many breeds out there I can't imagine someone cannot find ONE breed that fits their lifestyle. If someone isn't up for what the breed is, then move onto the next breed. There are a lot of breeds out there that are excellent to own for a first time dog owner or a low key owner. Dogs with low drive and are easy to handle in the typical household. If a person isn't up for basic, basic, dog training, then...they should probably stick with a cat.

It was my understanding that Schutzhund today gives you the ability to show your control of the dog while they are being asked to work in high state of drive, not show an out of control dog. Sighthounds still use lure coursing etc to test the dog's ability to do what it was bred to do - use sight, endurance, speed and agility to chase game. It would be awesome if Dobermans had something similar to test for and to keep that natural protective but controlled instinct in them.

I would absolutely love the look of an NA dobe with the ability to WORK and pass breed tests designed for the Doberman. I know at the moment this is just not expected for most dobes and is incredibly hard to find a breeder that strives for working ability and beauty. In a hopeful world, IMO even a pet dobe, at the very least, would be able to pass the basics of the basics. It would come natural for them, just like even a pet/rescue sighthound can pass an aptitude test for lure coursing because it's naturally in them from many years of maintaining what their parent club states their breed should represent. Breeding stock dobermans would be expected to pass the basics and more...in Conformation, Obedience, and Working Sport. I know it's a lot to expect but understand this is what I would like to see in the future...more than likely it will not be a thing in my lifetime but I'd love to see progress.

I do realize in our current situation breeding stock is low for Dobermans and health is an incredible concern more than ever. It sure as heck won't be easy... it will take time and an incredible amount of work & research but I think with a gradual drive towards the plan of a well balanced dog in multiple areas, we would be able to provide such a Doberman in the years to come. That's my 50cents, lol.