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[fci] Dobermann Breed Standard Changes On 1st Of January 2015

Discussion in 'Doberman Talk and Discussions' started by iceman, Sep 6, 2013.

  1. Betty

    Betty Notable member

    I agree good breeders should and do check the health of their dogs before breeding and I know getting a dog from a rescue is taking a chance. However, Rocco was the only dog that we think survived in the litter... The sad thing is many breeders don't care as much as many of you all do... I think we do need good breeders and totally support breeding when it's done with the good of the breed and not just to make puppies.

     
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  2. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    And BLESS you for your kind generous heart to take these poor babies and give them a loving home.
     
  3. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Wow, I'm not sure how to respond to that because my mouth is kinda hanging open. lol! I guess I just have to say I still don't believe that for a second.

    I am not a breeder and I really don't know a thing about it so maybe I shouldn't be in this conversation at all. But adhering to a standard just always seemed to me as common (is that the right word?? :scratch:) or maybe as 'right' as getting up and going out to make a living each day. It's just what is and should be done to maintain a breed. I'm not sure how maintaining a standard ruins the health. I'm speaking purely from a pet persons point of view but one that has known and recognized many breeds by their look or standard. I think over the years there may have been some changing like the stance in the German Shepherd (that lowing of the back end, which I've always hated) but I don't think I've even known such a radical change done to a breed like this before.

    I'm sorry but I feel the same way, Matt. It's a bit confusing.

    No harm done! lol! I respond to both! ;) But I am Woman, hear me Roar! :spit:
     
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  4. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    What if we throw out the standards of all purebred dogs??? What do you think would happen when some one decides the way to correct everything is to breed to a Poodle or a Labrador or a Neopolitian Mastiff???? What just happened to the Doberman??? In 10 years very few breeds if any would be recognizable..............BUT everyone had a CHOICE to just do their own thing. Purebred dogs are not really about choice when the standard comes into play. We have choice of over 300 breeeds - but not choice in the standard of each breed or we shouldn't because look at what just one tiny little choice has done to our breed, our standard and soon all dogs period.

    To say a standard should be slackened is to say it should become worthless as the paper it is written on. What part would you slacken to make improvements??? To slacken means to make easier yet everyone complains that it is too easy and most are those who are new to the breed so have no real history or understanding of purebred or they bought from less than reputable breeders then blame breeding for the problem. The problems were caused because people did not care about the standard and/or did not understand it's importance, or wanted to do their own thing regardless (oversized comes to mind) and then they blame the problems on the whole fancy. The whole purpose of the purebred dog world is to protect and preserve the breed and improve the breed NOT to make someone feel warm and fuzzy to change the look to please themselves ....

    The first Doberman standard was written approximately 1921 very quickly after the breed was fully established and set by type and yes Herr Doberman obviously had a specific look in mind when he bred his dogs. He did try to breed in a tailess dog but it was not successful as the tailess dog did not thrive. Occassionally you will still have a tailess dog crop up. I had one puppy out of all the years I have bred that was born with a stub for a tail.

    He had a specific temperament in mind - but that temperament would not do well in todays society so it had to be improved to be more socialable. READ the standards both FCI and AKC call for a more socialable dog. Herr Doberman's dogs were very scrapy (meaning they were spoiling for a fight- The temperament had to be toned down and both Europe and America have toned down the temperament to make the dog easier for people to live with.
     
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  5. Matt Vandart

    Matt Vandart Hot Topics Subscriber

    D4E- You remember incorrectly, I have nearly 30 years in training the breed in OB and protection since I was 10 and have lived with dobes for 6 months off 40, since I was born. I have lived MY WHOLE LIFE with the breed, so, I remember quite well the 'old school' doberman....
    Again you assume too much.
    What you may remember me saying is my breeder packed in breeding dobermans when the docking laws came here and DCM got into her line. Then I had to go look for another.
    I don't see why you are taking this so personally, I havn't in any way attacked your breeding program but while we are on the subject how about you outline for us what a responsible (note I am not saying reputable) breeder does to maintain or improve the:

    Health
    Working ability
    Conformation

    and which order should these be prioritized? (that is my order of importance)



    MyBuddy- the problem comes from originally doubling up (line and inbreeding) in order to perfect the chosen part of the standard and fix it in the line. Yes you may double up on a good neck but you could also be doubling up on bad stuff, like DCM, vW, kidney problems, eye problems etc. and in the case of necks wobblers.
     
  6. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    I am not taking anything personal and I said if I remember form the other fourm and videos you posted I thought you were fairly new at training based on your videos and questions asked. If I remember incorrectly then I apologize. i could go look it up but it is not that big a deal. I am just surprised if you have that much time in the breed that you could knock it so much. Once you are owned by a doberman I can't imagine any other breed.

    I am trying to understand where you are coming from. You above all should understand the importance of a standard and it's value in protecting and preserving a breed. I am for the doberman so when somene comes on and puts them down I stand up for them because for me there is no other breed. If you no longer like this breed then I get it, but that does not mean I will not continue to stand up for them and their standard. Do I believe we have made mistakes - yes - but the standard is there to guide us back.

    I don't personally like Mals as I have seen way too many nervy scrawny out of control Mals and in another thread you made the comment that you could get a good Mal for $450.00 - I don't believe it. And I am speaking from Mals I have seen at training through the years, but i am not going on a Mal list and knocking them - I leave that the the Mal folks to clean up their own mess.

    I do get frustrated with folks who complain and run down a breed yet give no positive solid way to correct it and or have one foot out the door. I am here for the long haul. I work, train, study to learn all I can to improve not just condemn. Are there problems - sure but there are problems with everything. We have to work together not tear the breed down.
     
  7. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Sorry - I did not answer this and I certainly did not mean to overlook it.

    I have said it many times breeding is like a 4 legged stool - conformation, working drives, trainability and health - So if you take any leg away the stool is unbalanced and will not stand. If you put anyone thing over the other the breed or the breeding program will suffer. The Doberman is described as a balanced dog and we need to remember that we need balance in anything and everything.

    We have seen what happens if one only focuses on only ne thing ex: conformation - working drives and trainiablity diminish - If you only focus on working drives in your program then conformation goes down the tubes. One must work and strive for balance.

    BUT it is my beleif that to breed solely with the focus on health will destory the breed. Why - well - how do you evaluate health of any one dog??? Testing is one way but testing does not give us info on future problems that might arise - they only tell us on that one day what they results were unless you are speaking of DNA test which tell us a lot and how to avoid something but it does not guarantee health. You can study pedigrees and make decisions based on the history but again it is not 100% accurate.

    Most ailments don't crop up til after 5 - Best breeding years are 2 to 5 - how do you eliminate with very little to base it on??? If we radically eliiminate dogs that we suspect might be an issue we face the problem of destorying a gene pool that you claim is already to limited by breeding practices but fail to realize that the very nature of what was required to create the breed limited the gene pool. So is our choice to have Dobermans as a breed or not to have them??? I don't like that choice at all. I choose to have Dobermans and hope we find the valid test to guide us to the best breeding decisions possible.

    So just FYI - what I have done - study - test- train- work and show - Had 2 year old that was trained and ready to go into the ring - would not pass OFA so neutered him and placed as pet - had beautiful bitch that was PDK4 positive - already had litter on the ground when test came out - male was neg so kept female out of breeding and spayed her and placed her as pet. She is 7 now and the family LOVES her to death. What more do you think breeders should do??? I still wonder if I made the right decision on the bitch as she had a stellar pedigree and was stunning and today is still healthy as far as test can tell Bred to negative you can quickly get to neg.

    I understand it is frustrating for us all - pet owners, handlers and certainly breeders. But I can not imagine one single breeder out therr who would knowingly breed a dog that was not healthy as it is one of the main things one looks for in a good breeding prospect and is one of the first things if sign are there that would cause a breeder to eliminate them - so breeders don't intentionally breed unhealthy dogs at least good breeders don't. I do believe a lot of the BYB don't even recognize what makes a healthy dog for consideration just as they have no clue on conformation or working ability.

    We must work together not tear one another down for things that we have no answers for. We need to stand up for the breed and if we can't stand up for them then leave and get whatever you want that you feel is better. That is JMHO And now I am heading out for tracking and training as I have a trail in a couple weeks.
     
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  8. Matt Vandart

    Matt Vandart Hot Topics Subscriber

    £450 GBP not dollars.

    Also I have put forward ways to sort the problems out in this thread and many before, I mostly get head in the sand reactions as I have in this one.
    A standard is not a bad thing in and of itself, a realistic standard is what is required as well as a realistic outlook on the potential for a dog to live up to that standard. By obsessing with conformation more specifically the physical look of the dog other equally and IMO more important factors have been left by the wayside.

    You say yourself the doberman should be the whole package, show conformation, working ability and optimum health. Yet many 'show winners' with no working ability let alone title pass their genetics on at an alarming rate.
    Dobermans as I have said before the but of many jokes in working circles and for good reason that I can see.
    Yes a good working doberman is a sight to behold and IMO the best there is, but there are relatively few of them.
    Add that to the fact they could drop dead at any minute or start 'wobbling' or bleed to death or die of cancer etc and it is plain to see:

    SOMETHING IS WRONG

    and no sacred 'standard' is going to solve it.
     
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  9. Matt Vandart

    Matt Vandart Hot Topics Subscriber

    Also a three legged stool is inherently more stable, that is why milking stools have three legs.
    Working drives and train-ability= working ability
    Nit picking for sure just thought I would help you out with your analogy for the future.

    I asked for assistance and advice for IPO style obedience , not for general OB. IPO is a new venue for me and I am not afraid to ask for and respect the advice and opinions of others more experienced than me in this field. This does not mean I have no experience of the breed or of training in general.
     
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  10. Matt Vandart

    Matt Vandart Hot Topics Subscriber

    FYI re: Malinois

    TOP 10 IPO WC 2012

    1 Mario Verslijpe & Hasco van de Duvetorre (Belgium) Malinois 96A / 98B / 98C / 292 total

    2 Karl Heinz Knies & Dusty vom Hornbachtal ( Germany ) Malinois 97A / 96B / 96C / 289 total

    3 Jürgen Schwendinger & Yackson de Villalazan (Austria) Malinois 97A / 93B / 97C / 287 total

    4 Michael Kötters & Rigo vom Haus Mecki (Germany) Malinois 92A / 98B / 96C / 286 total

    5 Suszter Ferenc & Sentinel Pike German (Hungary) Shepherd Dog 97A / 93B / 95C / 285 total

    6 Jaroslav Vnenčák & Witz Eqidius (Slovakia ) German Shepherd Dog 97A / 90B / 97C / 284total

    7 Edgar Scherkl & Cayman vom Adlerauge (Germany) Malinois 95A / 95B / 94C / 284 total

    8 Robert Parak & Finni von der Brunnenstadt (Germany) Malinois 95A / 90B / 98C / 283 total

    9 Szűcs Katalin & Satoris Raiko Roni (Hungary) German Shepherd Dog 96A / 94B / 93C / 283 total

    10 Patrik Karlsson & Vandalens Kulan (Sweden) Malinois 97A / 90B / 95C / 282 total
     
  11. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

     
  12. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Sorry - I hit something and it posted then typed too long to add to post above.

    I intentionally use a 4 legged stool because I have seen dogs with Strong working drives but they were not real trainable. For a dog to excel it must be balanced in drives, trainability, conformation and health. But I am not going to condemn the conformation ring because it does exactly what it was designed to do - judge conformation. If I wanted to blame some thing then i would blame those who get a working breed and don't learn about the working aspect.

    Whether Mal, Dobermans, GSD or what ever the latest flavor is when they become highly popular breeding takes a dive and that is what we have seen happen to the Mal this past 10 years........It was suddenly the dog for everyone and everyone got a couple and bred them - Now we see a lot that are unstable just as happened with the Dobermans. But that is nto the breed or the standards fault. It is those who do not pay any attention to the standard don't work their own dogs so have no clue about working drives and ability. For the most part the trainiablity has remained because they do have to train to stand and show conformation. But without conformation we would have roached backs that resemlbe a camel, snipey heads like a collie, poor structure that would not hold up to work and juts donw right butt ugly dogs. I see some of those around andit makes me really sad because they did not ask to be born.

    I dont' envy you your task if you are now trying to train 3 dogs at once. Been there done that and it is a ton of work and committment espeically if you are trying to train two different breeds that are programmed very differently. A lot of Dobermans I have seen fail fail more because the trainers failed them than that they dog failed. You can't train a Doberman like a GSD and unfortunatley Schutzhund was designed to test the GSD not the Doberman. The training has to adapt to the Doberman or the dog will not succeed.

    I could show you a list of Doberman with scores just as good as those above so don't know what that proves, except that good dogs can work. And that is what we all want but to blame an entire breed for the problems created by a few people and then throw out the only thing we have to guide us back to the original intent is not level thinking. it is not the standards fault if people do not breed to it.

    Blame the breeders who dont' understand and blame the pet people who buy their dogs with no understanding of what a purebred is suppose to be and blame the AR groups who are out to destroy us all. NOT the DOGS and NOT the standard.
     
  13. Matt Vandart

    Matt Vandart Hot Topics Subscriber

    A recent list of scores at world level?

    The point of the post is the Mal is alive kicking and winning at world level.
     
  14. ServiceDogUser

    ServiceDogUser Notable member

    I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Maybe for the average person, the effect of cropping and docking are negligible, but there is an effect. Undocked tails in a happy working dock wag, a lot, and this can lead to something that has a lot of different names -- happy tail, broken tail, wet tail, etc. But regardless of what you call it, it's the same thing; essentially, the dog has sprained its tail from wagging it too much and/or whacking it against something. This is a painful condition for the dog, and once it happens, it's more likely to happen again. If it happens frequently, then it's often recommended that the dog have its tail amputated -- because at this stage, it is an amputation and is much harder on the dog than docking when its three days old.

    Puppy raisers for guide dog programs are often told to be on the lookout for this. If the guide prospect is too exuberant a tail wagger, then it will be "career changed" and removed from the guide program, especially if it can't learn to control its wagging while its working. Likewise, a prospect who gets multiple episodes of happy tail will be dropped. Remember that these dogs are primarily Labradors and golden retrievers, who are supposed to have tails. I once trained an Italian Spinone, which is another commonly docked breed. This individual was not docked, and he frequently got happy tail. When it happened, he would cry every time he tried to wag his tail. It was heartbreaking to watch because there was nothing we could do for him -- no way to splint his tail or anything.

    Docking can also change temperament. Obviously, we're not talking about something that is as deep as genetics, but studies have been done on docked dogs versus undocked dogs. They showed that the docked dogs responded to things more cautiously, whereas the undocked dogs would simply rush in. The effect was, generally speaking, that the docked dogs had better situation and threat discernment because they took the time to take in a situation before going in.

    Speaking personally, I will never have a dog that is not docked. It's not for any vain, aesthetic reason; it's because those tails hurt me. When I had Drake, my lab, he left welts and bruises up and down my legs from his tail. Some might say that it's because he had a big, thick tail, but I've been around dogs with whip tails and they make me bleed. I have my dogs to mitigate my disability, and a tailed dog will add to my troubles.

    Along the same lines, I need a dog with erect ears. Dogs with floppy ears are harder to read. Part of my dog's job is to provide threat and reality discernment. I have a neurological disorder that makes it so I hear things incorrectly. The wind might sound like a siren, so when a siren actually comes, I ignore it. My dog's body language tells me if there is something that needs to be paid attention to -- a siren, someone screaming, someone calling my name, a car coming, anything that could be a danger to me. On top of that, because of my disorder, I have trouble reading people. I can't remember face, either, so if someone comes up to me and acts like the know me, I have to trust that they do because I can't tell. I have to trust my dog to tell me if the person means me harm or not. Erect ears make this so, so much easier. I can see the slightest twitch, which direction they're pointing, if the dog is relaxed or not -- the ears tell me so much. Right now, I have a dog with floppy ears, and I am having such a hard time because of it. I feel like I can't trust her, not because she's not doing her job, but because I can't read her. And to be clear, it's not because I can't actually read her expression or anything like that, but because when I'm out with my erect-eared dog, it takes me a split second to look and see my dog's ears because they are very clear but the floppy ears take more time to process for me (especially when I'm having trouble) because they blend in with the rest of the dog.

    I know that originally the doberman's ears were cropped to keep people from grabbing onto them in a fight, but it seems to me that anyone working a dobe for protection would equally benefit from being able to read the dog's cropped ears quickly and reliably. Again, this is not to say a floppy ear dog's ear can't be read, but directionality, speed, etc., are more difficult -- things that could make a significant difference while making split second decisions on the job.

    With all this said, I certainly don't disagree that the visual effect of a cropped and docked dobe is anything to sneer at. There are people who make the decision to get one solely for the looks, and while I can't say I agree with that, I also can't say that it had no effect whatsoever on my decision to get one. Working a service dog, people reach out and grab my dog frequently. Where I used to be, it was on a daily basis, multiple times a day. No amount of giant "do not pet" patches would work, so I stopped putting them on. Being polite is not only exhausting but also isn't effective, and cutting people off before they interfere makes you a bitch, etc., and still isn't effective. But when you've got a doberman at your side... Believe me when I say people think twice about just sticking their hand out to pet your dog. They are more likely to keep a respectful distance from me and don't argue when I say "don't pet". When your dog is literally responsible for your life, this is a huge thing.

    I've had someone who was anti-cropping tell me that I would have the same experience with a natural doberman, but I can tell you from experience that I would not. I took a natural dobe out for training, and I got as many, if not more, pettings than I did with my lab. People thought she was a hound. When I told them she was a dobe, a lot of them would recoil like they were touching a hot poker, and they told me if they had known she was a dobe, they wouldn't have petted her without asking first. Of course, this dog was not my service dog so it didn't matter quite as much, but the experience still stands. A natural dobe will get petted the way a cropped and docked one would not, and this would be potentially detrimental to my health and wellbeing.

    As much as I hate to say it and as much as I am completely in love with the doberman as a whole, if cropping and docking became illegal here in the US, I don't think I would have another one. Some of you might think I'm a horrible person for it, but my dogs (and cats) work -- all of them, even the neurologically impaired Chihuahua. If the dog cannot work for me in a way that is safe, then it doesn't belong in my house. And that breaks my heart, really and truly. I love dobermans so much. They are my heart. But as much as I love their temperament and all things about them that are not their physical appearance, their physical appearance is part of them, part of the total doberman package, and that is why I'll do whatever it takes to keep this from happening here.

    Thank you! I have worked GSDs, Malinois, AmBulls, terriers, sighthounds, BRTs, and several others. There are many other breeds out there that I truly enjoy, but there is nothing that compares to a doberman. It's not the fact that they can do other things; it's the way they do it.

    I disagree that a mastiff's function is the same as a GSD. For that matter, the other dogs you listed are quite different. Poodles were for hunting, AmBulls were all-around farm dogs, kelpies were herders and shepherd's helpers... Yes, a lot of them do protection work now, but that's hardly what they were originally designed for. The reason we have different breeds if because they were for different things, and many of them are much older than what emerged during the Victorian era. Maybe that's when the standards were formed, but that's hardly when the breeds themselves were created, at least for a lot of them.

    Regardless of that, however, each breed of dog is fundamentally different, even the ones that have been bred to do the same job. Golden retrievers are very different from Labrador retrievers. Heck, most Labrador enthusiasts would argue that there is a drastic temperament difference between the three colors. GSDs and dobermans can both do protection work, absolutely, but there's no way in hell I would recommend a GSD for the very vast majority of people for service work, whereas I would recommend a doberman for many, dependent on needs. Temperament and personality are so, so much more than just the ability to do the job.
     
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  15. Matt Vandart

    Matt Vandart Hot Topics Subscriber

    That's an interesting insight into cropping and docking from a different perspective and thank you for the effort you put in to write such a post.

    I would argue docked dogs are more cautious as a learned behavior from meeting other dogs that can't read their intentions from lack of tail.

    Secondly you are, like D4E bending my words, I didn't say the other breeds were bred for the job, I said there are other breeds that can and have been shown to do the job.
    Re: Mastiff the same function as GSD, never said that, I said the general purpose of the dog is very similar to GSD/MAL/MASTIFF i.e SECURITY.

    I have personally trained different types of 'Personal protection dogs' the original purpose of the Doberman that people make out to be such a big deal and have assisted in training many of the above mentioned breeds and I can tell you they perform the original function of the doberman perfectly well tails and all.

    That 'waggy tail' thing is not of major relevance to the average working doberman, you are talking about dogs that spend their whole day working, most dobermans that work maybe do a few hours a day if that.
     
  16. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    If you read what Betty wrote she got rescues who certainly were not bred with any standard in mind. By finding a breeder who tries to follow the standard you actually stack the deck in your favor to have a healthier dog.

    Form follows function means that the function dictates the form - correct shoulder placement correct angulation etc- please read with clarity. You also need to follow the continued function of those dogs who are not bred to standard - they eventually break down if worked.

    TheVictorian periodformally begins in 1837 (the yearVictoriabecame Queen) and ends in 1901 (the year of her death) - NOTE - the first Doberman standard was not written til 1921 so had nothing to do with the Victorian era

    The standard does not cause blindness that ruins health. The standard implies vigerous health - but you can't measure it or pridict the future health - Just as I would say your obession and misunderstanding of the standard blinds you to the ppoint of making an irrational statement that ruining health is deliberate - that is not a reational thought process at all.


    The Doberman standard is praised as one of the very best written standards that exist. It is clear, concise and very descriptive. If people can't follow what is written how would making it looser improve anything??? Just what people do you think would know more than the people who were actually working in the field and developing the breed???


    I have asked this before but I believe your two Dobermans are under 3 years of age - is that right??? If you have decided to leave the breed what are your plans for those inferior Dobermans???

    As far as the obcession with the victorian era - that is when dog shows started late 1800's and that is when the registeries started so they had to have standards to follow. In the past like the saluki's pekingese etc the older breeds people had guarded very closely the desired traits and talked among themselves as they worked to preserve features, functions and looks of certain dogs. The modern day standards derived from these early descriptions of the breeds. As new breed began to immerge they knew the need for standards.

    On health: from the DPCA standard: http://dpca.org/breed/breed_standard.htm
    GENERAL APPEARANCE
    The appearance is that of a dog of medium size, with a body that is square. Compactly built, muscular and powerful, for great endurance and speed. Elegant in appearance, of proud carriage, reflecting great nobility and temperament. Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient.

    GAIT
    Free, balanced and vigorous, with good reach in the forequarters and good driving power in the hindquarters. When trotting, there is strong rear-action drive. Each rear leg moves in line with the foreleg on the same side. Rear and front legs are thrown neither in nor out. Back remains strong and firm. When moving at a fast trot, a properly built dog will single-track.
    Notice how many of the words used are considered signs of good health which is about all you can do with any certainty - Muscular - powerful - endurance speed - energetic, alert all depict signs of a healthy dog as far as anyone can tell.

    FCI standard: http://www.dobermann-review.com/info_library/Dobermann_Standard/FCI_Dobermann_Standard.php

    General Appearance
    The Dobermann is a medium sized, powerful and muscularly built dog. Thanks to the elegant lines of its body and its proud expression of determination, this dog conforms to the ideal figure of a dog.

    Gait
    The gait is very important for the type of work that the dog is destined to do as well as for the morphological evaluation. The movement is elastic, elegant, agile, free and covers ground easily. The front limbs bounce forward while the hindlimbs give the necessary push to make a vigorous step. While trotting, one of the front limbs goes forward simultaneously with one of the hindlimbs from the opposite side. During the movement, the back the ligament and the joints, are firm.

    So don't think there was much twisting of words.
     
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  17. Matt Vandart

    Matt Vandart Hot Topics Subscriber

    If you read what Betty wrote she got rescues who certainly were not bred with any standard in mind. By finding a breeder who tries to follow the standard you actually stack the deck in your favor to have a healthier dog.



    Form follows function means that the function dictates the form - correct shoulder placement correct angulation etc- please read with clarity. You also need to follow the continued function of those dogs who are not bred to standard - they eventually break down if worked.

    AKC standard has incorrect angualtion for working dog- Flaw



    TheVictorian periodformally begins in 1837 (the yearVictoriabecame Queen) and ends in 1901 (the year of her death) - NOTE - the first Doberman standard was not written til 1921 so had nothing to do with the Victorian era

    Irelavent- I was talking about the obsession with standards being started by the Victorians (or in the victorian era) FOR DOG SHOWS a place to SHOW YOUR DOG

    The standard does not cause blindness that ruins health. The standard implies vigerous health - but you can't measure it or pridict the future health - Just as I would say your obession and misunderstanding of the standard blinds you to the ppoint of making an irrational statement that ruining health is deliberate - that is not a reational thought process at all.

    It can imply it all day long, it is a fact that people generally pay more attention to getting a doberman that looks like the standard.




    The Doberman standard is praised as one of the very best written standards that exist. It is clear, concise and very descriptive. If people can't follow what is written how would making it looser improve anything??? Just what people do you think would know more than the people who were actually working in the field and developing the breed???

    You have completely missed my point clearly. I am not talking about people writing a standard to aim for I am talking about a standard naturally developing and then being written. It has been done arse backwards. In fact the original standard was just fine, it's the additions and changes which suck. My whole point is not about the wording of the standard, it's about peoples greed/obsession with producing the perfect doberman. The judge cannot look into the dog and declare it's health, the judge can only (subjectively) comment and rate the physical appearance of the dog.




    I have asked this before but I believe your two Dobermans are under 3 years of age - is that right??? If you have decided to leave the breed what are your plans for those inferior Dobermans???

    What has that got to do with you?
    You wanna buy them? you might have a chance at getting an IPO title with them, ROFL. You can check them out on youtube if you like.


    As far as the obsession with the victorian era - that is when dog shows started late 1800's and that is when the registeries started so they had to have standards to follow. In the past like the saluki's pekingese etc the older breeds people had guarded very closely the desired traits and talked among themselves as they worked to preserve features, functions and looks of certain dogs. The modern day standards derived from these early descriptions of the breeds. As new breed began to emerge they knew the need for standards., exactly my point, the standards were a natural progression for those breeds but not for the doberman, not enough time was left for the breed to develop naturally.

    On health: from the DPCA standard: http://dpca.org/breed/breed_standard.htm
    GENERAL APPEARANCE
    The appearance is that of a dog of medium size, with a body that is square. Compactly built, muscular and powerful, for great endurance and speed. Elegant in appearance, of proud carriage, reflecting great nobility and temperament. Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient.

    GAIT
    Free, balanced and vigorous, with good reach in the forequarters and good driving power in the hindquarters. When trotting, there is strong rear-action drive. Each rear leg moves in line with the foreleg on the same side. Rear and front legs are thrown neither in nor out. Back remains strong and firm. When moving at a fast trot, a properly built dog will single-track.
    Notice how many of the words used are considered signs of good health which is about all you can do with any certainty - Muscular - powerful - endurance speed - energetic, alert all depict signs of a healthy dog as far as anyone can tell.

    FCI standard: http://www.dobermann-review.com/info_library/Dobermann_Standard/FCI_Dobermann_Standard.php

    General Appearance
    The Dobermann is a medium sized, powerful and muscularly built dog. Thanks to the elegant lines of its body and its proud expression of determination, this dog conforms to the ideal figure of a dog.

    Gait
    The gait is very important for the type of work that the dog is destined to do as well as for the morphological evaluation. The movement is elastic, elegant, agile, free and covers ground easily. The front limbs bounce forward while the hindlimbs give the necessary push to make a vigorous step. While trotting, one of the front limbs goes forward simultaneously with one of the hindlimbs from the opposite side. During the movement, the back the ligament and the joints, are firm.

    So don't think there was much twisting of words.

    Whats the point in quoting the standard to me I know it perfectly well, both AKC and FCI.


    You are completely missing my point, so I'll leave it at that.
     
  18. adhahn

    adhahn Notable member

    If I understand Matt correctly, I agree with the basics of what he’s stating about the Conformation standard being a separate issue from the Temperament standard.



    The initial conformation is more or less happenstance as a result of creating a working dog into a ‘breed’. Someone (or a group of people) then decides to ‘standardize’ this or that aspect of the dogs looks. What started out as a general look or conformation where form followed function, Conformation enthusiasts go and turn that into very specific, narrow goal to breed for. Over time as the ‘standard’ evolves it may or may not represent what’s best, or even necessary, for the dogs function.



    Temperament and working ability should always be the primary goal behind breeding a working dog. In a perfect world the standards for Temperament and working ability would be fairly narrow and strict while the Conformation standard would be nothing more than a broad set of general guidelines.



    I can’t speak for Europe, but here in the USA it’s entirely upside down with much emphasis placed on strict adherent to a Conformation standard while only lip service is paid to Temperament/working ability/character.



    To people like myself, cropping & docking has less to do with a Conformation ‘standard’ and more to do with personal choice and the ability of the dog to do his job.



    Yes, cropping and docking does affect how well a Dobermann can perform his job. Obviously it makes no difference on how well the dog bites, how loud his bark is or how thick his nerves are. What cropping and docking does is give the Dobermann a scarier, historically recognizable appearance. That recognizable and frightening look (or conformation if you wish) serves as a deterrent.



    When it comes to a dog performing the job of personal protection, he better darn well have the nerves, temperament and training to back up his appearance, but if his looks alone deter crime then he did his job with minimal damage and liability.



    It is nonsense to argue that a floppy eared, long tailed Dobermann has the same deterrent value of a cropped and docked Dobermann. Therefore, while it makes no difference how well the dog can fight a bad guy, a C/D dog can do the overall, entire ‘job’ better.
     
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  19. adhahn

    adhahn Notable member

    There is an article on Dobermann's and the "Predatory Sequence" that gets referenced both here and on another Dobermann forum. I think the Dobermann community would be better served to stop referencing it. I am in no position to discredit the author so I'll conclude that perhaps the article doesn't convey his thoughts clearly.
     
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  20. Matt Vandart

    Matt Vandart Hot Topics Subscriber

    Two awesome posts right there!
    Yes you did understand correctly, thanks!
     

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