Eris - Adulthood anxiety & eCollar issues

[Ddski5]

Sure, I can reply to these!

-what are you doing to prevent her from getting amped up? You should have the ability to identify her tells and talk her down or completely move her out of the situation.

As soon as she sees anything - a person, a dog, a kid, a bike, a stroller, a scooter, a skateboard, etc. She goes off. The only option is to leave immediately or not go there in the first place. Right now, it's been to calmly keep moving to show that she can look to me as the leader and that I'll get her out of the situation safely. We don't linger in these places or make her face her fears. We direct her away from them, saying yes good girl! and get pats and such.

-are you previously identifying the catalyst and prepared for the escalation that’s oncoming? If not then that’s a major problem of you not controlling the stimulus and environment

Yes 100% of the time. We are constantly on high alert, head on a swivel. Its exhausting. We've been doing this for two years, so I know her tells instantly, and I know exactly what's coming. Not much you can do when on a hiking trail of course, aside from get off the trail and go away around. You can't ever 100% control your environment, I can only control myself and her. At the end of the day, a child can run up to her and I can put myself between them and try to leave, but there was nothing I could do to stop the child besides say hey stop, and try to disengage.

-Here comes the Spaniel, oh shit…where is Eris? What is she doing? She has eyes on the Spaniel- no no nope…Eris, you should be in a heel sit next to me, watching me the entire time until the spaniel passes. If not then we are up, backing out of the danger situation that is fixing to develop…

Eris is always in either a HEEL or a Down/STay. At the moment we were in a down/stay getting water. I had the leash firmly wrapped around one hand and ALSO my foot on the leash itself as additional restraint. She must ALWAYS be in some kind of control or command, always. Her eyes must be on me. But she looks away for one second, and it was just explosive aggression that Ive never seen before.

-are you training these things in a controlled environment? Starting in the less stimulating and slowly ramping up the stim/chaos according to her ability to be in control and adhere to obedience commands from you.

Yes, this is what we've been doing for the last 5 months daily.

-adhering and being obedient to basic commands is absolutely imperative. If she is not sitting on the first command or into a sit or down when walking away from you then you are not spending enough time daily on obedience commands. Don’t mean to sound harsh but hard core obedience training and adherence is how you control her in questionable situations and that takes a shitload of time in the yard everyday. everyday….

She always obeys on the first command and she never gets away with disobedience at all. We work with her multiple times a day ranging from 5 min to 30 minutes. Her obedience is flawless. Until it isn't, which is exactly why this was so shocking to us.

---

Hope that helps!

Yup. I get you. Sounds just like an asshat I use to have. lol. I may talk shit about old Rag but I can promise you that I loved him dearly and think/miss him every day. He was my boy and I was extremely proud of who he became.

Yup. Imho, you don’t have a sweet, understanding, look to you Doberman. You have a hard Doberman with a fierce attitude who needs a firm master and constant supervision. She is not going to be one of those Dobermans you can let out to gallivant around with no worries. I say this because I’ve had both ends of that spectrum. Looking back, there’s no way I was ever going to train Ragnar down into a calm understandable Freyja. He was his own beast, just a different Doberman.

I don’t think you are going to change who she is. With training and strong leadership you may be able to handle her but you are not gonna change her.

 

[Aaron56]

I don’t think you are going to change who she is. With training and strong leadership you may be able to handle her but you are not gonna change her.

Sometimes a change in ownership and 'training' ends up working out just fine.

 

[Aaron56]

Yeah... to be fair the only thing I specifically asked the trainers for was bomb-proof recall, and I thought the eCollar was supposed to be for that. When I got her back from the trainers though, I learned that the eCollar was used to correct everything. Not what I expected, and also I wasn't given a long term plan for how to use it. Like do we wean off of it? Do I stop using it or is this forever? What purpose does the eCollar serve a year from now, 3 years from now, etc? Next time I get a dog trained, I'll have a lot more questions for them, especially on the tools they use.

I don't use (or need) shock collars and am not having any problems with recall on my current pair.

That 'bomb-proof' recall you mentioned you can only get with time and testing.

You don't know for sure until there is that particular distraction that sets your particular dog off. It is not unusual to have a Doberman that gets really, really bent out of shape because an empty paper bag goes down your street...

 

[Ddski5]

Sometimes a change in ownership and 'training' ends up working out just fine.

Yes but if one has already bonded, spent thousands of $$$ and don’t have that available out?.?….and really wants to keep the pup.
1. You just have to lock it back down.
2. 5ft leash attached to your belt loop.
3. All meals given from hand rewarded for training.
4. No freelance free time without me
5. All good things come from me
6. Need to start thinking that if I cannot modify the behavior then I have to modify the environment.

Not much you can do when on a hiking trail of course, aside from get off the trail and go away around. You can't ever 100% control your environment, I can only control myself and her. At the end of the day, a child can run up to her and I can put myself between them and try to leave, but there was nothing I could do to stop the child besides say hey stop, and try to disengage.

I don’t agree with this…you must be 5 steps in front of Eris and everyone else…you must devise a successful strategy and environment and then amp up the challenges accordingly. For example, if she is not ready for pissy noisy children then don’t put her in that or a hiking trail- go to an absolutely secluded trail.
I don’t mean to keep harping on this but this is a sensitive topic for me because I was there and had zero clue what to do with a crazy amped Doberman that was kicking my ass.
I know the ECollar doesn’t seem to work for you but it was a life saver for me with Rag. Freyja does not need it at all…

 

[Ravenbird]

OK, so I'm reading your replies to me & @Ddski5 on our questions and you've stated that you are pretty much doing what we've suggested. Now I have another question.

As soon as she sees anything - a person, a dog, a kid, a bike, a stroller, a scooter, a skateboard, etc. She goes off. The only option is to leave immediately or not go there in the first place. Right now, it's been to calmly keep moving to show that she can look to me as the leader and that I'll get her out of the situation safely. We don't linger in these places or make her face her fears. We direct her away from them, saying yes good girl! and get pats and such.

What do you DO how do you CORRECT the aftermath of misbehavior? How do you tell her that her behavior of "going off" is what you don't want? I'm assuming going off is lunging and/or explosive barking.

I'm reading this as
1. She goes off
2 you lead her another direction
3. you stay calm and keep moving, rather than maker her face her fears
4. as you are leaving her fears behind, you pet reassuringly and sooth with voice like good girl & yes

But she looks away for one second, and it was just explosive aggression that Ive never seen before.

And when you got her back to you what did you do? Same as above routine? How do you tell her that the 3 - 5 seconds of explosive aggression was the problem?

She always obeys on the first command and she never gets away with disobedience at all. We work with her multiple times a day ranging from 5 min to 30 minutes. Her obedience is flawless. Until it isn't, which is exactly why this was so shocking to us.

When Asha was 2 this was pretty much where I was. Once the obedience was tight things became easier, but as you know it was exhausting and frustrating, but it was in this 2nd year that we had several "Come to Jesus Meetings", or what some might call shockingly harsh corrections. I never ever beat my dog, hit her or any other kind of physical punishment, but I did make it clear that in no uncertain terms her behavior invited some kind of immediate discomfort that followed it. I used an e-collar and when training in public I had the leash in one hand and the remote in the other. All the time. Being nice and not wanting to hurt her, my method was that explosive barking would earn a warning (vibrate) and if she didn't immediately stop it was followed by a stimulation. I learned that once the explosion started she was already in overdrive and I quit "asking" with a warning because this is too little, too late. I went straight to the stimulation and it was normally set on 30 - 40 and many times I had to crank it up, because I had let her get into drive before correction started. I've said before Asha was my best teacher, she taught me to correct with a warning if I caught her looking and then we could both avoid harsher outcomes. One time I was training with only a fur saver collar, doing serious proofing for a trial coming up and she exploded at a new dog in the class as it came by. Having no e-collar, no prong collar to pop, I got her cheeks in my hand put my face into hers and through clenched teeth said some kind of cursing about meeting her maker. I was mad, yes. I was a thread away from losing my temper, I was tired and exhausted from her behavior, I had been going to a club 3 hours away for almost a year the trial now coming up and still.this.shit. Guess what, game-changer. I could see it in her eyes. She looked at me with a little fear and a lot of respect. Her look was "I think I've f'd up". My problem was entirely to do with RESPECT. She acknowledged me, minded me during training, loved training sessions to show me she could do all the things, but there was very little respect. Obviously this shouldn't be done with every dog or even any dog. Many dogs would come up and bite you in the face so it's dangerous. I've never done it since, but I'm telling you this story for the impact of how l didn't even know for 2 years that my dog wasn't respecting me like I thought she was. This became a turning point in our relationship. She respected the e-coller and it helped her learn the exact moment of behavior that would get her into discomfort, so she learned self-control to avoid that discomfort, but looking back I realized she was respectful of the collar, but still not respecting the idea leaving behind her wayward behavior.

I was training to trial in a BH in which you do obedience, shaking the hand of the judge (stranger), do a routine of on and off leash heeling, sits, downs, recalls, figure 8 around 4 people, all while an unleashed dog is on a down-stay about 30 feet away. Then she had the down stay while I stood 20 feet away from her while another dog did their obedience. I was extremely determined to deal with this. She did pass, she was not quite 2 1/2 years old. She got through every bit of it to the very end when I had her on a down next to me while the judge read his critique of our performance. Outside the fence were 15 - 20 observers watching and listening and LOOKING at my dog. I could see she was staring back at them, getting really uncomfortable and just before the judge was through talking she couldn't stand it and did one big roar at the cluster of people, but she stayed in her down next to me. The judge made light of it "Now Asha, I was saying some pretty nice things about you here..." and everyone laughed. Link to my post about it here on DCF Ashas IGP Adventures

I wish I knew or had a video of Eris response on a 6 that made you determine that she couldn't tolerate that kind of pressure. You have a very hard dog and if anything they tend to blow through the e-collar numbers like it was nothing. Asha only squealed one time on a stimulation and it was on 78. For the umpteenth time, this is my dog and I did whatever it took to make her into a good citizen.

 

[Ravenbird]

Also, the other question is in one statement you call this "fear" and another you refer to it as "aggression". Indeed there can be fear and aggression together, but mostly that is a dog that is backed into a corner or being forced to comply. What I call barking backwards - they are acting fierce but backing up. Eris seems to be lunging forward in her incidents - toward the little dog, that's all aggression, no fear. Toward the child that was acting weird sounds like defensive barking "Stay away from my space, you're giving off weird vibes to me and I don't like it". But again, no fear. So I'm not sure I'm even reading your dog right. That's the thing about the dang internet. So again, trying to put questions out there to you, more for you to ask yourself, to see what might be happening and why your training is not working. Also not dismissing that she may be one of those dogs that is not a good fit for your household.

 

[Liminalist]

I agree 100% with all of the above, but there are still these outstanding issues:

1. How to guarantee the safety of my other dogs, cats, and the children that are frequently in and around my yard?
2. How is she going to ever be able to do what I got her to do if her personality is not suited for it? Would it not be better for her to go to someone whose lifestyle fits her needs better?

Again, we can go in circles and talk for hours about the minutiae of training on the trails or desensitization, counter conditioning, etc, sure I'm all for it, but that seems to be more of a side detail that addressing the root of the issue. Something is wrong in her day to day life that needs to be addressed first and foremost.

It would be very hard for me to describe a year's worth of observations. These are good questions, but I'd be writing a novel to try to convey something over text that is better seen and experienced over a period of time. I know it's a lot to ask, but you'll have to kinda take my word for that much. It's like trying to describe these tiny minute body language things that are so small, you know them in the hairs on the back of your neck before your eyes. You work with a dog so closely that you know their micromovements and emotions. And if you don't trust me, you can trust the trainers who have also been watching her and seeing the same thing. ANY kind of correction that causes pain or discomfort is a trigger for her, no matter how minor. I've just learned to identify her going into that state before there's a BIG reaction. I can see it when it's almost invisible because I know her so well. Her attacks/outbursts towards other dogs correlate to corrections that have some kind of pain involved, hence why we can't use that anymore.

I'll try to answer some of the direct questions in other replies, but I want to focus on my two questions above and solving that first and foremost.

 

[Liminalist]

Also, the other question is in one statement you call this "fear" and another you refer to it as "aggression". Indeed there can be fear and aggression together, but mostly that is a dog that is backed into a corner or being forced to comply. What I call barking backwards - they are acting fierce but backing up. Eris seems to be lunging forward in her incidents - toward the little dog, that's all aggression, no fear. Toward the child that was acting weird sounds like defensive barking "Stay away from my space, you're giving off weird vibes to me and I don't like it". But again, no fear. So I'm not sure I'm even reading your dog right. That's the thing about the dang internet. So again, trying to put questions out there to you, more for you to ask yourself, to see what might be happening and why your training is not working. Also not dismissing that she may be one of those dogs that is not a good fit for your household.

It's both. She started with being a bit of a nervous puppy, but that was it. Then she hit about 16 months old and started attacking my other dog. We worked for months on trying to identify the trigger for that and it turned out to be the eCollar. As soon as we stopped using the eCollar, her anxiety levels went down and she stopped attacking Byron. During this time though, her reactivity to other things was escalating fast. Going from being able to go on a walk with a little whining when we passed a dog, to flipping around on the leash, crying, if the dog touched her or came up to her, she'd bark or snap to make them go away (classic fear aggression). Also of note, when using the eCollar, she screwed up her commands a lot. She'd cycle them, shaking, tail tucked, whites of her eyes showing (on a measly 6-9 on the eCollar), running to the nearest person and cowering and shaking next to them. When we saw this massive and rapid decline over the course of a few months, we knew we had to seek out some help, hence the 2 current trainers.

One trainer said not to use the prong, as it was still a source of pain and she reacts badly to pain. The other wanted to try it, but either way, they were like, wow yeah no more eCollar. We don't know how it happened, but somehow she became horribly traumatized by it. It went really well for the last 2-ish months (see previous posts). Starting completely over, only walking in the front yard or the street. Keeping her places she was comfortable. When she showed no issues, we expanded her range a bit. Her commands were perfect again, no more cycling behaviors or signs of fear like she had with the eCollar, its like her obedience was perfect again. Started taking her to group classes that focused on desensitization for nervous dogs and she was doing really well, but I noticed her anxiety level in the house increasing to where it was months ago while she had the eCollar on, so I kinda kept that in the back of my mind, because I have to be on the lookout for another attack if so. We were at the point taking her to the town center near us where there were other dogs and it seemed like she was doing well enough to go back to hiking. We stuck to secluded trails with a wide path to give us space. This last trail was secluded for 90% of it, it was just this one area that had a damn parade of dogs for like...10 minutes maybe, but there were still fewer dogs/children/scooters than many of the other places we'd taken her in the last few months.

So hopefully you're seeing the picture. She has only exhibited fear aggression except for her attacking Byron in the house, which stopped when we discontinued the use of the eCollar. The attack at the park this last weekend was the first time she has EVER been the aggressor like that. It was completely new. That dog was no where near her and she jumped up and pounced like a lion, snarling. She's never done that. She's never even snarled before. Whenever she was fearful, it was like a crying/screaming sound and snapping her teeth. This was vicious.

That's my point is that with all the work we've been doing, I totally expect there to be good days and bad days. But from her to go from nervousness/fearfulness/ "stay away from me" barking when a dog gets close to her or being agitated by another reactive dog, to leaping out of a down/stay to bolt to a completely non-reactive dog moving in the opposite direction with intent to kill is a completely new level of aggression from her.

The only precedent for her being the instigator was her attacking Byron in the house/backyard, but her attacks on him were completely different looking. Instead of pouncing on him with snarling, it was more like she was crouched down and she'd go at his side, snapping at him with this higher pitched series of barks much closer to the "scream"-like sound she'd make when other dogs came up to her and she'd cower. But Byron, afraid for his life, would defend himself, and thus theyd be in full on battle at that point. Amazingly, as soon as we come out there and say "NO!" she'd break it off, run back to us and just wag her tail like nothing happened.

So it's not just aggression. She has exhibited both fear aggression AND aggression, but it's always looked VERY distinct in each instance. This recent one with the spaniel was the first time either of us have EVER seen her just bolt to a strange dog with intent. So what's next, yknow? If she tries that on Ellie, she'll kill her in a heartbeat.

 

[Liminalist]

ALso Edit to the above

I agree 100% with all of the above, but there are still these outstanding issues:

1. How to guarantee the safety of my other dogs, cats, and the children that are frequently in and around my yard?
2. How is she going to ever be able to do what I got her to do if her personality is not suited for it? Would it not be better for her to go to someone whose lifestyle fits her needs better?

Again, we can go in circles and talk for hours about the minutiae of training on the trails or desensitization, counter conditioning, etc, sure I'm all for it, but that seems to be more of a side detail that addressing the root of the issue. Something is wrong in her day to day life that needs to be addressed first and foremost.

It would be very hard for me to describe a year's worth of observations. These are good questions, but I'd be writing a novel to try to convey something over text that is better seen and experienced over a period of time. I know it's a lot to ask, but you'll have to kinda take my word for that much. It's like trying to describe these tiny minute body language things that are so small, you know them in the hairs on the back of your neck before your eyes. You work with a dog so closely that you know their micromovements and emotions. And if you don't trust me, you can trust the trainers who have also been watching her and seeing the same thing. ANY kind of correction that causes pain or discomfort is a trigger for her, no matter how minor. I've just learned to identify her going into that state before there's a BIG reaction. I can see it when it's almost invisible because I know her so well. Her attacks/outbursts towards other dogs correlate to corrections that have some kind of pain involved, hence why we can't use that anymore.

I'll try to answer some of the direct questions in other replies, but I want to focus on my two questions above and solving that first and foremost.

Addendum to this, as I can't edit.

The part about pain triggers is only theorized right now by the current trainers. It's something that a behaviorist could diagnose better. But yeah we're just trying to put the pieces together and figure out why she's going downhill so fast, why the training methods are not working, etc. It may be beyond what the trainers or the vets can do, so that's why I'm exploring as many options as I can, whether that's a new home environment or a behaviorist or meds or whatever it may be.

God I wish dogs could talk and just tell us what's wrong. =((((((

 

[Liminalist]

OK, so I'm reading your replies to me & @Ddski5 on our questions and you've stated that you are pretty much doing what we've suggested. Now I have another question.



What do you DO how do you CORRECT the aftermath of misbehavior? How do you tell her that her behavior of "going off" is what you don't want? I'm assuming going off is lunging and/or explosive barking.

I'm reading this as
1. She goes off
2 you lead her another direction
3. you stay calm and keep moving, rather than maker her face her fears
4. as you are leaving her fears behind, you pet reassuringly and sooth with voice like good girl & yes


And when you got her back to you what did you do? Same as above routine? How do you tell her that the 3 - 5 seconds of explosive aggression was the problem?


When Asha was 2 this was pretty much where I was. Once the obedience was tight things became easier, but as you know it was exhausting and frustrating, but it was in this 2nd year that we had several "Come to Jesus Meetings", or what some might call shockingly harsh corrections. I never ever beat my dog, hit her or any other kind of physical punishment, but I did make it clear that in no uncertain terms her behavior invited some kind of immediate discomfort that followed it. I used an e-collar and when training in public I had the leash in one hand and the remote in the other. All the time. Being nice and not wanting to hurt her, my method was that explosive barking would earn a warning (vibrate) and if she didn't immediately stop it was followed by a stimulation. I learned that once the explosion started she was already in overdrive and I quit "asking" with a warning because this is too little, too late. I went straight to the stimulation and it was normally set on 30 - 40 and many times I had to crank it up, because I had let her get into drive before correction started. I've said before Asha was my best teacher, she taught me to correct with a warning if I caught her looking and then we could both avoid harsher outcomes. One time I was training with only a fur saver collar, doing serious proofing for a trial coming up and she exploded at a new dog in the class as it came by. Having no e-collar, no prong collar to pop, I got her cheeks in my hand put my face into hers and through clenched teeth said some kind of cursing about meeting her maker. I was mad, yes. I was a thread away from losing my temper, I was tired and exhausted from her behavior, I had been going to a club 3 hours away for almost a year the trial now coming up and still.this.shit. Guess what, game-changer. I could see it in her eyes. She looked at me with a little fear and a lot of respect. Her look was "I think I've f'd up". My problem was entirely to do with RESPECT. She acknowledged me, minded me during training, loved training sessions to show me she could do all the things, but there was very little respect. Obviously this shouldn't be done with every dog or even any dog. Many dogs would come up and bite you in the face so it's dangerous. I've never done it since, but I'm telling you this story for the impact of how l didn't even know for 2 years that my dog wasn't respecting me like I thought she was. This became a turning point in our relationship. She respected the e-coller and it helped her learn the exact moment of behavior that would get her into discomfort, so she learned self-control to avoid that discomfort, but looking back I realized she was respectful of the collar, but still not respecting the idea leaving behind her wayward behavior.

I was training to trial in a BH in which you do obedience, shaking the hand of the judge (stranger), do a routine of on and off leash heeling, sits, downs, recalls, figure 8 around 4 people, all while an unleashed dog is on a down-stay about 30 feet away. Then she had the down stay while I stood 20 feet away from her while another dog did their obedience. I was extremely determined to deal with this. She did pass, she was not quite 2 1/2 years old. She got through every bit of it to the very end when I had her on a down next to me while the judge read his critique of our performance. Outside the fence were 15 - 20 observers watching and listening and LOOKING at my dog. I could see she was staring back at them, getting really uncomfortable and just before the judge was through talking she couldn't stand it and did one big roar at the cluster of people, but she stayed in her down next to me. The judge made light of it "Now Asha, I was saying some pretty nice things about you here..." and everyone laughed. Link to my post about it here on DCF Ashas IGP Adventures

I wish I knew or had a video of Eris response on a 6 that made you determine that she couldn't tolerate that kind of pressure. You have a very hard dog and if anything they tend to blow through the e-collar numbers like it was nothing. Asha only squealed one time on a stimulation and it was on 78. For the umpteenth time, this is my dog and I did whatever it took to make her into a good citizen.

This is what I was sort of trying to respond to above. That basically right now, we are theorizing that it's the corrections themselves causing this downward spiral. It feels like taking a gentler approach has been working the last few months, we thought there was improvement, but then this awful attack happened and her reactivity towards kids/scooters/etc is getting WORSE despite our efforts.

What I can say is still better than it used to be, is her recovery period after seeing a kid/dog/etc is better than it used to be. She is able to kinda forget about it and move on, where before it would take 10+ minutes for her to 'come down' off it. Now its like...idk.. 30 seconds?

So it's really hard to see what's getting better and what's getting worse. One trainer wants me to discontinue ANY corrections and go with positive only. But I don't think many people agree with that approach here. So idk, something to consider I guess.

 

[Two Dobes]

@Ravenbird I love how you explain Asha not being able to stand it and giving one big roar to the people I have been there too....and the greatest part of training in a club; when most people there know your struggles, and see the improvement, and are with you all the way. Judges for the most part, have seen just about everything, and I love when they make light of a situation where we get embarrased by our dogs

 

[Ravenbird]

I'm seeing a more clear picture now. Thank you for that background piece. Definitely sounds like something went wrong in the e-collar training and it's hard, if not impossible to erase that. I'm very empathetic to your situation.

As my very last sentence in my previous post states, I'm not dismissing that she isn't a good fit for you. It took me a really hard and difficult road to learn to understand my dog and there were days when I thought we'd never get there. I know that without hard corrections that were very clear and consistent I'd still be in the same boat. If you cannot use any correction on Eris that causes pain or discomfort then I don't think she will ever become a better dog and in fact she will probably become more and more overbearing. My thoughts about vets and meds for behavior modification are that you might make things better but you will still have the same dog with the same restrictions & management that you're doing now. Plus not being able to get a new puppy. And speaking of vets, how does she act with vet exams and the smell and noise of other dogs at a vet clinic? How have you/they restrained her for those experiences? Is just a non-event or is this another place where she is fear aggressive.

1. How to guarantee the safety of my other dogs, cats, and the children that are frequently in and around my yard?
2. How is she going to ever be able to do what I got her to do if her personality is not suited for it? Would it not be better for her to go to someone whose lifestyle fits her needs better?

1. keep her isolated, crate & rotate so she is never alone with the other dogs or cats, or on leash all the time she is in the same area with them. If she can't be corrected with any method that is meaningful enough to change her mind to not chase or bite that is the only answer: strict management.
2. it would be way better for you to give her up to a more suitable home if you feel that you have exhausted all your training methods, but what type of lifestyle would she fit into and still be able to use up her Doberman energy?

One trainer wants me to discontinue ANY corrections and go with positive only. But I don't think many people agree with that approach here. So idk, something to consider I guess.

My opinion only: With Eris' personality I'd say PP/FF will allow her to make bad decisions more often. The more they get to practice bad behavior with no consequences the more the tend to do them. When I was taking Asha to Star Puppy classes (5 months old or so, I can't remember) she would explode at people walking by and the teacher (PP/FF) wanted me to just "let her bark and then reward when she stopped". It was the beginning of my puppy learning that explosive viscous barking was never a bad thing, and in fact it was always followed by food after so in her mind she "made them move away", so double reward, no, Triple reward! 1.Barking is self rewarding in itself, 2.the person left, so it worked, 3.I fed her so she also must have pleased me! PP works great on many dogs, but rarely ever helps a dog with the problems Eris has.

 

[Ravenbird]

What I can say is still better than it used to be, is her recovery period after seeing a kid/dog/etc is better than it used to be. She is able to kinda forget about it and move on, where before it would take 10+ minutes for her to 'come down' off it. Now its like...idk.. 30 seconds?

So it's really hard to see what's getting better and what's getting worse

And if something IS working keep doing it! I cannot tell you that PP won't work for you, I can only say it would never work for me. My motto is train the dog in front of you, always. You are reaching out for help, for ideas and that counts for a lot. If you have to give up, don't beat yourself up over it, you tried.

If I may ask one more question - do you play with Eris? Like tug or throwing a ball? Something physical just the two of you, that includes running or jumping on you in a playful mode? Is she a "waggy" dog ever? where the tail wags so hard her whole rear end wags. I had a hard time finding a happy medium with my girl because if I invited active play she could easily spin out of control, not to hurt me but just too much, so then I'd have to teach her to get excited and crazy happy without knocking me over. This too was a challenge but we found way to interact in fun mode and I think it helped balance the seemingly endless corrections that had to be made daily.

 

[Liminalist]

SUPER GOOD NEWS!!!

I finally got a hold of her original trainers (and the breeders of her sire, they knew her mother as well), and they want her back IMMEDIATELY for 2 weeks to do a full assessment. They're going to take her while I'm on vacation which saves my ass.

They said it sounds like she's turning into her mother, who was a very anxious/reactive female. They worked with her in the past and agreed that Eris showed signs if hypersensitivity to pain stimulus so they think there probably is something going on there with the eCollar, so if that IS causing her problems, they'll use something else.

But omg what a relief. They are determined to get to the bottom of it and figure out what's best for her, whether that's a new regimen with me or a new home or whatever.

FFFF I'm so relieved to know she's got more support.

For what it's worth, they are also against medicating and have seen way more disasters than success stories. Just more data for anyone else curious about that topic.

I'll keep y'all updated with what I find out.

 

[Ravenbird]

That IS super good news! Please let us know how it goes! The more you told us the more head scratching I was doing. Truly happy you found these people and I would love tho hear a success story - and what it takes to turn her into the dog you always wanted!

 

[Ddski5]

I very much encourage you to come back afterwards and update us…it sure would be good to know what they assess and their mode of training for success.

Good luck and wish the best results for you.

 

[Liminalist]

I will definitely let you know exactly what they find out.

Right now they are suspecting she has a very high prey drive. I think someone here mentioned that might be the case. It might have been Ddski5 (sorry I don't know how to tag here). Combined with anxiety.

This is the whole line/breeding part I'll try to explain without sounding like Game of Thrones lol

Her trainers are the owners of her grandparents on her dad's side, and also have their own breeding program (we'll call them T&B). Originally, Eris' dam was going to be part of T&B's program, but they didnt end up proceeding with breeding her due to her poor temperament. The female was a neurotic reactive mess. That female was owned by someone else we'll call "D". D ended up eventually getting a male from T&B. That male went on to be bred with the neurotic female, and that's where we got Eris. Eris also had a sibling with a severe deformity too, so yknow, idk man. T&B maintains their biggest regret was ever selling one of their dogs to D b/c now their lines are linked, and they don't like D's program at all.

What they said on the phone was that it's sounding a LOT like Eris is maturing into being like her mom. The difference is, they breed their dogs for working drive and sporting. So they're wondering if she got a wombo combo of extremely intense drive from the sire and the neuroticism from the dam, which is going to make her atypically difficult, definitely not a good first-time doberman experience.

Her "aggression" may be coming from her insecurity and nerves, but her obsessiveness over chasing the cats, children, little dogs, etc sounds like high prey drive. Then us punishing her for engaging in this drive is confusing and frustrating her, so managing it is really hard. She may need to be put into some kind of activity that gives her an outlet, such as a sport or a full time job, and if that's the case, they will try to help find that outlet. They also confirmed they saw her be sensitive towards the ecollar, so when I explained the eCollar situation, they said that sometimes that does happen and it sucks, but understandable. She may have associated the eCollar sensation with other dogs, and it's led to the aggression (but its just our running theory).

Ultimately she might do better in a different environment, but they said the goal first is to get her good to come back home with me. IFFFF that's not a good option, they will help us figure out alternatives. We just don't know yet.

We all know she's a good dog, but they are in the boat that this is just her personality, and there's not going to be any changing her. What we might be able to do is manage it and/or find her a situation that lends better to her personality, but we cant change what kind of Dobie she is.

So that's all I got for now. All we can do is see how she is when I get her back. She will go to them on May 12th and I should get her back sometime after the 24th.

Thank you again for all the support, amazing questions, ideas, theories, stories, etc. It's why I came here in the first place.

 

[Ddski5]

I will definitely let you know exactly what they find out.

Right now they are suspecting she has a very high prey drive. I think someone here mentioned that might be the case. It might have been Ddski5 (sorry I don't know how to tag here). Combined with anxiety.

This is the whole line/breeding part I'll try to explain without sounding like Game of Thrones lol

Her trainers are the owners of her grandparents on her dad's side, and also have their own breeding program (we'll call them T&B). Originally, Eris' dam was going to be part of T&B's program, but they didnt end up proceeding with breeding her due to her poor temperament. The female was a neurotic reactive mess. That female was owned by someone else we'll call "D". D ended up eventually getting a male from T&B. That male went on to be bred with the neurotic female, and that's where we got Eris. Eris also had a sibling with a severe deformity too, so yknow, idk man. T&B maintains their biggest regret was ever selling one of their dogs to D b/c now their lines are linked, and they don't like D's program at all.

What they said on the phone was that it's sounding a LOT like Eris is maturing into being like her mom. The difference is, they breed their dogs for working drive and sporting. So they're wondering if she got a wombo combo of extremely intense drive from the sire and the neuroticism from the dam, which is going to make her atypically difficult, definitely not a good first-time doberman experience.

Her "aggression" may be coming from her insecurity and nerves, but her obsessiveness over chasing the cats, children, little dogs, etc sounds like high prey drive. Then us punishing her for engaging in this drive is confusing and frustrating her, so managing it is really hard. She may need to be put into some kind of activity that gives her an outlet, such as a sport or a full time job, and if that's the case, they will try to help find that outlet. They also confirmed they saw her be sensitive towards the ecollar, so when I explained the eCollar situation, they said that sometimes that does happen and it sucks, but understandable. She may have associated the eCollar sensation with other dogs, and it's led to the aggression (but its just our running theory).

Ultimately she might do better in a different environment, but they said the goal first is to get her good to come back home with me. IFFFF that's not a good option, they will help us figure out alternatives. We just don't know yet.

We all know she's a good dog, but they are in the boat that this is just her personality, and there's not going to be any changing her. What we might be able to do is manage it and/or find her a situation that lends better to her personality, but we cant change what kind of Dobie she is.

So that's all I got for now. All we can do is see how she is when I get her back. She will go to them on May 12th and I should get her back sometime after the 24th.

Thank you again for all the support, amazing questions, ideas, theories, stories, etc. It's why I came here in the first place.

Allottttt…..of good stuff in this post!
I like the mentality and thoughts of the folks you talked to.

 

[Aaron56]

I agree 100% with all of the above, but there are still these outstanding issues:

1. How to guarantee the safety of my other dogs, cats, and the children that are frequently in and around my yard?
2. How is she going to ever be able to do what I got her to do if her personality is not suited for it? Would it not be better for her to go to someone whose lifestyle fits her needs better?

My kids (back when they were around 10 and 12 or so) were outside playing in the yard and I took Mojo out for a pee break.

As the dog and I got up to the front part of the house where we could see most of the yard really well I spotted one of my sons standing up from behind a bush while wearing a ski mask. (kids were playing a goofy good guy / bad guy game and the 'bad guy' was the one with the ski mast on in the middle of summer)

Mojo turned into a fur missile once she saw that 'stranger' in the ski mask and bolted in that direction in full tilt growly, barkey, I am getting your ass mode...

The only thing that save that son from getting chomped was that he was taking the mask off as he was standing up and Mojo saw his face and recognized him just before getting to him.

That son saw first hand just how bad that girl wanted to tear him up as she was running in his direction and I is pretty sure he may have peed himself a little bit.

I explained to the son how she did did not recognize him at first because of the mask and he understood completely. That stuff got explained to BOTH sons that day...

Dog did nothing wrong at all and that behavior is to be expected from a Doberman.

I am 100% certain that if I was to take my current girls outside right now for an unleashed pee break and they saw some stranger with a mask step out from behind a bush on our property - They would be instantly running TOWARDS that stranger will ill intent.

Had a guy one time walk in the back door of my shop late at night on a weekend. NOT normal business hours at all. I was pretty deep into my work and had forgot to lock the back door after myself when I had got there. Was not a normal sort of time when customers or delivery people would be coming around. I had the stereo blasting and never heard the back door open. I looked up as I saw the Dober girls both charging for the back door at max speed in 'about to 'greet' that intruder mode'.

It was a guy from Phelps security that was there to patrol our parking lot. I asked him why he came inside uninvited and he claimed he was just checking for a possible break in because of the lights being on late at night.

He had to 'check' a business out when his job was the parking lot (that is what those idiots got paid for) because he saw the lights were on and loud music was being blasted inside while lots of tools were also running...

I did ask him what sort of criminal turns on all the lights and starts blasting the stereo. He had no answer.


Those girls 'heard' that sound that the back door made even though I had the stereo blasting and tools running and responded instantly.

The girls had him pinned in the corner by the door before he made it more than a few steps inside.

It was good that the guy did not try to run back out the door once he saw the girls coming to 'greet' him. Commercial bldg so the outside doors open outwards. Dogs knew how to work those doors...


You bought the wrong sort of dog for what you are wanting your dog to do.


Not saying you can't train it to do whatever but you still bought the wrong sort of dog for what you are wanting your dog to do.

 

[Katyusharocket]

Originally, Eris' dam was going to be part of T&B's program, but they didnt end up proceeding with breeding her due to her poor temperament. The female was a neurotic reactive mess.

I never had the pleasure of meeting one of my dog's parents, but was quite close with the other one's parents and it is so useful to me to know which of her behaviors and quirks come from mom and just exactly when her father is showing.

I am so glad the original trainer is going to have her for 2 more weeks, maybe they can figure out how to teach you how to guide Eris. I know you have been pouring heart and soul into her, I hope for a high return on your investment.