Eris - Adulthood anxiety & eCollar issues

[Ddski5]

@Liminalist

The difference of two Dobermans:
A good hold stay…Freyja is always a good one who listens. Ragnar had 10x more training and he still would have been jumping around squealing like a silver back ape.
In the second picture Rag is holding but only because he knows the consequences of the ECollar. Across the road is a Canadian Goose- he hated geese. An ECollar is a great tool if used the correct way.

 

[BG1]

I will definitely let you know exactly what they find out.

Right now they are suspecting she has a very high prey drive. I think someone here mentioned that might be the case. It might have been Ddski5 (sorry I don't know how to tag here). Combined with anxiety.

This is the whole line/breeding part I'll try to explain without sounding like Game of Thrones lol

Her trainers are the owners of her grandparents on her dad's side, and also have their own breeding program (we'll call them T&B). Originally, Eris' dam was going to be part of T&B's program, but they didnt end up proceeding with breeding her due to her poor temperament. The female was a neurotic reactive mess. That female was owned by someone else we'll call "D". D ended up eventually getting a male from T&B. That male went on to be bred with the neurotic female, and that's where we got Eris. Eris also had a sibling with a severe deformity too, so yknow, idk man. T&B maintains their biggest regret was ever selling one of their dogs to D b/c now their lines are linked, and they don't like D's program at all.

What they said on the phone was that it's sounding a LOT like Eris is maturing into being like her mom. The difference is, they breed their dogs for working drive and sporting. So they're wondering if she got a wombo combo of extremely intense drive from the sire and the neuroticism from the dam, which is going to make her atypically difficult, definitely not a good first-time doberman experience.

Her "aggression" may be coming from her insecurity and nerves, but her obsessiveness over chasing the cats, children, little dogs, etc sounds like high prey drive. Then us punishing her for engaging in this drive is confusing and frustrating her, so managing it is really hard. She may need to be put into some kind of activity that gives her an outlet, such as a sport or a full time job, and if that's the case, they will try to help find that outlet. They also confirmed they saw her be sensitive towards the ecollar, so when I explained the eCollar situation, they said that sometimes that does happen and it sucks, but understandable. She may have associated the eCollar sensation with other dogs, and it's led to the aggression (but its just our running theory).

Ultimately she might do better in a different environment, but they said the goal first is to get her good to come back home with me. IFFFF that's not a good option, they will help us figure out alternatives. We just don't know yet.

We all know she's a good dog, but they are in the boat that this is just her personality, and there's not going to be any changing her. What we might be able to do is manage it and/or find her a situation that lends better to her personality, but we cant change what kind of Dobie she is.

So that's all I got for now. All we can do is see how she is when I get her back. She will go to them on May 12th and I should get her back sometime after the 24th.

Thank you again for all the support, amazing questions, ideas, theories, stories, etc. It's why I came here in the first place.

Good job sticking with this, trying your best.

If you haven't heard of Mike Ellis, check out his ecollar training, and explanations of how a dog can pickup "suspicious beliefs" or associations other than intended.

 

[Aaron56]

Across the road is a Canadian Goose- he hated geese.

You got to cook them properly for the dogs to learn to love them...

Except the feet... Those you can just clip and dispense!


Me personally, I can't stand duck meat. Even the smell of it cooking turns my tummy. Teriyaki sauce helps bigly with the smell...

 

[Aaron56]

The difference of two Dobermans:

Every single time I have raised a pair of Dobermans it has been more or less just like you described right there.

Finding a pair that behaves exactly the same is something I have never seen personally.

Does not matter if they are trained exactly the same or have the same parents or... They will never behave exactly the same and will always have unique and individual personalities.

 

[Socrates]

Yeah... to be fair the only thing I specifically asked the trainers for was bomb-proof recall, and I thought the eCollar was supposed to be for that. When I got her back from the trainers though, I learned that the eCollar was used to correct everything. Not what I expected, and also I wasn't given a long term plan for how to use it. Like do we wean off of it? Do I stop using it or is this forever? What purpose does the eCollar serve a year from now, 3 years from now, etc? Next time I get a dog trained, I'll have a lot more questions for them, especially on the tools they use.

It is a shame.

You have a likely completely normal Doberman (falls well within the 'normal' range of behavior for the breed) and you are wanting to medicate it into a different type of dog...

You could likely train her more and desesitize her to almost anything but it seems as if you are choosing to go the medication route instead.

I can't believe yoy said "You have a likely completely normal Doberman (falls well within the 'normal' range of behavior for the breed". Dobermans have same general charateristic, but like people Dobermans can have different peronalities, The good, bad and ugly. allmos all can be trained to be "Good Dogs" .

 

[Aaron56]

I can't believe yoy said "You have a likely completely normal Doberman (falls well within the 'normal' range of behavior for the breed". Dobermans have same general charateristic, but like people Dobermans can have different peronalities, The good, bad and ugly. allmos all can be trained to be "Good Dogs" .

If a person wants a dog that behaves like a Labrador - They should not buy a Doberman and try to train it to act like a Labrador.

Better to just buy the Labrador to begin with..

 

[Ddski5]

Dobermans have same general charateristic, but like people Dobermans can have different peronalities, The good, bad and ugly. allmos all can be trained to be "Good Dogs" .

This is a true statement.

If a person wants a dog that behaves like a Labrador - They should not buy a Doberman and try to train it to act like a Labrador.

Better to just buy the Labrador to begin with..

This is also a very true statement…..

My big concern is when folks try to train a hard Doberman into a softer more forgiving Doberman. You just about have to break their will and character to do this. A lion can’t help itself, it truly has to be a lion.

 

[Aaron56]

My big concern is when folks try to train a hard Doberman into a softer more forgiving Doberman. You just about have to break their will and character to do this. A lion can’t help itself, it truly has to be a lion.

For the win you just nailed it...

 

[strykerdobe]

Just an update!

It's been about a month since we stopped using the eCollar for anything (put it away) and started incorporating new home/training habits., and I've seen a marked improvement on all fronts.

The main improvement is she seems far far more relaxed in the house, not like she's constantly on high alert. I've even started letting her and Byron be around each other and letting them play as long as it remains relaxed play and not rowdy/biting/chasing play, because she sometimes gets too into it and plays too rough (which might be where some of the conflict started between them). There has not been another fighting incident since we stopped using the eCollar, but we are still monitoring them whenever they are together. This is still a really good sign though.

I've also started using Open Farm Calming Supplement with her breakfast or during the day if she seems stressed (I like this one b/c it has Valerian, Chamomile, L-theanine, and L-Tryptophan in it) as well as Earth Animal's Emotional Balance tincture at dinner (Valerian, Skullcap, Chamomile, Passionflower). I'm not sure if I believe in all the woo-woo of it, but I've had luck with Valerian and Chamomile in the past, so I figured it was worth trying. I have no idea if it is, but she seems so much more relaxed and didn't spook at the recent storms either. (disclaimer - always read the instructions on stuff like this)

We had taken away all the toys in the house when we were trying to determine if the toys were a factor in her attacking Byron, but quickly it was clear she has no resource guarding behavior at all, so we gave all the toys back which made her very happy. She loves toys we can stuff with snacks or puzzles and will dig her favorites out of the bin and bring it to us when she wants it (So freaking cute).

I also have been giving her the option to sleep in her crate or sleep with me or sleep in the bedroom. Dogs in the past I've lived with who had anxiety saw huge improvements in their mood for the whole day whenever I gave them agency to choose where they want to sleep at night. Lately, she's wanted to sleep with me (still chooses her crate sometimes), and I've noticed in the morning her crazy house zoomie insanity is far less. She just wants to hangout and cuddle mostly.

I also went back to being diligent about incorporating fresh pre-cooked food and small amounts of raw supplements into her diet. Sometimes diet alone can impact behavior, and I'd been being a bit lazy about preparing her meals lately.

The last change is her training regimen. I'm taking her out on a 15' lead so she still feels Off Leash even though I'm not going to do that right now with her acting this way. I'm basically just doing the thing we normally do, but instead of going somewhere completely foreign, I'm working with her in the yard and working my way up and down the neighborhood street until we find the limit to where I start to see the anxiety building. Basically starting somewhere she's comfortable and expanding the radius until hopefully, we can do the whole street, then add another street, etc etc. Just taking it slow. I'm also using treats, too, but sparingly for when I really want to capture the perfect behavior.

That's my update! Honestly, I can't believe the change I've seen in a month. We are far from being in a good place, but the overall energy in the house seems lower, less tense, and she's been incredibly cuddly (she was NEVER cuddly before). It's like a whole new dog honestly.

I hope sharing these updates might help someone else dealing with the same setbacks. =)

CBD oils are good for calming besides other things. But not all are created equal. Some ones I have used are Pet Releaf and Charlotte's Web

 

[Ddski5]

This is a true statement.


This is also a very true statement…..

My big concern is when folks try to train a hard Doberman into a softer more forgiving Doberman. You just about have to break their will and character to do this. A lion can’t help itself, it truly has to be a lion.

You know…I say this but:

A new Doberman owner does not really find this out until prob 9 months to a year. So before that, they have suffered through the DoberShark phase, posted ears, tolerated the DoberTeen phase and spent soo much energy, time and attention in doing the right thing that no wonder they do not want give in. And, don’t forget the bond that’s been established…working that hard on something you’ve dreamed of, establishing that relationship- that was me with my first one.

 

[Aaron56]

- that was me with my first one.

I learned everything I needed to know about the breed way before I ever decided to bring one into my home.

A metric crap ton of hours spent doing my homework about the breed...

I watched the Doberman Gang movie at least 4 times, EVERY single episode of Magnum PI with 'the lads' in it AND all of the Resident Evil Dober stuff including the behind the scenes stuff with the lady that owns / trains those dogs!

I knew full well what sort of behavior to expect from my new 'buddies'.

 

[BG1]

"Metric crap ton"

 

[JanS]

I learned everything I needed to know about the breed way before I ever decided to bring one into my home.

I've had the breed for close to two decades and I will never know everything, which is why we're here to keep learning.

 

[Aaron56]

"Metric crap ton"

I've had the breed for close to two decades and I will never know everything, which is why we're here to keep learning.

I kindof figured that when I cited TV show garbage as my source of info that most people would know I was making a joke there...

( I actually sorta believed (for a good while) that one scene from Magnum PI where Magnum sent the dogs packing with a fire extinguisher.)

Wasted a lot of money sticking them things everywhere thinking that if a day ever came and the girls decided to turn on me and try to chew my face off that I could just grab the fire extinguisher that is 'hopefully' nearby and fend them off with ease.

TV stuff not real...