Expected Breeding Values tools- any insight

[JanS]

I think we covered this here, that WAE, WAC, ATT are all ideally done when closer to maturity?
And "with no prep or training".

I know for ATT they have to be at least a year old and it is a no prep or training test. Obviously they should be trained to walk nicely on a flat collar but as for practicing different scenarios, it should come from their natural temperament and the way they react and recover.

 

[Ravenbird]

Well, I meant to be positive without being too picky...there were a couple ROMs iirc, but yes, I agree, could be more. Look at @Kansadobe wins in UDC multiple years a few years back as a better example.

WAE is just show up and pass if you can. I think we covered this here, that WAE, WAC, ATT are all ideally done when closer to maturity?
And "with no prep or training".

Show dogs actually have an advantage as they get out and get socialized early to some extent by being around people dogs, handlers, judges...so one would expect more calm than another, amiright?

At least there are some LCs in Penney's line. They are getting her a Therapy dog title before breeding which is good PR for the breed, in the general public that may still view dobes as dangerous devil dogs from the movies

And I mean no disrespect for Penny, and definitely nice longevity in her lines, it is just a clear example that most of the very best champion show dogs comes from other CH show dogs, and that's where the breeders fear venturing out of their pedigree comfort zone. It's true the other way around too: Very few CH show dogs in good working protection dogs and few working line breeders want to skip over to show dogs. So the lines stay separate, the looks are not going to be the same, but for the most part working line dogs are not out of standard.

Yes, WAE (E for evaluation/test) WAC (title awarded if passed = Working Abilities Certificate) and ATT I think have a minimum age, I'd have to look it up. A UDC event they have TT's for puppies, older puppy age group, and adults, and test for temperaments appropriate for the age. The show dogs getting out and about and touched by strangers and judges absolutely helps their social skills, and any ATT should be passed easily. The WAE has gunshot and other sharp noises and the boogy man threat - which is what should not rattle a Doberman temperament, but you may not expect a Yorkie to handle - thus it being a breed test for Dobermans only. The noises and stranger danger have to be addressed and the dog totally recovers from. I don't think there are any public stats on it, but I think most of the failures of the one I attended were the gunshot and the boogy man. And I'll be honest, at age 1 or 2 Asha was still not warm to any stranger and barely tolerated them touching her, but a lot of training and exposure she is neutral now. She absolutely would never make a therapy dog.

 

[BG1]

I agree with you up to a point. Even a CD is just basic manners, just as Fast Cat is basic prey drive and Trick Dog Novice is basic-basic obedience. But here we are with GCH dogs that don't even do that for fear of not being able to or being made fun of. That's the show-snob world and turns more people away from trying to train and have fun than it attracts. Every CD on a show dog could hook the owner on sports and same with Rally Novice or Fast Cat. The whole point of the original presentation is to get conformation people into doing/proving that their dogs (esp the working breeds!) and once they do a little they are apt to want to go further. It's truly a point-chasing mentality and training to higher titles can be addictive if you have the ways and means and a good dog. This is what I want to encourage. If we were to build on that original suggestion to to the 100-point dog, we could add only 2 or 3 points for novice levels and 5 - 10 points for intermediate or higher levels. You see the titles on my dog in my signature - a jack of all trades and master of none. I got a dog bred for IGP thinking (wrongly) that I could do obedience & tracking myself and go to club for protection. Well the closest club is almost 4 hours away, Covid came along and shut me down, I'm in the middle of nowhere and had some online training, but I was basically left in the dust. Long story short, I dabbled in learning new things, tested & trialed in what I could, passed everything fairly easily but as soon as the bar was lifted, I couldn't do much without a teacher. BH was my highlight and my dog still goes to a few bite training sessions with helpers, just because she and I both love it. It's f'n hard! I hand anyone who gets out and trials or tests under a non-partial judge a gold star for getting out there. I've seen how hard people work to get their dogs in the conformation ring. It's not my bag, but I know it's a lot of work and extremely hard to do and succeed at, esp as an owner/handler. I'm not saying you're wrong, these basic titles are (or should be) easy to obtain with little effort. That's the whole point. Get these show dogs and show people a whiff of training that's fairly easy and loads of fun for them AND the dog - and they'll be more likely to proceed to the next level. The bonus is, if they realize their GCH show dog doesn't have the nerve or the physical or the inborn talent to do what they see other "ugly" dogs doing with ease, they just may try breeding their "almost there" bitch to a dog that they admire in the sports field.

As long as the sports and the show divisions get wider and wider, the two will never be able to see eye to eye. The first time I ever saw a working lab, it was a puppy at our IGP club that was in the RH (SAR for Sport titles) training. I'd never seen a more active, drivey, happy puppy in my life. Just like a Mal without bitey or OCD tendencies. I had to ask what it was, I honestly had no idea. Working line lab. I was impressed and I had no idea they even existed. I just thought the plan above was soft enough that the show people might be swayed, but as soon as they are criticized or belittled for having gone out and done "just basics" they'll bale out.

Just know I agree with you on the facts, but do think that having novice titles and most of all, venturing out and having fun and thrills with your dog should be highly encouraged for everyone to just get out and try.

Just dropping in to share an example from lab world, of one famous US breeders effort to maintain the functional breed purpose in labs:

Kerrybrook Dual Purpose Labradors

kerrybrook.com

Good looks AND field performance.

H/t from a mod at a UK lab webforum