embark results show DCM1 and DCM2 Markers

[Renzo Red]

Can anyone tell me how to truly interpret this? I know what it says but should I worry? I lost a dobie to DCM at 9 years of age my heart sank when I saw this.

 

[JanS]

I personally wouldn't worry too much about a DNA test. While it can give you an idea, nothing can replace an echo and holter to get accurate results.

 

[BGpa]

What @JanS said.
Correlation is not causation on DCM markers.
We really dont know how it works but lots of science is being done, in genetics.

Responsible breeders start doing the actual physical tests that show early symptoms or indicators: echo and holter at 2, and every year after.

If you are "only a pet owner" but want peace of mind for a heads up on first signs, or ideally a "clear"
then you can realistically plan to do so at age 3, seems to be the latest consensus.

The very experienced cardio dr I got via a referral to the cardio clinic, from my Vet -

said it "would be reasonable to do echo/holter on a pet every other year if no symptoms, maybe addd the NT-probnp blood test in off years as an addition to auscultation" by experienced vet.

Canine NT-proBNP | Heart Disease in Dogs Diagnosis | Bionote USA

Bionote's Vcheck Canine NT-proBNP test is a biomarker for the diagnosis of heart failure. Learn how you can diagnose your patients in-clinic and sooner with Vcheck.

www.bionote.com

There is a lot of discussion on DCM here and elsewhere if you search. I like the DPCA annual seminars hosted for breeders with scientist-vets giving "best practices" guidance.

Here is "how to create you DCM health plan"

 

[GennyB]

I personally would look at your dog's pedigree and the COD's of his ancestors before putting any merrit in an DNA test. Unfortunately we still don't enough about the disease or the meaning of the 4 markers they have found so far.

EDIT: I just remembered he's a rescue. Do you know anything about his pedigree?

 

[Renzo Red]

What @JanS said.
Correlation is not causation on DCM markers.
We really dont know how it works but lots of science is being done, in genetics.

Responsible breeders start doing the actual physical tests that show early symptoms or indicators: echo and holter at 2, and every year after.

If you are "only a pet owner" but want peace of mind for a heads up on first signs, or ideally a "clear"
then you can realistically plan to do so at age 3, seems to be the latest consensus.

The very experienced cardio dr I got via a referral to the cardio clinic, from my Vet -

said it "would be reasonable to do echo/holter on a pet every other year if no symptoms, maybe addd the NT-probnp blood test in off years as an addition to auscultation" by experienced vet.

Canine NT-proBNP | Heart Disease in Dogs Diagnosis | Bionote USA

Bionote's Vcheck Canine NT-proBNP test is a biomarker for the diagnosis of heart failure. Learn how you can diagnose your patients in-clinic and sooner with Vcheck.

www.bionote.com

There is a lot of discussion on DCM here and elsewhere if you search. I like the DPCA annual seminars hosted for breeders with scientist-vets giving "best practices" guidance.

Here is "how to create you DCM health plan"

this is great info thank you

 

[Renzo Red]

I personally would look at your dog's pedigree and the COD's of his ancestors before putting any merrit in an DNA test. Unfortunately we still don't enough about the disease or the meaning of the 4 markers they have found so far.

EDIT: I just remembered he's a rescue. Do you know anything about his pedigree?

no unfortunately I don't. Are there supplements you would recommend to start? fish oils , coq10?

 

[BGpa]

this is great info thank you

You're welcome!
PS: on the proBNP blood test, the science on this physical test as "early warning on heart problems" is advancing, so there is good news always ahead, as we learn more:

Evaluation of a high‐sensitivity cardiac troponin I assay compared to a first‐generation cardiac troponin I assay in Doberman Pinschers with and without dilated cardiomyopathy - PMC

Echocardiography and 24‐hour ECG are the gold standard tests to diagnose dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) in Doberman Pinschers (DP), but myocardial damage might be detected earlier using a high‐sensitivity cardiac troponin I (hs‐cTnI) assay. To ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Found from here:

https://helka.helsinki.fi/discovery/search?vid=358UOH_INST:VU1&tab=DefaultSlotOrder&search_scope=MyInst_and_CI&mode=basic&displayMode=full&bulkSize=10&highlight=true&dum=true&query=any,contains,Doberman&displayField=all&pcAvailabiltyMode=true

If you have a dobe experienced vet, you can ask more. If not, ask your vet "who they go to professionally, for second opinions on dobes."

It never hurts to seek a second opinion.

 

[Ravenbird]

The easiest way to put my brain to ease about the markers is that in humans with hereditary DCM they have found I think upward of 30 - 40 markers. Dog research is lacking $$$ to do the same kind of intense DNA research and have thus far found 4 "related" markers, but they do not at this point have any relationship to actually getting the disease. Many dogs are clear of all 4 markers and get DCM anyway, and many dogs with copies never get heart disease. At this point these markers serve as "future knowledge" in what role they play regarding DCM. At this time only Wisdom tests for markers 3 & 4. I have heard there is a #5 marker in Europe but can't find that snippet of info again. Also of note the #'s 3 & 4 is much more common in Euro related dogs.

On the other hand, my over-thinking brain is never at ease about DCM even though my dog is clear on 1 & 2 . I have not gotten the Wisdom test, so don't know about 3 & 4, but her full sister was tested and is clear on all. That said, their sire died of sudden death before he turned 8, so I still find little comfort in the clear markers. And yes, Holter and Echo normal the year before he died.

 

[BGpa]

The easiest way to put my brain to ease about the markers is that in humans with hereditary DCM they have found I think upward of 30 - 40 markers. Dog research is lacking $$$ to do the same kind of intense DNA research and have thus far found 4 "related" markers, but they do not at this point have any relationship to actually getting the disease. Many dogs are clear of all 4 markers and get DCM anyway, and many dogs with copies never get heart disease. At this point these markers serve as "future knowledge" in what role they play regarding DCM. At this time only Wisdom tests for markers 3 & 4. I have heard there is a #5 marker in Europe but can't find that snippet of info again. Also of note the #'s 3 & 4 is much more common in Euro related dogs.

On the other hand, my over-thinking brain is never at ease about DCM even though my dog is clear on 1 & 2 . I have not gotten the Wisdom test, so don't know about 3 & 4, but her full sister was tested and is clear on all. That said, their sire died of sudden death before he turned 8, so I still find little comfort in the clear markers. And yes, Holter and Echo normal the year before he died.

This is my understanding as well.
And for my peace of mind, advance info on possible DCM on just "a BYB pet dobe"
I intend to do echos and holters every two years with bnp blood test and ascultstion by dobe experienced vet in the off years.

Experienced dobe folk know if you get early warning and diagnosis you can put them on heart meds to extend the dogs lifespan.

Other than that, just like us humans, keep them fit and trim. Bonnie helps me get my steps in and pointedly grumbles when I am running late...

The useful feature on Embark for a BYB or rescue with no pedigree, no back story on the parents lines is the:

"Relative Finder" feature that you *may* be able to get some inkling of upline by contacting other pet owners or their breeders if the other users of Embark share results.
In a couple of instances there are kennel names that infer Serbian "Altobello" or Russian breeders. Again, not absolute on DCM but by reputation perhaps more likely.

Every six months since testing at iirc 13 months I will sign in and see how many more dogs show up as siblings, cousins. and lesser related. Its interesting but not definitive.

Embark has a breeder level that has an optional add on for "Matchmaker" that I've not used and defer to breeders here. Perhaps it does something similar to Betterbred?

 

[JanS]

Embark has a breeder level that has an optional add on for "Matchmaker" that I've not used and defer to breeders here. Perhaps it does something similar to Betterbred?

I haven't looked too deep into it but I know it will give you some matchmaker predictions like COI. Elroy had a comparison done with a Euro female and that pairing would significantly drop the COI for their pups.

 

[Ravenbird]

Embark has a breeder level that has an optional add on for "Matchmaker" that I've not used and defer to breeders here. Perhaps it does something similar to Betterbred?

I know it will give you some matchmaker predictions like COI. Elroy had a comparison done with a Euro female and that pairing would significantly drop the COI for their pups.

Yes, I looked at that. There are many MANY BYB dogs on there. I matched Asha for lowest COI predictions a few years ago (never intending to breed, just seeing how it worked). There were literally Albinos on there. Fido's with descriptions of "so cute & cuddly". No titles of any kind. The higher the COI predictions, the more show and working dogs came up. Because Asha is more Euro and just a little American, she could get better COIs with some popular American CH's than with breeding to the working line dogs. Which is exactly what those studies said, breed to what is not in your pedigree. Again, most breeders are put off by this - they lose the show look they've worked so hard to get if they go Euro and the Working line breeders don't want to lose the high drive and boldness that they've worked so hard for. I understand that, and realize none of the serious breeders with a purpose will ever drop their purpose for future health.
@BGpa if you have Bonnie in the system you should play match maker with her - if they'll let you do that - just to see what comes up. I think you can use filters such as COI or CH or IGP etc to narrow your match. It's fun and you can certainly pass a lot of time when you should be doing more important things, but hey, no harm done, right?

 

[Two Dobes]

The problem with testing every other year; I had a female who was diagnosed, no symptoms, occult stage, and she did not tolerate the pimobendin. So I was trying all kinds of supplements without using the medication, and within 6 months she went into CHF. So in 'my' opinion, yearly is important. Early detection leads to longer life....sometimes over 2 years of good quality living.
And as far as supplements; I have read, and had our Clarke on CoQ10 200mg a day, L-Carnitine 1000 2 x a day, Taurine 1000 2 x a day and a good krill oil. The only thing the cardiologist recommended was the fish oil - 2000mg a day...but said the other supplements would not hurt. I believe sometimes they work with the heart pill...but just my opinion. And; nothing helps prevent sudden death

 

[BGpa]

Yes, I looked at that. There are many MANY BYB dogs on there. I matched Asha for lowest COI predictions a few years ago (never intending to breed, just seeing how it worked). There were literally Albinos on there. Fido's with descriptions of "so cute & cuddly". No titles of any kind. The higher the COI predictions, the more show and working dogs came up. Because Asha is more Euro and just a little American, she could get better COIs with some popular American CH's than with breeding to the working line dogs. Which is exactly what those studies said, breed to what is not in your pedigree. Again, most breeders are put off by this - they lose the show look they've worked so hard to get if they go Euro and the Working line breeders don't want to lose the high drive and boldness that they've worked so hard for. I understand that, and realize none of the serious breeders with a purpose will ever drop their purpose for future health.
@BGpa if you have Bonnie in the system you should play match maker with her - if they'll let you do that - just to see what comes up. I think you can use filters such as COI or CH or IGP etc to narrow your match. It's fun and you can certainly pass a lot of time when you should be doing more important things, but hey, no harm done, right?

Thanks @Ravenbird I somehow found a way from the Pet Owner version of the app to Breeder side with Matchmaker...its extra $ for that feature,
and becuz I am cheap and I did not want to take the chance to misrepresent BYB as pedigreed which is required,
so I flipped back to get an example of

Relative finder: which works just of genetic relatedness.

Maybe someone with breeding experience can look up the kennel names if interested and comment, on reputation of kennels as to DCM.

Working-dogs.com, Doberbase.ru or PedigreeDogs.com are good alternatives I read to Dobequest which is mostly US showdogs.

Speaking of important things...there is a devil dog giving me side eye

 

[JanS]

had our Clarke on CoQ10 200mg a day

Sort of OT but I am on statins and many people can't tolerate them at all, myself included but I have heard over and over that that the CoQ10 really helps.

 

[BGpa]

Sort of OT but I am on statins and many people can't tolerate them at all, myself included but I have heard over and over that that the CoQ10 really helps.

Me too and I'm convinced CoQ10 and a couple others made Covid just a bad cold for me at age 66, not vaxxed.

 

[GennyB]

Are there supplements you would recommend to start?

Absolutely! It's been a minute and I definitely can't remember the dosage. I have no doubt they are posted in the health section.
CoQ10, Taurine, Vit C, Sardine Anchovy Omega 3 fish oil....can't remember the brand.
I know I will remember more as I think about it. I'll be back!
It's important to get quality supplements. They definitely are not created equal.

 

[Renzo Red]

Absolutely! It's been a minute and I definitely can't remember the dosage. I have no doubt they are posted in the health section.
CoQ10, Taurine, Vit C, Sardine Anchovy Omega 3 fish oil....can't remember the brand.
I know I will remember more as I think about it. I'll be back!
It's important to get quality supplements. They definitely are not created equal.

thank you this is helpful

 

[Renzo Red]

The easiest way to put my brain to ease about the markers is that in humans with hereditary DCM they have found I think upward of 30 - 40 markers. Dog research is lacking $$$ to do the same kind of intense DNA research and have thus far found 4 "related" markers, but they do not at this point have any relationship to actually getting the disease. Many dogs are clear of all 4 markers and get DCM anyway, and many dogs with copies never get heart disease. At this point these markers serve as "future knowledge" in what role they play regarding DCM. At this time only Wisdom tests for markers 3 & 4. I have heard there is a #5 marker in Europe but can't find that snippet of info again. Also of note the #'s 3 & 4 is much more common in Euro related dogs.

On the other hand, my over-thinking brain is never at ease about DCM even though my dog is clear on 1 & 2 . I have not gotten the Wisdom test, so don't know about 3 & 4, but her full sister was tested and is clear on all. That said, their sire died of sudden death before he turned 8, so I still find little comfort in the clear markers. And yes, Holter and Echo normal the year before he died.

ugh so frustrating