Bullmastiffs

[Kaiser2016]

I'd do an outcross program to lessen the health problems (and mental problems like whining & overly velcro)

Mental problems OMG, that's what I call it when Kaiser's whining escalates to the kind of howling that sounds like we have a torture chamber in the house. I just thought it was too politically incorrect to call it that out in the open haha. Do you really think this is a mental issue? I have often thought that this cannot be normal, yet here we are My hb says that if time travel were possible, he'd go back to "find" that one Doberman that started the whining

 

[Ravenbird]

Seems it might be messy, though, in terms of oversight or lack thereof. It might be an uncertain thing to buy a "Doberman" with outcrossing involved. Should any sanctioning or controlling body be in charge? I don't know. Ideally, it would seem a way to help ensure records would be as accurate as possible.

Yes, it's really the biggest problem. AKC won't do it, and the purists would never go for it. Without oversight and some kind of strict control and a registry for all the offspring so that when you did get back to good type, you would have a complete record and pedigree. If you look at registered Appaloosa horses almost every one will have thoroughbreds and quarter horses in their pedigree within 4 or 5 generations. But they still have whatever it takes to be a registered Appy. I don't see it happening though, and it's kind of sad and scary that our breed is in such bad shape that it's the only long term real answer.

Also have to say I made a typo up there in my comment. The F1's are first generation - I typed in F2.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Yes, it's really the biggest problem. AKC won't do it, and the purists would never go for it. Without oversight and some kind of strict control and a registry for all the offspring so that when you did get back to good type, you would have a complete record and pedigree. If you look at registered Appaloosa horses almost every one will have thoroughbreds and quarter horses in their pedigree within 4 or 5 generations. But they still have whatever it takes to be a registered Appy. I don't see it happening though, and it's kind of sad and scary that our breed is in such bad shape that it's the only long term real answer.

Also have to say I made a typo up there in my comment. The F1's are first generation - I typed in F2.

In post #351, above, I suggest the idea of outcrossing to the Chinese Red Dog. It still seems to me like a good option.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I've known about this "Cromicles" website for a while now, but haven't really taken the time to look at it. Its star is the Cane Corso named Crom (SILVER GCH CASTLEGUARD RIDDLE OF STEEL DI SERAFINA, CGC) a nice big, strong looking Corso from Castleguard Cane Corso, which is ideally the Corso breeder at the top of my list despite the fact that they're all the way over in Colorado. Of course, Serafina Cane Corso is located way way closer to me, just like a couple hours away.

Anyway, if you want to check out Scene #31 "Just show em like a Doberman" you might be amused. I'm sure this vid, as well as the whole site will resonate with those of you who show in conformation.

https://cromicles.com/videos

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I've seen a few videos lately of this guy and his female Boerboel. I really like the look of this dog. Some Boerboels are just wonky, clunky ugly. This one seems better proportioned. It's almost like some Boerboels have more of the Bullmastiff influence. I also really like this dog's killer growling that she exhibits in these videos. Hear that on the other side of a door or fence and you'd be scared off sight-unseen!

I don't like, however, how this guy roughhouses with this dog. I just don't find it wise. He lets her bite on his hands etcetera. This is just too much dog with too much potential to cause damage – not that I advise playing like this with any dog, really; but what happens if something goes wrong and this guy finds himself in a bad situation. I'm reminded of cases in the news where one's own dog mauls them. If you've repeatedly and consistently taught your highly powerful dog that it's okay to chew on you in rough play... ...is that a very good idea?

Edit: I see the videos show up as "unavailable" on my screen. I also see that it gets worse: See this video of them letting this Boerboel nip at the daughter's feet. (Try copy/pasting the web addresses you see below into your browser)

youtube.com/watch?v=wk8tW3n_P0o

youtube.com/watch?v=K4JWPgfoZBI

 

[Lizbeli]

Oof I would have to agree. Way too much dog to let get away with things like the foot chasing. Dog looked like she was in a bit of a prey mode.

And the lady hitting sticks together to play? Why not play tug or throw a ball? Does seem like she is teasing this massive dog to try and get a response. But hey- I rough house with Jasper sometimes. Never with sticks or anything in my hands. Its all light fun and if he gets too excited he knows to stop when I tell him. I also don’t yell like prey and back off like I am scared of the dog. But who knows maybe I am wrong to rough house with a doberman lol.

Shes a pretty dog. Probably one of the better looking females I have seen. All too often when I look at Boerboel breeders O like their males but the females have weird conformation. Like their legs are too short and their backs are too long.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I've seen this breed / breeder in the past and written them off. Let's get this out of the way up front: This brings to mind two words: "Bad" and "Breeder." My aversion to the long cropped, rapidly wiggling tail on the Cane Corso and the Boerboel, and my strong attraction to nice short cropped ears, however, got me to look at this breed again.

This is a North American Mastiff, a breed that was produced by supposedly mixing seven Mastiff breeds. Just which seven seems to be a proprietary piece of information.

Males are supposed to be like 120 - 180 lbs. No mention is made of height, unfortunately, but one could make guesses.

Major misgivings:

They place, seemingly, ultimate importance on color. Maybe that's not completely fair. They had to get the breed to produce true to type structurally, and in one video I just watched from them, they say they had to nail the structure first (before focusing on color )

The price! Get this: We're talking from $3,000 to $10,000!! That said, I was told they are selling two unpapered (why?) solid color pups for $2500. So, solid color pups are less valuable to this breeder. Solid color is actually what I would want!

They have all the dogs tied out to trees. Now, I don't automatically and necessarily mind that – unlike a lot of people; but it does impart a sort of dirty, careless, unprofessional feel to the operation. Where else do they cut corners? Inbreeding perhaps??

No health testing to my knowledge. No talk of it at all.

In one video, the dog takes a dump and she keeps the camera on it the whole time. The dump is soft-serve. I would feel obligated as a breeder to him and haw and explain why the stool is so loose. I currently have a dog that has chronically loose stools and I do not want it again!

Some of these dogs' structure is not good to my eye – a big old hump of a hip/croup area. Their movement in some cases gives me pause. This was most noticeable to me in a video of some pups. One in particular, I actually question if it's got a real problem.

The tail, although I call out as a positive, seems too lightweight somehow – the half of it toward the tip seems to wag around kind of whispy and curls. I'd prefer a tail that seems more solid and hard. Yes, you can gather that the tail of a dog matters a lot to me. It communicates to bad guys.

One of the dogs is very cowhocked. This is called out as a fault in the breed standard, but it sure appears on this dog and is proudly displayed in videos, and I think it's one of their breeding females.

Positives:

Again, nice cropped ears and a full tail to keep it from being stupid wiggly.

Great size for what I want – I'd be almost certain to get a dog of about 130 - 150 lbs. That's nice and big. I figure if I don't have a dog that actually possesses good protection capability like a working Doberman, then I want size! With the Corso, I'd probably get a dog of at least 110-115 lbs., and maybe up to 130. With a Boerboel, I would be worried about getting a dog that is too heavy. I don't want a 165 - 190 to 200 lb. dog!

Intimidating, strong looks.

Supposedly a good guardian and good with kids. In the videos I've seen, I have actually been very pleasantly surprised with these dogs' alertness. I would not expect this alertness from a lot of the Mastiff breeds.

The pups and dogs that I've seen look active and playful.

The breeder is a closer drive to my house than Oji's was.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

One of the breeds that is in my top 5 – heck, top 3 – is the Tosa Inu. Superficial of me, but I don't apologize for it: I'd want one that had that nice characteristic big head and some, but not too much, of that profuse skin to the neck and head. I would not want what I see some of, which is a Tosa that looks like a large Rhodesian, or some hound dog.

Also superficial: I don't like how large the Tosa's ears are. The Bullmastiff's ears are smaller, and also tend to look smaller in proportion to their big heads. Of course, a Tosa should have a big head too; but the ears still are larger than I'd like. Ideally, I'd love to get a Tosa's ears cropped. That would look killer!

I like this guy's videos. In this one, his Tosa is 5 years old and as a male, is 170 pounds! That's actually heavier than I want! This dog could stand to lose some pounds though. When I see a big Tosa like this, I liken it to a Bullmastiff that is just taller and has a longer snout Those are both good qualities!

Unfortunately, Tosa breeders are very scarce. There was one in Canada called Tosa House, but they are at least temporarily not breeding. I have found one individual via a the f'book who breeds. They have a black male (awesome) and a fawn female. We will see what they do. My concern is that a Tosa would be too expensive due to it's being I guess legitimately rare.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

It was funny this morning.

I had dropped off the older daughter at school and had the younger one with me. I saw this woman across the street from the school with her daughters and a fairly large reddish colored dog with black muzzle and black around the eyes. I thought: That looks sort of like a Tosa Inu. The more I looked, the more I realized that it certainly could be one. Now, most likely if I asked the woman the answer would be that it was a rescue and she has never heard of a Tosa.

So with daughter in arm, I started to walk the direction she was walking. She crossed the street to my side but was pretty far ahead. She was out for an exercise walk and was going at an impressive clip. I have found from keeping up with my older that carrying my younger slows me down more than I think is should. I was moving at about the same speed as the woman and her Tosa-like dog, or maybe she was slowly pulling away.

She turns the corner ahead and goes out of sight. I get to the corner and the crossing guard starts to ready to help us cross the street. I say "We're not crossing. We're not crossing. I'm trying to catch that woman and ask what kind of dog that is." He says "Yeah, some kind of Mastiff."

The possibility is increasing that she is making a big loop back to the school and them home. I figure, well, this is good exercise and some more outdoor time for the little one!

She rounds another corner, which is our back route to the school and I now see she and another woman are walking in the roadway, which shaves off distance as it's slightly to the inside of a curve. So, girl still in arms, we walk and even run in the road trying to catch up to this speedy woman!

She turns left and heads toward the back of the school. When we make that turn, I am able to see that they indeed go into the back of the school property. Yep, a big loop. I could have simply stood still at the school for 10 minutes and met her.

By the time we go down the concrete steps and ascend the other set of steps she is out of sight. When we get around the building into the school yard, she is also out of sight. We hurry through the school property and to a high point and we don't see which way she went.

The woman is

So yeah. I'll let you all know if I see her walking this Tosa-like dog again and I get a chance to ask her about it. See, there are very very few Tosa breeders in the U.S. I figure if she happens to have a source I would love to check it out. I'd also like to get her experiences with owning the breed. As a bonus, I'd get to see how her dog acts when a strange man approaches them!

 

[MyBuddy]

The woman is

Haha, she probably thought you were a predator and was trying to lose you! After all, you were following her at every turn lol I hope you see her again so we can hear the end of the story.

 

[Lizbeli]

What a story! Tosa’s are very serious dogs in terms of temperament, if I remember correctly. Definitely would do a crap tom of research on whatever breeder you find. I looked into them just a tad, and was too worried about getting an unstable dog so I crossed them off my list.

I really hope you catch up to her and she is willing to talk to you. Ask if you can snap a photo of her dog and post it up here, I am curious!

Funny because just the other day I saw a woman in the distance walking a very large black dog, with a corso looking dock. She was way too far for me and the puppy to catch up but I really wanted to talk to her. I never see them around here.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Haha, she probably thought you were a predator and was trying to lose you! After all, you were following her at every turn lol I hope you see her again so we can hear the end of the story.

Ha! Love it. No, Greased Lightning never became aware of us – you know, me and my 2 1/2 year old parter in predation.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

What a story! Tosa’s are very serious dogs in terms of temperament, if I remember correctly. Definitely would do a crap tom of research on whatever breeder you find. I looked into them just a tad, and was too worried about getting an unstable dog so I crossed them off my list.

I really hope you catch up to her and she is willing to talk to you. Ask if you can snap a photo of her dog and post it up here, I am curious!

Funny because just the other day I saw a woman in the distance walking a very large black dog, with a corso looking dock. She was way too far for me and the puppy to catch up but I really wanted to talk to her. I never see them around here.

You know, even with Corsi hitting like 35 on the AKC list, and trending fast, I have only really seen one in this city so far!!

Dobermans seem to be more plentiful here than anywhere I've lived. At that, I see one maybe every few months. There is that Black C&D one whose owner lets him off leash in the large park nearby and she walks him there.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

What a story! Tosa’s are very serious dogs in terms of temperament, if I remember correctly. Definitely would do a crap tom of research on whatever breeder you find. I looked into them just a tad, and was too worried about getting an unstable dog so I crossed them off my list.

No wrong answer here, but: Would you feel more hesitant to have a Tosa than a Boerboel?

Perhaps I have been unwise in my thinking. I have safety concerns over having a Boerboel, and I've felt like a Tosa wouldn't be too dangerous.

Logically, though, the Boerboel being much more plentiful in numbers has had more opportunity to be watered down, and the rare Tosa hasn't so much. The Boerboel is a farm/utility/guard dog and the Tosa is a fighting dog.

Hmmm.

My opinion of the Fila Brasiliero has been that it's too dangerous (and it's too ugly, with the long hound-like ears); yet it seems to be more popular and prolific, in places other than Japan, than the Tosa.

 

[Lizbeli]

Would you feel more hesitant to have a Tosa than a Boerboel?

I would feel more comfortable with a Boerboel. However, the research I did was about four years ago and even in that time maybe things have changed. Weren’t they specifically bred for fighting?

I am not fond of Filas either. More due to the way they look. Too saggy in the neck area.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Okay, I'd like to find out the lines and dogs these Bullmastiffs are from. It seems they are the same people who have that video of the BM up on a table and tied back and being agitated. They look to be somewhere in Europe. This is the first I've ever seen of BMs performing bitework oriented dog sport or protection work and actually looking the part!! Note: The first comment below the vid is hilarious!! "So you're training him to steal purses?"

 

[Oh Little Oji]

This:

Unfortunately, in the comments, the dog's owner says the dog has a good temperament but bad health – allergies and joint issues. Dog owner is in Hungary. They say the kennel is Vallhala Hunter Kennel.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Okay, this is impressive to me! 13 weeks old BM and the obedience training is coming along as well as I would expect from a Doberman – heck maybe better, because this BM is much calmer than a Dobe would likely be. Man, I didn't know a BM was capable of this training!

 

[Rosa]

And there lies the difference between conformation lines and working lines. The Malinois that are breed for conformation are also sweethearts along with the Dobermans. Bullmastiffs are also very different between working and showlines.

I know this is an old statement, but do the Malinois ever lose their energy through conformation breeding? There is a Malinois that lives across the street from my uncle in the capital; he acts really tough, but I have been over there and petted him with no problem. Again, big bark, but I didn't experience any actual aggression. Now, they say he is lonely because his owner are gone most of the time.

 

[Rosa]

I continue to float around and land on the very small handful of islands that comprise my next-dog plan.

It's been Cane Corso for weeks now. I've found the type I like the looks of, and a breeder less than 2 hours away; but I know nothing of the temperament of their dogs and the breeder (who I've been in text contact with a few times) didn't follow through on my invitation to talk on the phone about temperament. He also seems much too willing and eager to sell pups.

So I'm looking for a breed that barks a lot less, and that has powerful respectable appearance and doesn't take half its lifespan to achieve it. I want a short coat, and I'd like cropped ears. Of course, great actual guarding ability is a must.

My mind has gone to: What about a Doberman not from working lines? Hopefully a nice big powerful intimidating looking one? That is the type of deterrent factor a Corso could get me.

My wife actually said something about looking for a Dobe not from working lines. Of course, my greatest fear lies on that Island – winding up with a wimp. My last two Dobes from working lines have delivered in the courage department.

There is actually a Dobe breeder whose mission and and beliefs about the breed I very much agree with. They believe in working ability, and are a thowback – believing in what the breed was intended to be in the earlier days. They also care about aesthetics. And, get this:Speaking of old-time, and working ability: Your pup comes with a medium crop! These are Euro Dobes by the way.

This is where I am sitting now, though I am still worried about having a barky, high strung, high exercise needs Dobe; but what're you gonna' do?

I will be honest that from my observation of the Euro Doberman, you can find many show lines that train in protection work (if you actually get from Europe it would be required to some degree)...have you ever looked into Pride of Russia? Di Altobello? Infinity Amoris? Sant Kreal?...say, you could always go for importing and see what happens...https://www.nobilisdomum.com.br/caes/ Now, the owner of this kennel does not breed for size. His females range between 65 and 75 lbs. The male is almost 90 lbs. They are working lines but you will notice that all but the IGP3 female have conformation titles. Price: R$ 5000 He does not crop or dock due to current restrictions in Brazil. As it is his hobby (and he does full health testings and really doesn't make any money off them), it is not worth the risk of what the officials decide is "cruel/abuse treatments." KILLI OD DVOU LVŮ :: Omniarquia Kennel These Dobes seem a little heavier and also heavy working lines. They can go up to R$ 6000 for a puppy. The breeder will crop and dock under certain circumstances.

Nobilis Domum has the daughter of Zulu and Zara currently showing in conformation. I expect as one of her brothers is doing IGP that he will get at least a BH with her before he breeds her.