Best way to introduce your Dobie to new guests and control the excitement at the door?

[lunathetuna97]

Hi all!

I was wondering if anyone with some experience with training proper guest etiquette could shine some light on our situation. We have a three year old Dobie named Luna and we had one bad instance where one of my fiance's friends came in for the first time wearing a hood. Long story short, we quickly discovered that strange men entering our home with hoods on is a big fat NO and we have not really had any issues since then.

However, Luna tends to be very neurotic when new people come in (or people in general) and we are struggling to find the best way to introduce her to new people. We've tried locking her upstairs in our bedroom when they first come in so they can settle and then letting her out, but she tends to come out at top speed and I think not being able to see who comes in puts her on edge. We've also tried putting her prong and leash on to control her from rushing the person and potentially scaring the crap out of them (imagine a 90lb Doberman coming at you full speed as soon as you walk into a room), but I think the leash actually created a negative association with the situation/person and had her more on edge than usual. Her crate is in the living room where the front door is, and we've never used the crate as a punishment, so I am not sure that's a good option either (she LOVES her crate and I would hate to ruin that on accident).

Someone in this group mentioned having new guests avoid making eye contact with her and basically pretending she does not exist until she has calmed down and initiated contact herself. This has been very helpful, but she is still over the top when people come in. To try and emphasize that the person coming in is a guest and not an intruder, we use the word "friend" with her a lot which she knows means someone we know, but I definitely notice that when people visit that she has only ever met once or twice, she gets that characteristic mohawk (piloerection) on her neck and back. I know that reaction can be due to excitement just as much as defensiveness or aggression, but it still worries me sometimes. We've also tried having her greet them outside, greeting them outside without her and then coming inside with her (that has helped sometimes), or taking her on a walk and then coming in with her when the guest is already in the house.

Any suggestions?

 

[JanS]

It sounds like you've taken all of the approaches I would if they act that way so it's a tough one. Maybe take her out on a leash and chit-chat with the guests out there until she figures out they are okay, then walk in quietly together.

 

[Kswoodssue]

I don’t think that asking her to remain in her cage for a while would be punishment. I think her cage is her safe place. Sometimes their protection instinct would better be described as being “on guard”. She is looking to guard you, her territory and her physical self. Treat her with a bully stick or a favorite chew treat while she is incarcerated. Take no chances when hackles are up. Good luck!

 

[Ravenbird]

Seems there was a long thread about this with a lot of input, but I searched and couldn't find it. Probably not using the right key words.

I have a dog with very strong defense of our space and was/is pretty wicked when company comes over to this day (she's 5). Doesn't matter if they've been over a dozen times, when they walk over or drive over she barks, gets hackles etc. First of all I recommend very clear obedience commands. Sit, stay, down, place. If all this is good, add distance, distractions and duration to each of those exercises. This should be done whether your dog is reactive or not, but when this is clean, you can control her when company comes. I use an e-collar and/or a prong because she's strong and strong willed. She doesn't bite, she just wants them to know how she feels. LOL. Not really funny, but I'm just saying I've worked on this for 5 years and I have control of her but she has never changed inside her brain. The very best thing for her, me and our company is telling your guests what to do. No Touch, No Talk, No Eye Contact. Act like there is no dog in the room. When they talk to you, they do not look at the dog! You guys sit around, converse, have a beer, whatever. You have your dog on a leash (until can work with the commands off leash with distractions) and have her sit or down next to your. Correct any growling or barking with a leash pop and a No, do not let her get out of the sit or down by your side.

Basically, dogs that are protective or suspicious of guests, are sent over the top by them looking at their face and/or reaching out with their hand or talking directly to them. If the guests completely ignore the dog pretty soon the threat level goes down and your dog might become curious and relieved that she no longer feels like she has to defend her space. This also works on overly friendly dogs that jump on guests and are annoyingly friendly. A person who ignores them is no fun and there are no pets or baby talk, so they give that up.

I searched hard for a protection bred dog and got what I asked for genetically, so I have some allowances that many pet owners shouldn't, but I also have spent hundreds of hours training and I am confident that she will never be out of control. I can have repairmen out and she puts on her nasty display ( I DO tell them NT, NT, NEC) and after a few minutes she's done and OK with them, I take the leash off but leave the e-collar on if they are complete strangers like a repairman.

This is a start for ideas, and just depends on how hard your Luna is, whether she will eventually settle into guests being OK or if it's going to be and issue every.single.time. But basically I recommend lots of obedience training, made fun with food or toys and always train your guests to ignore her until Luna is chill and wants to greet them in a friendly curious way on her own.

 

[LifeofRubie]

Sounds like you're going down the right path! Truly, guests ignoring when they arrive is also what we ask.

Now, there are people who visit and stay with us once a year that Rubie, the Dobe, has known her entire life. There are neighbors she's lived next to for 7 years now who she'll see in their yards several times a week and who will routinely pop over, particularly in the summer. She gets excited in both these situations but these people all know to ignore her and give her her space unless she comes up to them. Then it's more or less, slow and steady, almost absent minded, pats; no strong or extended eye contact if any at all, no face to face, no two hands around her head, no leaning over her, etc. When she's over it, she leaves the situation lol. If she is on a dog bed or on a the couch or has a toy, we (husband and I) are the only ones who will approach her to change the situation to accommodate or what have you.

If we're having a full house, both dogs go to boarding. If kids are over, dogs are crated (we don't have kids so they're not used the chaos that ensues lol).

My Lab is the total opposite. He will try to crawl into everyone's laps (also a habit we try to deter but he just LOVES people). We still ask that he is also ignored, more or less, upon entry, though.

Keep an eye on her in each situation and if you see signs of stress (whale eye, stiffening of her body, stress panting, or even escalating to a growl, etc.), immediately but calmly insert yourself into the situation or call her over. She might feel like she can't leave for some reason or another. It's about setting her up for success! When in doubt, just remove her from the situation and give her a safe space.

There is this strange mentality out there that dogs need to happily accept and excel in EVERY situation we throw at them in almost a robotic way (I'm guessing social media is at fault). If there are situations she's not happy in, that is not necessarily an indicator of you doing anything 'wrong,' it might just be her personality and preference. Come summer, you will see pictures of my Lab going to loud, busy, chaotic situations and getting positively smothered with affection. The Dobe can deal with the loud, busy, chaotic but the attention/affection part she does not appreciate and policing people is a rigorous task (constant vigilance!) so it's better for her to stay home, sometimes.

 

[Two Dobes]

Glory was way more suspicious when Clarke was alive, and would give people she was not familiar with the hard stare. She mellowed after he passed, being the only dog for a few months....now she is pretty good with everyone....EXCEPT; we had a contractor and his associate over here the other day, and both dogs are put in a room behind a gate, so they can see who comes in, but cannot bother anyone.
After 1/2 hour, and them wanting to meet the dogs (after showing us their photos of their rotties) I let them both out to visit. Falcon of course is a big goober, much like Clarke was in his greetings, and Glory wagged her nub a bit, as I gave them treats to give them both.
I always keep my eye on my dogs, and could see the man petting her under her chin, but staring at her, while talking to us - I couldn't even get Glory's name out of my mouth and she went off on this guy. She backs away and gives the roar. He knew right away what his mistake was, and apologized....she calmed back down and was fine with him after he just ignored her. That has not happened in a long time, so it was a great reminder to me that I need to remind NO staring at the dog.

 

[Ravenbird]

but staring at her, while talking to us

Seems to me if that's a trigger, it will always be a trigger. No matter how far along our training has come, I still have to tell people not to stare at my dog! Even when she's being friendly and acting completely accepting of them. Glad I'm not the only one!

 

[Liminalist]

My 2 cents:

1. If your dog loves their crate, I don't think crating them when guests come over will change that. Maybe give them a little treat for going inside and then ignore them while you have guests over. I frequently crate my dogs when guests are over just so we can have some peace and not be pestered. The trick for me was to always "jackpot" going in the crate when they didn't want to with DELICIOUS snacks (like ham or cheese or something).

2. Teaching a "place" command was vital for me. When someone arrives, Eris must go into a place. For added protection, you can tether them to the spot -- so her Place location is by a door, and we use the leash-under-door tethering trick. That way if she does pop up, she can't actually "succeed" in getting to the door. It's just a failsafe. But ideally, she won't get up if she's properly obeying the command. I think Place is super important, because they have to overcome their emotions and exhibit self restraint rather than getting to act out however they want.

 

[lunathetuna97]

Seems there was a long thread about this with a lot of input, but I searched and couldn't find it. Probably not using the right key words.

I have a dog with very strong defense of our space and was/is pretty wicked when company comes over to this day (she's 5). Doesn't matter if they've been over a dozen times, when they walk over or drive over she barks, gets hackles etc. First of all I recommend very clear obedience commands. Sit, stay, down, place. If all this is good, add distance, distractions and duration to each of those exercises. This should be done whether your dog is reactive or not, but when this is clean, you can control her when company comes. I use an e-collar and/or a prong because she's strong and strong willed. She doesn't bite, she just wants them to know how she feels. LOL. Not really funny, but I'm just saying I've worked on this for 5 years and I have control of her but she has never changed inside her brain. The very best thing for her, me and our company is telling your guests what to do. No Touch, No Talk, No Eye Contact. Act like there is no dog in the room. When they talk to you, they do not look at the dog! You guys sit around, converse, have a beer, whatever. You have your dog on a leash (until can work with the commands off leash with distractions) and have her sit or down next to your. Correct any growling or barking with a leash pop and a No, do not let her get out of the sit or down by your side.

Basically, dogs that are protective or suspicious of guests, are sent over the top by them looking at their face and/or reaching out with their hand or talking directly to them. If the guests completely ignore the dog pretty soon the threat level goes down and your dog might become curious and relieved that she no longer feels like she has to defend her space. This also works on overly friendly dogs that jump on guests and are annoyingly friendly. A person who ignores them is no fun and there are no pets or baby talk, so they give that up.

I searched hard for a protection bred dog and got what I asked for genetically, so I have some allowances that many pet owners shouldn't, but I also have spent hundreds of hours training and I am confident that she will never be out of control. I can have repairmen out and she puts on her nasty display ( I DO tell them NT, NT, NEC) and after a few minutes she's done and OK with them, I take the leash off but leave the e-collar on if they are complete strangers like a repairman.

This is a start for ideas, and just depends on how hard your Luna is, whether she will eventually settle into guests being OK or if it's going to be and issue every.single.time. But basically I recommend lots of obedience training, made fun with food or toys and always train your guests to ignore her until Luna is chill and wants to greet them in a friendly curious way on her own.

This is wonderful advice, thank you!

Yes, I totally agree about the not touching and not looking theory.

Between my posting on this thread and now, we had an incident with a friend who was coming to stay with us for a few days. I tried to do my due diligence and prepare for this arrival so we could get off on solid ground with him since he's a bigger guy and has a booming voice (all of Luna's FAVORITE things!). Unfortunately, I think I actually made things worse for her, but I did learn from it.

Here's how it unraveled: I took her out to the yard when they were a few minutes away, so she could run and expend some nervous energy. When they arrived (her dad was with the guy visiting, Chris), I let her observe from a distance. They got out of the car, talked, her dad came and said hi, and everything seemed generally low-stress. I had read online that everyone going in the house together (like a "pack") can help alleviate some of those nerves for dogs with territorial/protective instincts.

So that all went well, and we followed him inside and I could tell she was getting a little antsy due to all the commotion. So I kept her on her leash (with a prong collar as well) to keep her controlled while we all went inside. I told Chris to completely ignore her as if she weren't there. She was definitely a little antsy, but she seemed okay for the most part. It's abnormal for her to have a leash on inside, and I think it put her on edge a bit.

When things had calmed a bit, I let him toss her bits of boiled chicken (super high-value treat for her). I had seen online that this is a good way to positively reinforce strangers from a distance. This went well, but this is also where I messed up. I should have been the one to throw the chicken around him so she could come back to me after she ate it. So, she fell into this artificial state of being accepting of Chris because he was giving her chicken. He started asking her to do tricks, which she was willing to do, but only because she is SO food-motivated. So now, all of the things that should not be happening are happening: he's putting his attention on her, we're all looking at her, she's on a leash, it's very high pressure, etc. So as soon as he ran out of chicken and she realized she was really close to this big, strange guy that makes her nervous, she freaked. Luckily, I saw it happening and reined her in before anything happened.

After this happened, I took her to a legit trainer by us who specifically trains working breed dogs like Dobies, Mals, etc. We met him on his property and had a little meet and greet where we chatted. He was also a strange man, but a strange man used to dogs who didn't have to be told what to do. We went upstairs to a little loft area and I let her off her leash and let her sniff and she was a gem. She warmed up to him quickly, and at the end of our chat, she was backing into him so he would give her back scratches like the giant ham she is. He told me that she is not a remotely aggressive dog; she's a scared girl who takes her job as a bouncer too seriously. He was impressed with her obedience off-leash and said she was clearly very bonded to me (which she is - she's literally my child). He said she's learned that, when she's afraid of something, if she acts big and bad like that, the scary stimulus goes away. And he's 100% correct - when she acts like that, we remove her and I often take her upstairs with me alone, which is exactly what she wants. He also said he didn't recommend intense, super expensive training and instead showed me the Dogtra E-Collar to start using for basic obedience to make that stronger and to use in off-leash scenarios.

Fast forward to now: she really has not been "tested" yet as far as strange men in our home, but we have been working with her on neutrality out and about and have gradually been upping the intensity of that (quiet walks to busy farmer's market's now). It's worth noting she is an absolute angel 99% of the time - to the point people ask if she's a service dog! I don't let anyone pet her on leash out in public that she does not know, and have a strict no-leash greeting policy with any other dogs (other than dogs she already knows well). This works well for us and we have had no issues whatsoever. I have a very good friend from college who just moved super close to where we live and he's a white man (her least favorite genre of human) and he's agreed to work with me when he comes over, so I can kind of test the waters. We will see how that goes, but my current plan is this:

1. I am going to let him come to the door and knock or ring the doorbell like any other stranger might do. I want to be able to practice for the most realistic, real-life scenario I can.
2. I am going to put her on her leash + prong and keep her by my side as he comes in, as that is where she feels most comfortable.
3. I am going to greet him, shake his hand, and invite him to come inside. His instructions will be to completely ignore her no matter what. I will have him sit in the living room, across from me, and just chat with me in a calm, controlled manner. It will be important that he sits and makes himself small, as that is less intimidating.
4. While we chat, I will toss her bits of chicken she can reach on her leash. Not close enough to reach him physically, but away from me so she can begin to move about and relax.
5. Usually at this point, she will have calmed down a bit. The trainer said to look for behaviors that are not "guest-centered" aka choosing to lay down, get a bone to chew, suck on her pillow (she has a pillow she suckles on), etc. Once we see that, we can know she's relaxing a bit. If we get to this point, I will remove the leash and leave her E-collar on and continue to navigate from there.

Most of her issues are upon that initial high-energy meeting at the door and the subsequent getting situated in the living room. She's never had an issue with women, including strange women, so this issue is literally only for men. I just want to figure out what works so we can consistently employ it moving forward since I know the inconsistency with our approaches to strange men is always changing. I'd welcome any thoughts you have though!

 

[lunathetuna97]

My 2 cents:

1. If your dog loves their crate, I don't think crating them when guests come over will change that. Maybe give them a little treat for going inside and then ignore them while you have guests over. I frequently crate my dogs when guests are over just so we can have some peace and not be pestered. The trick for me was to always "jackpot" going in the crate when they didn't want to with DELICIOUS snacks (like ham or cheese or something).

2. Teaching a "place" command was vital for me. When someone arrives, Eris must go into a place. For added protection, you can tether them to the spot -- so her Place location is by a door, and we use the leash-under-door tethering trick. That way if she does pop up, she can't actually "succeed" in getting to the door. It's just a failsafe. But ideally, she won't get up if she's properly obeying the command. I think Place is super important, because they have to overcome their emotions and exhibit self restraint rather than getting to act out however they want.

I looked into tethering because her place command is super unreliable, but I have no idea what to tether her to in our home. She could easily pull our sectional with her if she wanted to, and I don't think the walls would make a good tether either? We looked into getting those dog gates so we could partition her somewhere where she can still SEE everything happening, but be contained in a space where nobody bugs her and she can feel safe, but the set up of our home makes it so that we'd need a GIANT dog gate and I worry she could just knock it down if she really wanted to. I want to be able to enjoy guests when they come over, so keeping her tethered to me the entire time isn't the most ideal set up, but that's what I've been doing for safety reasons.

 

[lunathetuna97]

Glory was way more suspicious when Clarke was alive, and would give people she was not familiar with the hard stare. She mellowed after he passed, being the only dog for a few months....now she is pretty good with everyone....EXCEPT; we had a contractor and his associate over here the other day, and both dogs are put in a room behind a gate, so they can see who comes in, but cannot bother anyone.
After 1/2 hour, and them wanting to meet the dogs (after showing us their photos of their rotties) I let them both out to visit. Falcon of course is a big goober, much like Clarke was in his greetings, and Glory wagged her nub a bit, as I gave them treats to give them both.
I always keep my eye on my dogs, and could see the man petting her under her chin, but staring at her, while talking to us - I couldn't even get Glory's name out of my mouth and she went off on this guy. She backs away and gives the roar. He knew right away what his mistake was, and apologized....she calmed back down and was fine with him after he just ignored her. That has not happened in a long time, so it was a great reminder to me that I need to remind NO staring at the dog.

The eye contact is a trigger for my girl as well! They treat it as a challenge. Luna will go from accepting to the "hard stare" and then I can visibly see her body stiffen right before she does the defensive bluff barking.

 

[lunathetuna97]

Sounds like you're going down the right path! Truly, guests ignoring when they arrive is also what we ask.

Now, there are people who visit and stay with us once a year that Rubie, the Dobe, has known her entire life. There are neighbors she's lived next to for 7 years now who she'll see in their yards several times a week and who will routinely pop over, particularly in the summer. She gets excited in both these situations but these people all know to ignore her and give her her space unless she comes up to them. Then it's more or less, slow and steady, almost absent minded, pats; no strong or extended eye contact if any at all, no face to face, no two hands around her head, no leaning over her, etc. When she's over it, she leaves the situation lol. If she is on a dog bed or on a the couch or has a toy, we (husband and I) are the only ones who will approach her to change the situation to accommodate or what have you.

If we're having a full house, both dogs go to boarding. If kids are over, dogs are crated (we don't have kids so they're not used the chaos that ensues lol).

My Lab is the total opposite. He will try to crawl into everyone's laps (also a habit we try to deter but he just LOVES people). We still ask that he is also ignored, more or less, upon entry, though.

Keep an eye on her in each situation and if you see signs of stress (whale eye, stiffening of her body, stress panting, or even escalating to a growl, etc.), immediately but calmly insert yourself into the situation or call her over. She might feel like she can't leave for some reason or another. It's about setting her up for success! When in doubt, just remove her from the situation and give her a safe space.

There is this strange mentality out there that dogs need to happily accept and excel in EVERY situation we throw at them in almost a robotic way (I'm guessing social media is at fault). If there are situations she's not happy in, that is not necessarily an indicator of you doing anything 'wrong,' it might just be her personality and preference. Come summer, you will see pictures of my Lab going to loud, busy, chaotic situations and getting positively smothered with affection. The Dobe can deal with the loud, busy, chaotic but the attention/affection part she does not appreciate and policing people is a rigorous task (constant vigilance!) so it's better for her to stay home, sometimes.

I agree 100%! I had to learn that not all dogs enjoy busy spaces with a lot of people, just like some humans don't. Luna is a very social girl who loves romping with other dogs and having guests over whom she knows and trusts, but she is a big chicken at the end of the day. I just want her to be able to remove herself from a situation she is uncomfortable with, rather than act out, and that's all about me teaching her that she has "outs". She doesn't have to like every person we have over or meet, she just has to be able to be neutral and choose to go elsewhere if she is uncomfortable. That's my main goal with the training with guests since she does not understand that she has options and that I have her back in all situations where she feels scared.

 

[Ravenbird]

Sounds like you found a good trainer who understands your dog. That's a big plus! Your introductions and training plans for future introductions sound good. Is your trainer close enough to be one of the guests? That would be ideal because he'd know how to act and even though Luna has met him, it's different when they come into her territory. He is correct: Defense barking is fear based. I think you're doing all the right things. I did not do "practice guests", I just told anyone who came over to ignore her, and then made my dog behave. She's fine with anyone now if they ignore her and even has some best friends that she likes to push to play (both men), but still barks like a fiend when they drive up or walk over.

Keep us posted on Lunas Learning! So glad to see your update!

 

[Ddski5]

After this happened, I took her to a legit trainer by us who specifically trains working breed dogs like Dobies, Mals, etc. We met him on his property and had a little meet and greet where we chatted. He was also a strange man, but a strange man used to dogs who didn't have to be told what to do. We went upstairs to a little loft area and I let her off her leash and let her sniff and she was a gem. She warmed up to him quickly, and at the end of our chat, she was backing into him so he would give her back scratches like the giant ham she is. He told me that she is not a remotely aggressive dog; she's a scared girl who takes her job as a bouncer too seriously. He was impressed with her obedience off-leash and said she was clearly very bonded to me (which she is - she's literally my child). He said she's learned that, when she's afraid of something, if she acts big and bad like that, the scary stimulus goes away. And he's 100% correct - when she acts like that, we remove her and I often take her upstairs with me alone, which is exactly what she wants. He also said he didn't recommend intense, super expensive training and instead showed me the Dogtra E-Collar to start using for basic obedience to make that stronger and to use in off-leash scenarios.

This is good stuff.

Keep working her obedience and discipline on leash and then offleash. Not only will it solidify her more but will give her more confidence in you to handle ALL situations- looking to you before she reacts.