Resource Guarding and Kids

[AaylaK]

Hi everyone! So we have run into some issues with our 2-year-old Doberman, Strider. Background: we have had him since he was 8 weeks old, growing up with both our kids; he is crate trained and has basic obedience. Around 1.5 years old, he was playing really rough, so we corrected the behavior with the dog and my son and did professional training with him this past summer. We usually hike, bike, or walk/run daily, and if not, he's
always in the car with me during the day for work. Recently he got onto the counter, and our eldest daughter (7) walked around the corner to see what he was doing. He growled and lunged, bit her on the arm near her face, and now my husband is pretty adamant about getting rid of the dog. Strider only ever has this issue with "stolen" food; he sits and waits when kids feed him. He has had no issues when we worked the last couple months having the kids lead him on leash with commands and we supervised with an electric collar.
Is this usually something that can be remedied safely? I do not want to have to have him in the crate all day, and I do not want the kids to grow up fearing big dogs.

 

[JanS]

Welcome from Minnesota!

I'm sure she startled him when he as doing something he shouldn't be and being that he was above her his snapping accidently wound up where it did. I guess a good place to start is to keep him off the counter and if he won't respect that, keep him out of the kitchen completely. I personally don't think it's grounds to get rid of him though.

 

[DD4MSpock]

Welcome from Tampa Bay, FL!

I would check with your Homeowners Insurance as well. Not that you'll file a liability claim against yourself, but some homeowner policies go by "bite history," as does mine. If the dog bites someone, they may have to go. Like I say, you won't file a claim against yourself. But, if you need to file a claim for the medical treatment of your daughter, that might be a bit of an issue.

In FL, most homeowner policies have "dangerous breed" lists. Any dog on that list is prohibited in the house, and the company won't write a policy (or they'll cancel an existing policy) if a dog on that list is found in the home. Of course, dobies are almost always on those lists.

Hope it works out for you. I wouldn't get rid of the dog either for only one incident. But if it happens again, of if the dog bites one of your daughter's friends or something, you may have a decision to make.

Again, welcome to the forum.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Welcome from Ohio!

This is unfortunate. Our last Doberman lashed out at our daughter who was about 1 year old at the time. He was laying on the floor in a sunbeam and our daughter toddled over toward him. He got up in a very quick, irritated manner and (I happened to be watching) snapped and put his jaws around her tiny forearm. Thank God, he did not bite down, and in fact, he did not even make contact; but his jaws engulfed her forearm for a split second. These dogs have precision. I absolutely thought about getting rid of him – at least I considered that fate for a few minutes. I know it's a hard thing, and so many people will look down on you for ever rehoming a dog, but any harm coming to one of my children is unthinkable. We did not get rid of him, and I told my daughter to never go near him again when he is in a sunbeam.

Dobermans, thankfully, rarely maul anyone. They usually deliver one bite. I am sorry your daughter received a bite. That is unacceptable and I understand your husband's position.

Can you avoid the situation? Can you prevent it from happening in the future? That may be key. Your daughter is only going to grow older and larger, that's the good news. Dogs naturally respect younger, smaller people less.

I would put up gates to keep your Dobe completely out of the kitchen. With each of my Dobes, I never had a food stealing problem, or a counter climbing problem. I know they are capable of being trained such that they won't do this. That said, I have never been in a remedial situation with a Dobe on this matter. I train them strictly from the start, so it has never arisen. My point is: We now have two dogs in our home and neither is a Dobe, or even a purebred working dog. They both are incapable of what Dobes are capable of in terms of training and behavior expectations. Our almost 3 y.o. dog continues to sniff the dining table and he has stolen food on at least two occasions. He is tall enough to do it. Our 6 month old puppy is terrible about this. We had no control over his life until about 4 months, as he is a rescue. I think he was completely untrained, and we don't know if he was separated too early from his litter. He has problems. He is a big food seeker and will steal and try to steal food. Last Frriday, we caught him with front paws on kitchen counter lapping up mashed potatoes from a tupperware. That, finally, was the straw that broke the camel's back and got my wife to agree to gating him out of the kitchen. Our older, bigger dog is simply trained to wait for permission before entering the kitchen, but if left alone and without it gated off, he will enter the kitchen.

So, I'd say prevent the triggering situation, and keep your girl working with him on basic training. Did you say you have her feed him? I would train your Dobe to do a sit-stay (issued by her) while she goes and gets his food and comes and sets it down. Then, she should properly release him from the stay so he can dig in. I would have your Dobe wait before entering and exiting through at least exterior doorways – wait until the humans pass through first, then he receives the release command to pass.I would not let him on any furniture, especially beds. I would not let your daughter lay or sit on the floor with your Dobe around. You don't want him physically above her level. Don't play tug games with him, and don't ever let him bite at her clothing or hair.

At the same time, if you have to rehome him, you will not receive judgement from me. Children are way more important than dogs.

I wish you success.

 

[Ravenbird]

As @Oh Little Oji said there are really only 2 good solutions and they both have to be implemented: 100% management, meaning the dog and child (children) are never alone together and spaces in the house which are not accessible to the dog. If food is the main issue, I'd gate off the kitchen and not allow the kids or adults to take food in other rooms unless you have the dog tethered to you or otherwise under complete control. The other is no-fail obedience training. You can make it fun training if you find the right instructor. Food & ball rewards for sits, downs, stays, leave-it, etc. It stimulates their mind, gets them engaged and looking to you for answers.

The 3rd solution is rehoming and not favorable. I will say right now, any dog of any breed that has bitten a child is difficult to re-home. The liability will follow you wherever he goes. Municipal shelters won't re-home due to liability. If there is any record of the bite and you don't tell the new owner or the shelter, this is a moral offense and could turn into a legal one if he bites again. Most owners who give up a dog that has a bite history are euthanized. It's the ugly truth. Most of the time, all they need is a strong leader and lots of structured training and they become the most awesome dog you could ever wish for. I believe your dog would fit into that category. He doesn't sound at all like he is difficult, just needs really strong boundaries with no exceptions.

I wish you the best - welcome to Doberman Chat, read through the many threads on training & behavior and ask all the questions you want.

 

[Ddski5]

Be me?

I would go back to every day training discipline and obedience- I would lock him down like it was day one. All good things including food comes from me.
- hand feed him breakfast, going through obedience commands. Sit, down, stay, long stay, heel, sit while quickly walking, place and hold, etc…over and over and over.
- if you work, then I would not feed him until I got home from work- then go through commands with food as a reward.
- if you do this consistently, he will understand quickly his role and position has been reset.
- I would do this for a week and then on 2nd week incorporate the daughter training and giving commands.
- Strider has to learn to respect your daughter as one of the leaders in the family.
- By doing this, not only are you recementing Strider’s discipline/obedience but also showing your husband that you are taking physical steps and time (with dtr) to solve the issue at hand.

Good luck

 

[AaylaK]

Welcome from Tampa Bay, FL!

I would check with your Homeowners Insurance as well. Not that you'll file a liability claim against yourself, but some homeowner policies go by "bite history," as does mine. If the dog bites someone, they may have to go. Like I say, you won't file a claim against yourself. But, if you need to file a claim for the medical treatment of your daughter, that might be a bit of an issue.

In FL, most homeowner policies have "dangerous breed" lists. Any dog on that list is prohibited in the house, and the company won't write a policy (or they'll cancel an existing policy) if a dog on that list is found in the home. Of course, dobies are almost always on those lists.

Hope it works out for you. I wouldn't get rid of the dog either for only one incident. But if it happens again, of if the dog bites one of your daughter's friends or something, you may have a decision to make.

Again, welcome to the forum.

Oh that is terrible. Fortunately our HOA is only for fencing and the street lights!

 

[AaylaK]

Be me?

I would go back to every day training discipline and obedience- I would lock him down like it was day one. All good things including food comes from me.
- hand feed him breakfast, going through obedience commands. Sit, down, stay, long stay, heel, sit while quickly walking, place and hold, etc…over and over and over.
- if you work, then I would not feed him until I got home from work- then go through commands with food as a reward.
- if you do this consistently, he will understand quickly his role and position has been reset.
- I would do this for a week and then on 2nd week incorporate the daughter training and giving commands.
- Strider has to learn to respect your daughter as one of the leaders in the family.
- By doing this, not only are you recementing Strider’s discipline/obedience but also showing your husband that you are taking physical steps and time (with dtr) to solve the issue at hand.

Good luck

That is what we are doing now. Cutting back on his freedoms until the obedience is back, and reinforcing basics and place. We also put new rules on him and the children. They have always taken turns feeding him, but this type of correction has only ever happened with food he wasn't allowed to have. He obeys them very well when it's feeding time and they can touch him and put their hands on him with no issues while he eats his food. He also doesn't have access to his food all day long, just in the morning and in the evening.

- Kids are now to come get us when they think he is doing something wrong instead of trying to correct him
- He is now not allowed in the kitchen during meal times at all
- The kids will now join us in his daily training sessions my husband and I do, and we will make it fun so there is a play aspect as well
- We are going to have the trainer we worked with come to the house and work with the children present as well so they have a full understanding and it's not just "mom's rules."

I was stressed because he obeys me very well, and my husband, and I know it is becuase they are smaller and growing with him. He is my absolute baby, so I appreciate the feedback and other ideas I didn't think about.

 

[AaylaK]

As @Oh Little Oji said there are really only 2 good solutions and they both have to be implemented: 100% management, meaning the dog and child (children) are never alone together and spaces in the house which are not accessible to the dog. If food is the main issue, I'd gate off the kitchen and not allow the kids or adults to take food in other rooms unless you have the dog tethered to you or otherwise under complete control. The other is no-fail obedience training. You can make it fun training if you find the right instructor. Food & ball rewards for sits, downs, stays, leave-it, etc. It stimulates their mind, gets them engaged and looking to you for answers.

The 3rd solution is rehoming and not favorable. I will say right now, any dog of any breed that has bitten a child is difficult to re-home. The liability will follow you wherever he goes. Municipal shelters won't re-home due to liability. If there is any record of the bite and you don't tell the new owner or the shelter, this is a moral offense and could turn into a legal one if he bites again. Most owners who give up a dog that has a bite history are euthanized. It's the ugly truth. Most of the time, all they need is a strong leader and lots of structured training and they become the most awesome dog you could ever wish for. I believe your dog would fit into that category. He doesn't sound at all like he is difficult, just needs really strong boundaries with no exceptions.

I wish you the best - welcome to Doberman Chat, read through the many threads on training & behavior and ask all the questions you want.

Yes, rehoming is the absolute last thing so I am glad I've been able to convince my husband to work again with the trainer. He's the sweetest tempered Dobbie in every way. We got too lenient I think with him and he definitely took advantage as any dog would. Thank you so much

 

[AaylaK]

Welcome from Ohio!

This is unfortunate. Our last Doberman lashed out at our daughter who was about 1 year old at the time. He was laying on the floor in a sunbeam and our daughter toddled over toward him. He got up in a very quick, irritated manner and (I happened to be watching) snapped and put his jaws around her tiny forearm. Thank God, he did not bite down, and in fact, he did not even make contact; but his jaws engulfed her forearm for a split second. These dogs have precision. I absolutely thought about getting rid of him – at least I considered that fate for a few minutes. I know it's a hard thing, and so many people will look down on you for ever rehoming a dog, but any harm coming to one of my children is unthinkable. We did not get rid of him, and I told my daughter to never go near him again when he is in a sunbeam.

Dobermans, thankfully, rarely maul anyone. They usually deliver one bite. I am sorry your daughter received a bite. That is unacceptable and I understand your husband's position.

Can you avoid the situation? Can you prevent it from happening in the future? That may be key. Your daughter is only going to grow older and larger, that's the good news. Dogs naturally respect younger, smaller people less.

I would put up gates to keep your Dobe completely out of the kitchen. With each of my Dobes, I never had a food stealing problem, or a counter climbing problem. I know they are capable of being trained such that they won't do this. That said, I have never been in a remedial situation with a Dobe on this matter. I train them strictly from the start, so it has never arisen. My point is: We now have two dogs in our home and neither is a Dobe, or even a purebred working dog. They both are incapable of what Dobes are capable of in terms of training and behavior expectations. Our almost 3 y.o. dog continues to sniff the dining table and he has stolen food on at least two occasions. He is tall enough to do it. Our 6 month old puppy is terrible about this. We had no control over his life until about 4 months, as he is a rescue. I think he was completely untrained, and we don't know if he was separated too early from his litter. He has problems. He is a big food seeker and will steal and try to steal food. Last Frriday, we caught him with front paws on kitchen counter lapping up mashed potatoes from a tupperware. That, finally, was the straw that broke the camel's back and got my wife to agree to gating him out of the kitchen. Our older, bigger dog is simply trained to wait for permission before entering the kitchen, but if left alone and without it gated off, he will enter the kitchen.

So, I'd say prevent the triggering situation, and keep your girl working with him on basic training. Did you say you have her feed him? I would train your Dobe to do a sit-stay (issued by her) while she goes and gets his food and comes and sets it down. Then, she should properly release him from the stay so he can dig in. I would have your Dobe wait before entering and exiting through at least exterior doorways – wait until the humans pass through first, then he receives the release command to pass.I would not let him on any furniture, especially beds. I would not let your daughter lay or sit on the floor with your Dobe around. You don't want him physically above her level. Don't play tug games with him, and don't ever let him bite at her clothing or hair.

At the same time, if you have to rehome him, you will not receive judgement from me. Children are way more important than dogs.

I wish you success.

Thank you for all of this, it is so helpful. We contacted the trainer we worked with and he is going to come in and help with the situation and help train the kids too with the dog.

Yes, both kids feed him and have him sit/stay and wait for his food, and he obeys. It is just food that we eat he has this issue with.

No more cuddling in bed; that was the one thing I allowed with him at the foot of my bed and the kids cuddling with me, but we put a stop to that for now, and he has to stay in place out of the kitchen during meal prep and meal times.

The worst part is tug games are his favorite; he is not a fan of catch/fetch so only my son, oddly the youngest, any my husband play tug with him the most, and my son lets go when Strider begins to really tug hard, and its taught him to be gentler with him during tug play.

These dogs are so smart! I am sure this is something we will be able to get handled, and you all helped me feel a little more confident it was managable!

 

[DD4MSpock]

Oh that is terrible. Fortunately our HOA is only for fencing and the street lights!

I wish our HOA were just about fencing and street lights. They control a whole lot more (i.e. what color you can paint your house, what roofing you can use, what exterior landscaping you can do, what vehicles you can leave in your outer driveway at night, when you have to retract your trash containers, etc. etc.). Thankfully, the one thing they do not control (not officially anyway) is what breed of dog you can have. It's the FL based insurance companies that do that. And that is because, with the exception of the company I use, most "national" based insurers don't write policies in FL anymore due to the weather losses. The FL based companies are, pretty much all that's left, except for mine. Even mine doesn't write "everywhere" in FL but, so far, I've been lucky. Hope to stay lucky.

And one of their (FL insurers) really big rules is, "no dangerous breeds" (including dobies, GSDs, Rotties, Pit Bulls, etc etc. ). I guess they figure that most people living in FL are "Seniors" that wouldn't have large, dangerous breeds but tiny little "pocket dogs," that the seniors can control better. The FL insurers feeling they could get away with that as a way to limit liability.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I wish our HOA were just about fencing and street lights. They control a whole lot more (i.e. what color you can paint your house, what roofing you can use, what exterior landscaping you can do, what vehicles you can leave in your outer driveway at night, when you have to retract your trash containers, etc. etc.). Thankfully, the one thing they do not control (not officially anyway) is what breed of dog you can have. It's the FL based insurance companies that do that. And that is because, with the exception of the company I use, most "national" based insurers don't write policies in FL anymore due to the weather losses. The FL based companies are, pretty much all that's left, except for mine. Even mine doesn't write "everywhere" in FL but, so far, I've been lucky. Hope to stay lucky.

And one of their (FL insurers) really big rules is, "no dangerous breeds" (including dobies, GSDs, Rotties, Pit Bulls, etc etc. ). I guess they figure that most people living in FL are "Seniors" that wouldn't have large, dangerous breeds but tiny little "pocket dogs," that the seniors can control better. The FL insurers feeling they could get away with that as a way to limit liability.

I know it's off-topic, but I am for some of those controls. I would not like to pay an HOA fee, but...

I don't much care the color people paint their houses within reason (but white can cause quite a glare in sunshine) but I do care that people pull their trash & recycling can in in a timely fashion, and ESPECIALLY that they don't set them out blocking the sidewalks! Then there are people who park their cars blocking the sidewalks; and of course the vast majority of people drive too fast. I bet your HOA does not attempt to get involved in speeding. People cherish their "right"to drive however they want.

 

[DD4MSpock]

I know it's off-topic, but I am for some of those controls. I would not like to pay an HOA fee, but...

I don't much care the color people paint their houses within reason (but white can cause quite a glare in sunshine) but I do care that people pull their trash & recycling can in in a timely fashion, and ESPECIALLY that they don't set them out blocking the sidewalks! Then there are people who park their cars blocking the sidewalks; and of course the vast majority of people drive too fast. I bet your HOA does not attempt to get involved in speeding. People cherish their "right"to drive however they want.

PM forthcoming.... In the spirit of keeping it "on topic."

 

[Ddski5]

That is what we are doing now. Cutting back on his freedoms until the obedience is back, and reinforcing basics and place. We also put new rules on him and the children. They have always taken turns feeding him, but this type of correction has only ever happened with food he wasn't allowed to have. He obeys them very well when it's feeding time and they can touch him and put their hands on him with no issues while he eats his food. He also doesn't have access to his food all day long, just in the morning and in the evening.

- Kids are now to come get us when they think he is doing something wrong instead of trying to correct him
- He is now not allowed in the kitchen during meal times at all
- The kids will now join us in his daily training sessions my husband and I do, and we will make it fun so there is a play aspect as well
- We are going to have the trainer we worked with come to the house and work with the children present as well so they have a full understanding and it's not just "mom's rules."

I was stressed because he obeys me very well, and my husband, and I know it is becuase they are smaller and growing with him. He is my absolute baby, so I appreciate the feedback and other ideas I didn't think about.

Well good for you. I really appreciate folks that identify the problem and then set forth with a solution. I am an absolute sapp for the Doberman breed…I think the biggest issue is them understanding our communication and boundaries set forth. Both being us humans fault, not theirs.
Some Dobermans are sharper, harder than others…it is our job to figure out how to shape it to our lifestyle.
I really think you get it, but some folks don’t understand that a Doberman is a Doberman, not an average happy go lucky dog.
Boundaries, training and expectations is what conforms them to our lifestyle. Once this happens, they are an absolute honorable being to be by your side.

 

[Ravenbird]

We got too lenient I think with him and he definitely took advantage as any dog would

I thank you for being so honest and really wanting to keep & improve your dog. Dobermans, it seems like, have a higher rate of taking advantage. Think of the old saying "give an inch and they take a mile", yes, but also with them it's "ignore it once and it will happen 100 x more to see if you'll ignore it again". They are notoriously smart and test constantly to see "if you really meant it when you said don't counter-surf". Like a scientist conducting an experiment over & over to see if it is consistent! I think @Ddski5 coined a phrase here about being consistent and persistent in your training - it's especially true with this breed.

 

[Two Dobes]

And remember that this will be an ongoing process....even as he matures into a 2 or 3 year old. Some of these Dobermans are extremely head strong, and sweet when they want to be, but stubborn as all get up too. So the more consistent you all are with his training, and not 'giving an inch' he will remain a beautiful family companion. It is alot of work, but you know it will be worth it. It is a lifetime of training....to remind them that they are not in charge.
You mentioned that you are stopping the dog in the bed for now, make sure you don't go back to allowing him to get in your bed too early. That is one of those areas similar to the kitchen counter....when you say "OFF" they should get down immediately....no 'back talk' growling, snapping etc. They need to comply.
Glad you are here! Keep us posted on his journey!