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Featured Are we watching the extinction of a breed?

Discussion in 'Doberman Health Issues and Questions' started by FredC, Jun 5, 2016.

  1. kashi

    kashi Hot Topics Subscriber

    I spoke to my vet here and in my part of the world (Walvis Bay Namibia) he feels GSDS are first when it comes to genetic health problems and short lives, then great danes and Boerboels (yes Boerboels are super popular here and inbred AF) then probably ridgebacks.

    I know Dobes are not a healthy breed and I have watched the Doccies and read the reports its very very sad indeed. DCM is a huge issue in the breed. I wish that the kennel unions and registration bodies as well as breed clubs placed more emphasis on health and less emphasis on show titles, reward breeders for health tested and long lived lines perhaps. The problem for me lies at the foot of the clubs and the breeders. Owners are last in line when it comes to the breeds overall health. BYB are a huge problem and I wish there were stricter rules and regulations in place but failing that we will probably see the demise of more and more breeds as this goes on. We can blame the dog food, the treats, the wifi signals but when you inbreed that heavily for that long you are going to have genetic problems that the best food and the best supplements just can't fix.

     
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  2. Anubis81

    Anubis81 New Member

    THIS IS EXACTLY what I tried to defend in another thread here, and I was threatened with a ban as they deemed me too argumentative when all I care about is producing HEALTHY dogs. They think just being a reputable breeder will fix the problem. NOTHING fixes inbreeding ad infinitum!
     
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  3. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber



    I think the problem is terminology. I know of few breeders that do any inbreeding. Inbreeding is the reproduction of offspring from the mating of 2 closely related dogs, in this case. I'm not sure that is what you are talking about. Weren't you refering to mixing breeds to create a breed?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
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  4. Anubis81

    Anubis81 New Member


    Actually, that's the term when applied to humans. Any severe endogamy, or mating into the breed, group, results in the same thing: a reduced gene pool. Eventually, everyone gets more and more genetically closer thus increasing incidence of endemic hereditary conditions and the occurrence of new ones by bringing recessive genes to the fore at some point.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. NikiL02

    NikiL02 Formerly Nlr02 $ Forum Donor $

    Are you suggesting that there should be no breeds?
     
  6. Anubis81

    Anubis81 New Member

    May I suggest in the most respectful manner that you read the actual article posted here originally and the suggestions already made instead of having us reiterate what was already said?

    The suggestion was that the genetic pool of a breed must from time to time be broadened. It makes perfect biological sense. Breeding the same lines over and over again, creates problems.

    'Responsible breeding' doesn't solve the problem. It kicks the can down the road. You always meet it so long as you remain on the same path.
     
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  7. NikiL02

    NikiL02 Formerly Nlr02 $ Forum Donor $

    I did. I asked you a question otherwise.
     
  8. Anubis81

    Anubis81 New Member

    And for the third time, I repeat: Breeds are fine. But the limited genetic pool from which we are currently drawing is running dry. A solution would be to allow dogs that don't meet every single AKC requirement and standard to breed provided they are genetically tested and found to be sound. Another thing that makes sense for the long term survival of the breed is to introduce crossbreed blood every couple of generations (again, only genetically healthy animals) in order to diversify the gene pool.

    This is what the report also suggests. I hope it is now clear where I stand on the subject.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. NikiL02

    NikiL02 Formerly Nlr02 $ Forum Donor $

    Crystal, thank you.
     
  10. Anubis81

    Anubis81 New Member

    No, actually I was not. I do not want to create a breed. I want to sort the genetic mess inherent in the current closely related lines. I want the Doberman to survive. Please read through all my posts. I have been deliberately explanatory at length.
     
  11. Prushanks

    Prushanks Hot Topics Subscriber

    Hi! And welcome from NY! :ntmy:

    I have read through both the threads, [in the other, starting from your initial response] and I have to say, in weeding through the back and forth, I do see where you are going with this. It is very interesting and I do agree with what you and the above article are saying. I don't doubt that others agree as well. I also personally don't particularly care about the show ring and titles and whatnot. I understand that it is seen as a way for breeders to "prove fitness" for breeding - in effect taking on the "natural selection" process from nature, as humans have determined what each breed's "purpose" and "look" should be, so with dogs now, it is the "human selection process." As such, many diverse and wonderful breeds have been developed [and in my opinion some that shouldn't have]. I also do not find titles etc as meaningful as health and longevity. In choosing my breeder, didn't care how many or how few titles her dogs had, and didn't play any part in my decision. I just look at the winning GSDs of today and it sickens me. Even my Tank - bred in the Czech Republic purely for working purposes isn't immune.. He luckily isn't nearly as deformed as many others, but may have to retire in the next year due to weakening in his back and hind quarters - he is only 8.5!!

    My grandfather was a master breeder of working Walker Foxhounds and Beagles. [My father also bred pigeons on his own as a hobby growing up!] He and my father raised, trained, and meticulously bred for purpose - and people from all over the south came to him for dogs purely from word of mouth as the Internet was not around in those days! He was not involved in showing and whatnot but rather bred his dogs based on their ability to work and perform, health and temperament. He was very keenly observant of the traits he wanted/didn't want in his dogs and weeded out the unfit.
    [Btw @Rits - I have to thank you for reopening my eyes about the fundamentals of breeding (RE: the carrier to carrier example in another thread a while back). It really helped me to break out of that box I had closed myself into]

    Anyway, I do see and understand your point and in a way I don't see it as much different than what any breed founder was trying to do originally. And as long as it is done carefully, thoughtfully by someone with the betterment of the breed in their heart and mind [and not dollar bills], I would indeed be very interested and curious in the process and the final product of a healthier, improved Doberman Pinscher.

    On a side note- When I first read through the start of this cross-thread discussion I think the point your message may have initially gotten lost as the first post in the other thread may have come across as if you were offended and writing from a defensive mindset. I gathered from reading that you found the term "mutt" offensive as it can be said as a way that implies that they are some how less than or not as good as a "purebred," which I can understand. However, I do not think most people, and certainly most of those involved in this discussion meant it in a derogatory way, I think it is just the commonplace term we all know for dog with a diverse genetic background. [Holy Crap.. Am I on the PC Canine Train? :p]
    That said, I reread your posts from the perspective of initiating thought-provoking discussion and I can see that it from that perspective now as well. All in all, I think as @Tropicalbri's said this may have been a miscommunication/miss understanding [you did say that right Bri? I really don't want to search through the chaos to check:blush-alt:].
    I find it harder to convey tone in writing without emojis or flowery words! :p I also think this being a breed specific forum, even though it's a friendly one, there will naturally be more push-back about something that could potentially be harmful for that which we all here love...
    Anyway, hope I haven't offended!
     
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  12. Anubis81

    Anubis81 New Member

    @Prushanks

    Thank you for your response. Whether we like to admit it or not, there is often in many people (not meant personally for people here I have not had the chance to meet) a sense of haughtiness and arrogance, dare I say, vanity in owning and trading in 'breeds'. It is a mentality that creeps up on one without even realizing it.

    The beauty pageant that many of these dog shows have become has fostered that mentality too. For many, their dogs are status symbols. And unfortunately many times, the word 'mutt' is not used as neutrally as you think. I did not take offense at the term personally. But I am opposed to the attitudes I have often encountered when the word was used to disparage a non purebred dog. As the study published here shows, we may need those dogs to save our breed after all.

    So I am calling for a change in the mindset of breeders. Not only champion lines that adhere to conforming to AKC standards should be bred exclusively. It is simply not healthy. I am glad you understand my point. I am an owner, nay FATHER of Dobermans. I care about the breed just like everyone else here. But our 'golden standards' are, whether we like it or not, currently affecting the breed in the most negative of ways. The sanctity of those standards must be challenged and reviewed from time to time.

    Let's be honest, the first Dobermans did not look much like the American Dobermans alive today, so we HAVE been doing it already. We have been altering them for generations but we have been doing so in ways that are harmful, even with the best intentions in mind. Facts cannot be debated against. They should be understood irrespective of what our ego dictates.
     
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  13. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I keep up with a Doberman out-cross project where members are trying to save the breed by bringing in new genetic material into the breed. Of coarse, they are not sanctioned by anyone important in the dog world, but someone has to try. The goal is to out-cross to a healthy breed, and then breed back to the Doberman standard for 3 generations, thereby adding in the new genome to the breed.

    If AKC would just open the stud books we could make great progress, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

    From all the reading I have done about this issue, and I have read a lot, the Doberman could be gone from the world stage in less than 50 years - probably sooner if something is not done. Just another 20 years of breeding popular Sires and Dams is going to escalate this issue beyond repair - and it is happening in all popular breeds.
     
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  14. KacieGrl1222

    KacieGrl1222 Novitiate

    Thank you Fred so much for this thread. My son purchased 2 Dobermans from an online national breeding company Greenfield *******, I'll try to be brief, they were born 4 weeks apart, same fathers. King came first, the breeders for an additional fee cropped his ears. Big mistake! When we picked him up there were only 7-8 stitches per ear and the one had to be fixed at the ER Vet hospital ($1,200) more we didn't expect. Our Kacie born 12/21/16, was beautiful as well and WE had her ears cropped by a real surgeon and everything went fine. I noticed Kacie would breathe extra hard at times for no reason. The vet said she was fine. I never new of this DCM or I would have thoroughly had them check both their hearts. I fell in love with both of these dogs my son I kept king with him in case he stayed with me at my home with my husband and I. She slept with me she went everywhere with me she was my best friend my everything . On The morning of April 12 of this year I just 14 weeks old during her morning nap I went to wake her up and she was going. You can only imagine my horror my distraught and my grief to this very day I blame myself for not doing the research prior, because I asked my son about their health history he showed me on the breeders website the two Doberman disorders but never published and to this day still will not publish DCM the number one killer. I have a swab test going out for king at the North Carolina University of veterinary medicine for the two mutation genes. I know king of test positive for one of them because of Kacie. Needless to say the company in the breeders refused to return my calls and owner of the company has actually disconnected his cell phone. These Amish families don't care what they are putting families through, the pain they put our family through and others from her litter, now and in the future and there's nothing anyone can do the stop them?? I haven't slept in my room since she died, I wear her little collar around my wrist everyday. Not one hour goes by I don't grieve for her. She was a baby! I can't even see this screen through tears.....God bless everyone who has suffered as I have and will forever.

     

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  15. JanS

    JanS DCF Owner Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I'm so very sorry for your tragic loss. :sorrow: Unfortunately there are some bad breeders out there who are only in it for the $$$ and it's tragic for the puppy buyers when they have to suffer such heartbreaking losses. :(
     
  16. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    I hope that you will stick around here.
    Great people here, great dogs. In some ways this place helped me heal after our own loss.
     

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